Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

[F. King Daniel]

Not sure where you're getting this from, apart from perhaps overselling the phrase "Discovery's world" or "our world" used in panels. The same phrase pops up in the DS9 Companion, "the world of deep space nine". It's just shorthand for the show's look, feel, characters, themes, etc. Each of the Trek shows had their own 'world' in that sense. As far as I'm aware there's no official source contradicting the assertion they see this show as Prime Timeline.

Discovery's look isn't just unique, it's the first in Trek to be directly contradictory to what's previously established. That they acknowledge they had to change the classic Enterprise to fit their version of the world spells out clearly that the world's are not the same.

The answer to this is actually super easy:

Encyclopedias are non-canon.

The "size" of the TOS Enterprise was never mentioned on screen.
What DO we have - deckplans, two visible levels on the saucer - fits much better, if not ONLY with an upscaled TOS Enterprise (like by a third bigger).
Thus: The TOS Enterprise officially "IS" bigger. This is not even a retcon (because, again, every mention of her size was NON-canon to begin with). The bigger size just IS the true size of the TOS Enterprise, and all previous encyclopedias have been wrong about it. Period. Much like they have been wrong about what was the first human Warp ship and early humen spaceflight history before.

Obviously however, the Discoprise won't be the "true size" of the TOS Enterprise. It'll be it's own intended scale, which they think looks best next to NCC-1031. They also altered the proportions significantly.

Even if you follow CBS' doublethink and play along that nothing's changed in Trek, if someone asks what the Enterprise looked like in the Pike era of the Prime Universe, that you'd have to give two answers shows they're not really the same world.

 

[jaime]

Yes, a very good argument could be made that ENT has done the same.
No it doesn't. See my earlier post.
Because I was asking how one could possibly catalogue ships and events from Discovery in a Star Trek Encylopdedia without marking them as seperate from TOS (much like the Kelvinverse entries), which is somewhat more involved than simply suspending disbelief.

They will likely just italicise the contradictions...like Lake Armstrong or Vulcan moons. It’s always moons in Yrek isn’t it.

 

[Rahul]

Obviously however, the Discoprise won't be the "true size" of the TOS Enterprise. It'll be it's own intended scale, which they think looks best next to NCC-1031. They also altered the proportions significantly.

Even if you follow CBS' doublethink and play along that nothing's changed in Trek, if someone asks what the Enterprise looked like in the Pike era of the Prime Universe, that you'd have to give two answers shows they're not really the same world.

The TOS Enterprise has ALWAYS been bigger. Anyone who insists on the "official" scale (which BT IS NOT official - it's a non-canon guesstimate in some books) is simply wrong. We know there are two decks on the saucer section. Period. Case closed.

As far as your "CBS doublespeak" argument goes: Yeah. I'm not a fan of the visual reboot either. But it's just that. Visual. The Discoprise is remarkably similar to the TOS-Enterprise, and as far as audiences, the producers and canon goes, it IS the the same ship.

You can rage that TNG's Enterprise-D's 6 foot model has astonishingly different proportions than the 4 foot-model (I prefer the 6 foot model by a mile, it just looks better - I also prefer the TOS-Enterprise look). Or that the TOS Enterprise changes from the "the cage" model to the "regular" one from sot to shot in the same episode - just because they are reusing vfx-shots. The two look nothing alike. But it's obvious in each of those cases they are intended to be the same ship - even if it looks slightly different. Same now. This is nothing new.

 

[fireproof78]

Even if you follow CBS' doublethink and play along that nothing's changed in Trek, if someone asks what the Enterprise looked like in the Pike era of the Prime Universe, that you'd have to give two answers shows they're not really the same world.

Just like I couldn't figure this out:

 

[Crazy Eddie]

"Lieutenant, are you wearing your hair... differently?"

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Or, it's another universe, and meant to entertain. Star Trek was meant to entertain first and foremost as well, not be hung up on the technical details.

Wait what??? I thought the whole purpose of watching Star Trek was to catalog starship class designs, tech, alien looks, etc!!! You mean I'm just supposed to take all those visuals with a grain of salt and merely enjoy the stories? What kind of savages are you people?! Your priorities are all messed up!

*storms off computer to go hug his Trek encyclopedia*

 

[Mudd]

The TOS Enterprise has ALWAYS been bigger. Anyone who insists on the "official" scale (which BT IS NOT official - it's a non-canon guesstimate in some books) is simply wrong. We know there are two decks on the saucer section. Period. Case closed.

