Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

[Marynator]

I feel aesthetic appearance is just art design. Like you and I could both be in an art class together, and we're both painting the same thing, but yours might look very different than mine, but that doesn't mean you and I painted something different, right?

My feeling is saying one's "kelvin" and one's "prime" because of art style is like saying you believe when Nero (thanks @Jinn!) came back, some sort of space ripple went out both forwards and backwards and changed how everything in the universe looks, and I don't believe that for a moment. I mean things just look different, right? And Kelvin isn't simply "not the same as prime", I totally could be wrong, but I understand Kelvin means "a split timeline caused when Nero came back in time and he changes history, creating a parallel universe", so to be Kelvin you'd specifically have to be in his parallel universe, which looks exactly the same as prime aesthetically, just that in 2009+ our show creators are using different artistic style than in 1960s, right?

 

[XCV330]

From a real life perspective, we're told that the moon looks very different in Star Trek First Contact due to the massive lunar colonies visible from Earth. Multiple shots of the moon in various other Star Trek works show it looking exactly the same as 20th century Earth, no lunar colonies visible at all.

RIKER: Look at that!
COCHRANE: What, you don't have a moon in the twenty-fourth century?
RIKER: Sure we do. It looks a lot different. There are fifty million people living on the moon in my time. You can see Tycho City, New Berlin, even Lake Armstrong on a day like this.

Like the Kelvin/TOS Earth, these are just things we're going to have to let slide, I think. Otherwise various episodes are in alternate universes too.

See the supposed moon in 2371: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/File:Moon.jpg

Agree. ENT does show moon colonies, naturally it would have been much smaller, but of course ENT was filmed after First Contact. I've said before, ENT is a spin-off of First Contact, in many ways. Retcons like that done bother me at all.

People could just enjoy the shows, be glad a bit more detail is added now and then. Visual continuity rarely lasts longer than the current series when its made, and sometimes not even then.

 

[Tuskin38]

DSC showed city lights on the moon.

 

[Yistaan]

DSC showed city lights on the moon.

I think all those primitive moon shots in "future" Treks were Section 31, Klingons, or Romulans causing blackouts to mess with the Lunar colonies.

 

[Starfury]

DSC showed city lights on the moon.

Swamp gas

 

[fireproof78]

because if Eric Bana never changed things and created a new parallel timeline, Kirk's father would've still worn his same uniform and worked on his same ship, and Spock would've still gone to a school that looked just the same, right?

Yes, indeed. Even Spock's life was largely similar, and we see him rejecting the Vulcan Science Academy in favor of Starfleet. Now, the outcome is different, but the fact that they branch from a similar trunk would suggest a common visual history, both from a design perspective and an in-universe perspective.

 

[BillJ]

...some sort of space ripple went out both forwards and backwards and changed how everything in the universe looks...

Exactly how Simon Pegg explains the Abramsverse, IIRC.

I feel aesthetic appearance is just art design.

Doesn't this shortchange a lot of talented people who worked on the franchise over the years?

 

[BillJ]

Sure, we experience time as a contiguous series of cascading events but perception and reality aren’t always the same thing. Spock’s incursion from the Prime Universe created a multidimensional reality shift. The rift in space/time created an entirely new reality in all directions, top to bottom, from the Big Bang to the end of everything. As such this reality was, is and always will be subtly different from the Prime Universe. I don’t believe for one second that Gene Roddenberry wouldn’t have loved the idea of an alternate reality (Mirror, Mirror anyone?).

https://io9.gizmodo.com/simon-pegg-has-a-canonical-explanation-for-why-sulu-is-1783511576

 

[Jinn]

I love how it says "canonical" in the title when it clearly isn't

 

[BillJ]

I love how it says "canonical" in the title when it clearly isn't

Well, "Mirror, Mirror" is canon.

 

[Jinn]

I love how it says "canonical" in the title when it clearly isn't

To add: Also, there was really no need to explain Sulu ending up with a man, he could either be bi or gay, as we never saw him with a woman in prime, IIRC. And before someone comes along and says "He can't be gay because he sexually assaulted Uhura in "Mirror Mirror"", that's a whole nother universe, so it's a criticism that by the logic of his theory wouldn't fly anyway.

 

[Jinn]

Well, "Mirror, Mirror" is canon.

OR IS IT???

*debate starter*

 

[Yistaan]

To add: Also, there was really no need to explain Sulu ending up with a man, he could either be bi or gay, as we never saw him with a woman in prime, IIRC. And before someone comes along and says "He can't be gay because he sexually assaulted Uhura in "Mirror Mirror"", that's a whole nother universe, so it's a criticism that by the logic of his theory wouldn't fly anyway.

Sulu was drooling over Ilia in the extended director's cut of the Motion Picture I believe. Also, TAS had an episode where he expressed interest in women.

I just assume Kelvin timeline Sulu is gay because he's a genetically different person than his prime counterpart, having presumably been born after 2233. Same goes for Chekov being genetically different (Kelvin Chekov was born 2241, Prime in 2245).

Only those with confirmed conception dates before Nero's incursion are genetically the same (Spock, McCoy, Scotty, and Kirk)

 

[Kor]

"Canon to the right of me..."

I think STDsc kind of looks like somebody removed all the light and color from the Kelvinverse.

Kor

 

[Jinn]

Sulu was drooling over Ilia in the extended director's cut of the Motion Picture I believe.

Well, I'm not sure if I accept extender cuts as canon, but...

Also, TAS had an episode where he expressed interest in women.

Well, I don't remember this, then again I don't remember TAS at all so this is most likely correct. He can still be bi, though.

 

[BillJ]

Sulu was drooling over Ilia in the extended director's cut of the Motion Picture I believe.

That can be chalk up to the Deltan pheromones. Or maybe Sulu swings both ways?

 

[Yistaan]

Well, I'm not sure if I accept extender cuts as canon, but...

Well, I don't remember this, then again I don't remember TAS at all so this is most likely correct. He can still be bi, though.

The extended cut of Motion Picture is likely more canon as its depiction of Vulcan with no moons lines up with canon more than the initial cut which had at least 1 moon.

Also, the TAS scene is described here: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Hikaru_Sulu#An_imaginary_girl

 

[BillJ]

The extended cut of Motion Picture is likely more canon as its depiction of Vulcan with no moons lines up with canon more than the initial cut which had at least 1 moon.

It is all the same canon. Canon is just the work. Nothing has more weight that anything else.

 

[fireproof78]

Doesn't this shortchange a lot of talented people who worked on the franchise over the years?

Why don't we ask them? Would it not be appropriate to consider their perspective as to whether or not they consider their designs as part of previously designed work or design continuity in terms of canon?

 

[Jinn]

Also, the TAS scene is described here: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Hikaru_Sulu#An_imaginary_girl

Thanks