Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

[lawman]

Actually Star Trek actually supports and recontextualises many judeo-christian religious lessons. The Federation is based on ‘love thy neighbour’ and ‘do unto others’...

Those are just basic principles of moral philosophy, not specifically religious, much less Judeo-Christian.

...and there’s plenty of evidence that allows it to be read as a future where religion still exists and has some use for it’s peoples.

This, I agree with. But that's just an artifact of the Federation being a free society, like the United States, that sees value in letting people believe what they wish without interference. That doesn't mean any of those beliefs are necessarily of value on their merits, much less that their truth claims are valid.

There’s the ambiguous... the ‘son’ worshippers...

Aack. The most wince-inducing line from an already terrible episode!...

There’s the alien races with their religions, from the not so similar beliefs of the Bajorans...

To be honest, I found all of the "Bajoran religion" aspects of DS9 deadly dull (and ideologically incoherent), and thought those story elements significantly undermined both Kira and Sisko as characters. But YMMV.

Having met people who have been traumatized from a young age and had to rely on people outside their family to survive, I cannot help but empathize with her and her struggles to find her identity.

But even outside of Trek, the character trope of a protagonist who was orphaned and raised by surrogate parents is literally as old as fiction. Indeed, I'd venture that it's far more commonplace in fiction than IRL. It's been milked dry. What new insights does it have to offer? (I'm sure some real people can in fact relate to the circumstance, of course. But they're a vanishingly small percentage of the overall audience.)

 

[jaime]

Those are just basic principles of moral philosophy, not specifically religious, much less Judeo-Christian.


This, I agree with. But that's just an artifact of the Federation being a free society, like the United States, that sees value in letting people believe what they wish without interference. That doesn't mean any of those beliefs are necessarily of value on their merits, much less that their truth claims are valid.


Aack. The most wince-inducing line from an already terrible episode!...


To be honest, I found all of the "Bajoran religion" aspects of DS9 deadly dull (and ideologically incoherent), and thought those story elements significantly undermined both Kira and Sisko as characters. But YMMV.


But even outside of Trek, the character trope of a protagonist who was orphaned and raised by surrogate parents is literally as old as fiction. Indeed, I'd venture that it's far more commonplace in fiction than IRL. It's been milked dry. What new insights does it have to offer? (I'm sure some real people can in fact relate to the circumstance, of course. But they're a vanishingly small percentage of the overall audience.)

We are taught in Creative Writing degrees, when studying writing for children, that the quickest route to a sympathetic protagonist is to have them be an orphan. It’s literally a writing shortcut. Burnham is a bunch of them. Orphaned. Rebel done good. Guilty of crime she didn’t as such commit. Adopted by a different culture. Fallen from high to reclaim her friends and her throne. Has never been love and finds love. First love turns out to be something dangerous in disguise, but turns out to be good underneath it all. Loses a mentor. Is betrayed by the fake rescuer and new mentor. Is misunderstood.
If there’s a support group for fictional characters, she’s pulling up a seat with Harry Potter, Buffy Summers and that girl from Twilight bringing the doughnuts.
There’s nothing wrong with it, but in terms of originality.....yup. Nothin doing. She’s a chosen one in Trek...which I suppose is original, because Prime Trek at least shines away from Chosen One tropes.

 

[cooleddie74]

Why did you have to go there

Once...on a trip to East Africa...I saw a gazelle giving birth. It was truly amazing...

 

[Infern0]

I do, I'll admit certain things about it make it tough to reconcile but on the whole i can fit it in. The single biggest problem is the klingons imo, but in my head cannon its some mutation due to eugenics that will go away soon.

 

[fireproof78]

But even outside of Trek, the character trope of a protagonist who was orphaned and raised by surrogate parents is literally as old as fiction. Indeed, I'd venture that it's far more commonplace in fiction than IRL. It's been milked dry. What new insights does it have to offer? (I'm sure some real people can in fact relate to the circumstance, of course. But they're a vanishingly small percentage of the overall audience.)