At a scale of 947 feet long, Franz Joseph didn't have any difficulty getting two decks with eight foot ceilings into the saucer rim (which I have to assume is what you mean by the "saucer section;" in fact there are eleven full decks in the saucer).

That length may arguably be "non-canon" but it is not conjectural - it's on the drawings that the designer of the ship, Walter M. Jefferies, did for TOS.

Period. Case closed.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

At a scale of 947 feet long, Franz Joseph didn't have any difficulty getting two decks with eight foot ceilings into the saucer rim

Cool, but the Enterprise interiors didn't have an eight foot ceiling. This has been debated to death on this board, so to review:

The extra next to the viewscreen is about 6' tall. The support beam is about 3 heads above him, or about 24 inches for an average male human. The ceiling is at least a foot higher, and there are light fixtures attached to it (unseen, because they're actually studio lights) so it has to be at least 20 inches more. That's a ceiling height of at least 9.5 feet. Most people round this up to about 10 feet, because it gives us a nice round number (and also about 3 meters for the deck height).

So the deck height increases from the FJ plans by 20% to be consistent with the set design. The height increase means the ship's overall dimensions also have to increase by at 20% (probably more, unless we imagine the floors and ceilings to be literally paper thin, which is extremely unlikely).

If you enlarge the 289 meter vessel by 20%, you get a length of about 346 meters. But that, again, is assuming paper thin floors and ceilings.

That length may arguably be "non-canon" but it is not conjectural - it's on the drawings that the designer of the ship, Walter M. Jefferies, did for TOS.

Jeffries never nailed down the size of the Enterprise until long after the model had been built. When it was originally designed in 1964, it had been designed at 540 feet, or about 160 meters long.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Doesn’t matter how big it is or slight changes in the art direction. The show isn’t about minor details in technology or starship design. It’s about using humans in the future to tell stories about our present. Anything else is just window dressing and doesn’t affect the story in any way.

 

[cultcross]

"Lieutenant, are you wearing your hair... differently?"

"It's still canon, Admiral"

 

[GNDN18]

The show isn’t about minor details in technology or starship design. It’s about using humans in the future to tell stories about our present.

So it was written....

 

[Tuskin38]

That they acknowledge they had to change the classic Enterprise to fit their version of the world spells out clearly that the world's are not the same.

Visually, not in lore.

 

[The Wormhole]

So it was written....
View attachment 4374

YES!

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Cool, but the Enterprise interiors didn't have an eight foot ceiling. This has been debated to death on this board, so to review:

The extra next to the viewscreen is about 6' tall. The support beam is about 3 heads above him, or about 24 inches for an average male human. The ceiling is at least a foot higher, and there are light fixtures attached to it (unseen, because they're actually studio lights) so it has to be at least 20 inches more. That's a ceiling height of at least 9.5 feet. Most people round this up to about 10 feet, because it gives us a nice round number (and also about 3 meters for the deck height).

So the deck height increases from the FJ plans by 20% to be consistent with the set design. The height increase means the ship's overall dimensions also have to increase by at 20% (probably more, unless we imagine the floors and ceilings to be literally paper thin, which is extremely unlikely).

If you enlarge the 289 meter vessel by 20%, you get a length of about 346 meters. But that, again, is assuming paper thin floors and ceilings.

Jeffries never nailed down the size of the Enterprise until long after the model had been built. When it was originally designed in 1964, it had been designed at 540 feet, or about 160 meters long.

 

[The Wormhole]

"The forum was angry that day, my friends."
Must have been one of those pesky days that ends with a Y.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Trek fans being angry about things that don't matter on any level is one of the constants of the universe, like the speed of light.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Visually, not in lore.

To me and many others, that extent of a change (which includes all the technological and storyline changes too) is enough to consider it a seperate world.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Doesn’t matter how big it is or slight changes in the art direction. The show isn’t about minor details in technology or starship design. It’s about using humans in the future to tell stories about our present. Anything else is just window dressing and doesn’t affect the story in any way.

Discovery isn't ruined for me in any way by being a reboot Trek universe. I love Gotham, but I don't try and force it to be a prequel to any of the Batman movies.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Discovery isn't ruined for me in any way by being a reboot Trek universe.

Sure, it's a reboot and if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon.

 

[Butters]

Just like I couldn't figure this out:

Different uniform? New perm?

Those Vulcans all look the same to me!