Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

[Tuskin38]

Perhaps Terran engineers were so preoccupied with trying to reverse engineer the Defiant, they didn't come up with their own innovations, they just copied simpler stuff from the historical database, which would have included the Walker Class and other designs.

This issue has existed since Enterprise Season 4, since those episodes were written as prequels to Mirror, Mirror.

 

[Lord Garth]

Something else popped into my head...

Did a ship from the future come back to the 22nd century in our universe and affect how the TOS era used to look?

There was a theory posted on here once -- not by me -- that FC was the beginning of when the look of things changed. That the Borg Sphere going back in time led to a Butterfly Effect, that gave us the look of ENT, the look of the Kelvin in 2233 (which then splintered off even further), and now the look of DSC.

Before someone asks about DS9's "Trials and Tribble-ations": that episode takes place before the Uniform Change. So it probably takes place before First Contact. "But what if the Enterprise-E had the new uniforms first?" Maybe. But Worf wouldn't have and Sisko refers to the "recent Borg invasion" in "In Purgatory's Shadow", after the Uniform Change, and it heavily implies FC just happened.

So the DS9 crew intermingled with the original Enterprise crew before First Contact and before the look of the TOS Era changed. As for why the look of the TNG Era didn't change? Once again, Suspension Of Disbelief and the Law Of Averages. Everything came out in the wash and worked its way back to looking like how it does in TNG/DS9/VOY.

There we are.

 

[BillJ]

Can it really be "Prime" if there are a bunch of timeline changes that effect everything? Isn't it just easier to call it a multiverse and the Discovery timeline is one of many?

 

[Lord Garth]

Can it really be "Prime" if there are a bunch of timeline changes that effect everything? Isn't it just easier to call it a multiverse and the Discovery timeline is one of many?

This is a good point. On another note, I feel like I just had two Doc Brown moments in a row. So I need to recover.

 

[Jinn]

Can it really be "Prime" if there are a bunch of timeline changes that effect everything? Isn't it just easier to call it a multiverse and the Discovery timeline is one of many?

Well, if you take into account the number of time travel instances in Trek the term "prime" because meaningless pretty quickly (six episodes, by my estimate).

 

[BillJ]

Well, if you take into account the number of time travel instances in Trek the term "prime" because meaningless pretty quickly (six episodes, by my estimate).

Six episodes in TOS, or overall? If overall, I thought the total would be much higher.

 

[Jinn]

Six episodes in TOS, or overall? If overall, I thought the total would be much higher.

Well, the sixth episode of TOS involves time travel, so everything after that episode is not in the original timeline. If we'd start with Enterprise we'd change the timeline during the first episode because of Future Guy.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

they just copied simpler stuff from the historical database, which would have included the Walker Class

Damn that’s a good point! I never thought of it the other way around from the MU perspective.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

that FC was the beginning of when the look of things changed

I’ve heard of that theory - it becomes more compelling if we assume the nx-01 design was influenced by Zefram Cochrane seeing the Enterprise E through the telescope (unless that was a predestination paradox - he needed to see the E so that starfleet ships developed that way... Captain Janeway was right about time travel!!!)

Before someone asks about DS9's "Trials and Tribble-ations": that episode takes place before the Uniform Change.

I think the “trials” stardate is before FC - I should check I guess

Can it really be "Prime" if there are a bunch of timeline changes that effect everything? Isn't it just easier to call it a multiverse and the Discovery timeline is one of many?

No. Yes. No. I don’t know.
You could argue that Kelvin is still in the prime *universe* just in an altered timeline.

Yes. That is a multiverse.

 

[Jinn]

I think the “trials” stardate is before FC - I should check I guess

Fortunately "Trials and Tribble-ations" doesn't have a stardate, but it comes fairly early in the season while First Contact's stardate places it in November, so we can reasonably assume that First Contact is the latter, timeline-wise.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

Fortunately "Trials and Tribble-ations" doesn't have a stardate, but it comes fairly early in the season while First Contact's stardate places it in November, so we can reasonably assume that First Contact is the latter, timeline-wise.

Huh. Well there’s my excuse to rewatch “trials” (like I needed one!). I forgot there wasn’t a stardate in it.

 

[Lord Garth]

Throwback Thursday (because it's Thursday!): It irked me a little, in 1997, when First Contact was referenced in "In Purgatory's Shadow" since FC had a Stardate of 50893. I thought it was great that they acknowledged the film but I also thought, "Shouldn't First Contact take place toward the end of the season?" Then I shrugged it off as whatever.

 

[Jinn]

Huh. Well there’s my excuse to rewatch “trials” (like I needed one!). I forgot there wasn’t a stardate in it.

Okay, I wasn't entirely accurate, there was a stardate in it, but it's a 23rd century one, so it's not helpful. Rewatching it is fun though

 

[Jinn]

Throwback Thursday (because it's Thursday!): It irked me a little, in 1997, when First Contact was referenced in "In Purgatory's Shadow" since FC had a Stardate of 50893. I thought it was great that they acknowledged the film but I also thought, "Shouldn't First Contact take place toward the end of the season?" Then I shrugged it off as whatever.

I think I rationalized it as a reference to the Battle of Wolf 354 Borg Invasion as opposed to the one in First Contact.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

Okay, I wasn't entirely accurate, there was a stardate in it, but it's a 23rd century one, so it's not helpful. Rewatching it is fun though

Well I do love classic 23rd century design... black finish... silver hilights...