Probably true. I still identify and can relate to it, which is my larger point. I don't look to fiction to offer new insights in to life. I look to it to explore human problems and characters I can relate to and see them overcome.

 

[Vger23]

Probably true. I still identify and can relate to it, which is my larger point. I don't look to fiction to offer new insights in to life. I look to it to explore human problems and characters I can relate to and see them overcome.

True dat. Double True.

 

[Lord Garth]

Why did you have to go there

Once...on a trip to East Africa...I saw a gazelle giving birth. It was truly amazing...

What can I say? When I task cooleddie74 with a job (coming up with a third form of torture), he delivers.

 

[cooleddie74]

What can I say? I have faith.

Faith of the heart.

 

[Lord Garth]

Hallelujah!

 

[Discofan]

Once...on a trip to East Africa...I saw a gazelle giving birth. It was truly amazing...

Did you know that it is now part of the Klingon ritual? Being tied to a chair and forced to listen to Archer's Gazelle speech... that or being touched by forty Klingon tasers...

Most people choose the tasers...

 

[BillJ]

Did you know that it is now part of the Klingon ritual? Being tied to a chair and forced to listen to Archer's Gazelle speech... that or being touched by forty Klingon tasers...

Most people choose the tasers...

Real warriors submit to the tasers while listening to the speech.

 

[ITDUDE]

Did you know that it is now part of the Klingon ritual? Being tied to a chair and forced to listen to Archer's Gazelle speech... that or being touched by forty Klingon tasers...

Most people choose the tasers...

Still better than this I am sure:

Oh freddled gruntbuggly,
Thy micturations are to me,
As plurdled gabbleblotchits,
On a lurgid bee,
That mordiously hath blurted out,
Its earted jurtles, grumbling
Into a rancid festering confectious organ squealer.
Now the jurpling slayjid agrocrustles,
Are slurping hagrilly up the axlegrurts,
And living glupules frart and stipulate,
Like jowling meated liverslime,
Groop, I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes,
And hooptiously drangle me,
With crinkly bindlewurdles,mashurbitries.
Or else I shall rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon,
See if I don't!

 

[Lord Garth]

I think we're giving Skull & Bones and some other fraternities good ideas for their indoctrinations here.

 

[Vger23]

Still better than this I am sure:

Oh freddled gruntbuggly,
Thy micturations are to me,
As plurdled gabbleblotchits,
On a lurgid bee,
That mordiously hath blurted out,
Its earted jurtles, grumbling
Into a rancid festering confectious organ squealer.
Now the jurpling slayjid agrocrustles,
Are slurping hagrilly up the axlegrurts,
And living glupules frart and stipulate,
Like jowling meated liverslime,
Groop, I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes,
And hooptiously drangle me,
With crinkly bindlewurdles,mashurbitries.
Or else I shall rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon,
See if I don't!

IDK brah

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[lawman]

I don't look to fiction to offer new insights in to life. I look to it to explore human problems and characters I can relate to...

I'm genuinely not clear on the distinction you're trying to draw here. To me, these things go hand-in-hand — exploring human problems and relatable characters is inseparable from offering insights into the human condition, and vice-versa.

The thing about Burnham is that so many of her defining characteristics don't make her easier for real people to relate to — instead, as @jaime nicely catalogues, they mark her as belonging to a familiar category of fictional characters.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm genuinely not clear on the distinction you're trying to draw here. To me, these things go hand-in-hand — exploring human problems and relatable characters is inseparable from offering insights into the human condition, and vice-versa.

The thing about Burnham is that so many of her defining characteristics don't make her easier for real people to relate to — instead, as @jaime nicely catalogues, they mark her as belonging to a familiar category of fictional characters.

Then I have a different experience and hang out with different people. not sure what being a real person has to do with it, since the people I know and work with seem real enough.