 

[Jinn]

Well I do love classic 23rd century design... black finish... silver hilights...

Yeah, those four digit stardates just had a much nicer texture than that modern bullshit.

 

[Lord Garth]

I think I rationalized it as a reference to the Battle of Wolf 354 Borg Invasion as opposed to the one in First Contact.

In-Universe it would make Picard's line in Insurrection make more sense then, when talking about the losses the Federation has taken to the Borg and the Dominion, if FC wasn't an isolated incident.

As opposed to In-Production when in a meta-sense they meant the Borg on VOY and the Dominion on DS9 and had Picard doing some stealth cross-promotion of the series.

 

[Jinn]

Yeah, those four digit stardates just had a much nicer texture than that modern bullshit.

As a matter of fact the four digit stardates that go up and down are also much for fun to put in a timeline and figure out how it all works, as opposed to the boring 24th century 1000 stardate units=one year approach. When you finally got all the months etc for the episodes down it's also a lotmore satisfying than use the stardate culculator in the 24th century...

 

[ITDUDE]

You could argue that Kelvin is still in the prime *universe* just in an altered timeline.

Yes. That is a multiverse.

According to my own theory:
- TNG/DS9/VOY pre FC are all one universe (Prime) where Zefram Cochrane flew the Phoenix without Borg/E-E interference
- Events of FC created alternate past, where most of Cochrane's crew was killed during Borg attack, E-E crew helped him rebuild the Phoenix and he knows some events of the future (that most likely had some effect on ship design decisions). This timeline creates new universe, let's call it "Enterprise" universe/timeline which leads to NX-01 being a thing (don't you wonder why we never heard of NX-01 before in Prime? And TATV is not canon, anyone who brings it up will be thrown out the airlock). At some point later in this universe USS Kelvin is built, then much later Romulus is destroyed and that's when Nero comes back in time and creates yet another timeline/universe, the Kelvin universe.
-STD forked from either Prime or Enterprise timeline, probably 50+ years before USS Kelvin was built (since we don't have any ships that are like Prime nor Kelvin universe)

So we have 4 universes/timelines (Prime/Enterprise/Kelvin/Discoverse) plus no reason to think that each one doesn't have a corresponding MU (so about 8 universes we know off)
And it's not that far fetched. Within Star Trek we have actually seen this:

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[jaime]

According to my own theory:
- TNG/DS9/VOY pre FC are all one universe (Prime) where Zefram Cochrane flew the Phoenix without Borg/E-E interference
- Events of FC created alternate past, where most of Cochrane's crew was killed during Borg attack, E-E crew helped him rebuild the Phoenix and he knows some events of the future (that most likely had some effect on ship design decisions). This timeline creates new universe, let's call it "Enterprise" universe/timeline which leads to NX-01 being a thing (don't you wonder why we never heard of NX-01 before in Prime? And TATV is not canon, anyone who brings it up will be thrown out the airlock). At some point later in this universe USS Kelvin is built, then much later Romulus is destroyed and that's when Nero comes back in time and creates yet another timeline/universe, the Kelvin universe.
-STD forked from either Prime or Enterprise timeline, probably 50+ years before USS Kelvin was built (since we don't have any ships that are like Prime nor Kelvin universe)

So we have 4 universes/timelines (Prime/Enterprise/Kelvin/Discoverse) plus no reason to think that each one doesn't have a corresponding MU (so about 8 universes we know off)
And it's not that far fetched. Within Star Trek we have actually seen this:

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The problem is, Trek doesn’t entirely embrace the multiverse approach (each has a different quantum signature) and instead embraces a sort of unfolding approach. Sometimes you get bubbles...which makes sense from a conservation of energy way of thinking. Small bubbles (like the time loop the Bozeman gets stuck in, even smaller from the enterprise perspective) sometimes you get huge ones (city on the edge of forever, the universe as a result of the trial in all good things) where the universe might take eons to curve back onto its ‘natural’ path (or not all...in which case, it is essentially destroyed and replaced entirely. A popped bubble.) The rules of time travel, as presented in Trek, do not support skipping grooves and timelines as such...hence, Gabriel Bell ends up literally being Sisko, but it nudges the universe back on track. There’s a bubble where he didn’t look like sisko, but since the entirety of history is unaffected by the simple change (due to sisko playing the role) it just carries on as it was. That’s why the KT has to be a different universe (and is...because otherwise, future Shatner Kirk is present in its 20th century, S is future Janeway, both from incompatible futures. And Picard..and everyone tbh. There’s a lot of time travel. The enterprise that helps Gary seven save the Earth in the sixties doesn’t exist in kelvin Trek, so it would destroy itself and create a paradox. Picard can’t save first contact there, because he would die at verifiable three without Shatner Kirk. But that’s ok, as the Borg wouldn’t stop it, because it never happens, because Gary Seven fails so...everyone join in the O’brien Mantra now please....) being interfered with not by time travel, but by cross-universe travel. KT is a mess of damaged info from Prime, in exactly the same way the MU is by the time of DSC.
It’s easy. Every other Trek is Prime, because that’s the way it’s unfolded, in universe and production wise. Is DSC a bubble? Could be. The changes could be. Is ENT a bubble? Highly likely.