And my distinction is simple-I want to connect to the characters on some level. I don't have to agree with them, I don't have to even like every choice that they made. All I want is to look at them and go "I get where you are coming from and the goals you have." Perhaps it is a distinction without a difference, but that's the distinction I'll make.

Edit to add clarification: Less I sound overly confrontational, Michael's experiences are certainly not unique in fiction or even in Star Trek. Certainly fans of the series will be familiar with the tropes. But, this show isn't just designed for current fans, but also for people less familiar with the series who might be drawn in with character beats they are familiar with in fiction.

I mean, after all, do I need to be an alien/human hybrid to identify with Spock? What about the kid who was able to identify with Drax due to his literal interpretation of metaphors? People connect in different ways with characters. The important part is making that connection.

 

[Lord Garth]

Random Thought popped into my head, regarding the Mirror Universe. I saw someone mention ENT S4 in another thread somewhere and it triggered this thought.

The Defiant went back in time into the Mirror Universe. It comes from the time of "The Tholian Web" at least. "The Tholian Web" takes place after "Mirror, Mirror".

So...

The Defiant went back in time to another universe, so the MU in "The Mirror Darkly" now had access to a 23rd Century ship, when it didn't before. The Defiant is like Nero's ship. It changed everything. So now, the Mirror Universe looks like it does in DSC and not TOS-y. "Mirror, Mirror" was the unaltered look before the Defiant went back in time. If it works for the Kelvin films, it works here.

"But how come the technology doesn't become more advanced? Why isn't it like TNG in Discovery's Mirror Universe?" Because shifting alliances, people constantly killing each other, shifts in power, whatever. Everything's always in a constant state of flux or destabilization. Technology doesn't progress as fast in some areas as in others: like torture and destruction.

Mystery solved. That's why "But it doesn't look like TOS!!!!!!"

As for the Defiant looking different in the graphic? Duh! You think they wouldn't heavily modify the crap out of that ship over time?

 

[ITDUDE]

IDK brah

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Aw gawd! Point taken.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

But how come the technology doesn't become more advanced? Why isn't it like TNG in Discovery's Mirror Universe?" Because shifting alliances, people constantly killing each other, shifts in power, whatever. Everything's always in a constant state of flux or destabilization. Technology doesn't progress as fast in some areas as in others: like torture and destruction.

Broadly agree with your points here. I also just assumed that the terrans weren’t as clever as the Feds so it took them longer to reverse engineer the defiant’s systems.

... something about the chief engineer of a steam ship aboard the first interplanetary transport ...

But - my question is: if the look of the mirror universe was affected by the defiant 100 years previously, how come the shenzhou and other starfleet ships look exactly the same as the MU ones in our universe?

Did a ship from the future come back to the 22nd century in our universe and affect how the TOS era used to look?

 

[Lord Garth]

Broadly agree with your points here. I also just assumed that the terrans weren’t as clever as the Feds so it took them longer to reverse engineer the defiant’s systems.

... something about the chief engineer of a steam ship aboard the first interplanetary transport ...

But - my question is: if the look of the mirror universe was affected by the defiant 100 years previously, how come the shenzhou and other starfleet ships look exactly the same as the MU ones in our universe?

I'm going to use Suspension Of Disbelief and the Law Of Averages to say it all comes out in the wash. Eventually, the ships would work their way towards looking like DSC ships -- which really look like TOS Film Era ships with a John Eaves style spin. So, technically the ships in DSC's Mirror Universe look a little bit more advanced than the Defiant but not a century more advanced.

As far as the fashion: if they adapt the TOS look in the 2150s, it would fall out of style after a certain point and then no one would want to look like that because they'd say, "That's so 2150s!"

Did a ship from the future come back to the 22nd century in our universe and affect how the TOS era used to look?

I am going to pretend something like this might have happened. But, in real life, I think if the CBS All Access line of Star Trek shows runs long enough, eventually someone might get it into their heads to explain all this. Like the 60th Anniversary (just as an example). I'm trying to future-proof my theories.