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Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

Is it?

  • Yes, that's the official word and it still fits

    Votes: 194 44.7%
  • Yes, but it's borderline at this point

    Votes: 44 10.1%
  • No, there's just too many inconsistencies

    Votes: 147 33.9%
  • I don't care about continuity, just the show's quality

    Votes: 49 11.3%

  • Total voters
    434
DSC directly visually contradicts the rougly concurrent "The Cage"
But "The Cage" was already contradicted by "The Menagerie"? There's also exactly as much time between "The Cage" and "Will You Take My Hand?" as there is between "Turnabout Intruder" and The Motion Picture; why can't their be another "refit"?

(Also the "refit" is stupid. You only accept it cuz it's been there for forty years. What kind of refit makes the ship a completely different size, shape, exterior, interior, every piece of technology, etc. etc. etc.)
 
Because I was asking how one could possibly catalogue ships and events from Discovery in a Star Trek Encylopdedia without marking them as seperate from TOS (much like the Kelvinverse entries), which is somewhat more involved than simply suspending disbelief.
I imagine you would just handle it like the Encyclopedia has always handled it, by just matter-of-factly recording the "who, what, where, or when" part of the entry and then in italics include a little footnote on the inconsistencies and suggest a possible (non-canon) explanation.
 
Because I was asking how one could possibly catalogue ships and events from Discovery in a Star Trek Encylopdedia without marking them as seperate from TOS (
How does the encyclopedia deal with the different depictions of the Trill? Or the powers of a Vulcan or prior to ENT, the Klingons? They just pretend. You don't embark on a project like the Star Trek encyclopedia if you can't cope with contradiction and inconsistency.
 
No it doesn't. See my earlier post.
I saw your earlier post. I just disagree, and I think you're conflating "Lore" with "Visuals."

Because I was asking how one could possibly catalogue ships and events from Discovery in a Star Trek Encylopdedia without marking them as seperate from TOS (much like the Kelvinverse entries), which is somewhat more involved than simply suspending disbelief.
By having the entry for "Enterprise" include different subsections for "TOS version" and "Discovery Version." Fans of Superdimension Fortress Macross and Mobile Suit Gundam will find this an extremely familiar concept.
 
Making it seperate from the world of TOS, as the designers intended. Thank you:)
Not sure where you're getting this from, apart from perhaps overselling the phrase "Discovery's world" or "our world" used in panels. The same phrase pops up in the DS9 Companion, "the world of deep space nine". It's just shorthand for the show's look, feel, characters, themes, etc. Each of the Trek shows had their own 'world' in that sense. As far as I'm aware there's no official source contradicting the assertion they see this show as Prime Timeline.
 
It would be nice if it were not just setting it apart but improving on it. That's a whole different level of challenge, of course, and I think there's a pretty strong argument that it hasn't been met.
There are arguments for both sides. Neither have been particularly satisfactory, and neither will persuade the other.

I'll strike the middle ground for me. I enjoy it, and the tech updates make it more belivable for me, rather than rather nondescript computers that do "computer things." I can imagine both working just fine, and can justify them in mind equally as well.

I guess for me, is I can accept either way. It doesn't have to be perfect, and I really don't expect it to be.
 
Well I don't think we can dismiss the evidence against your point because you don't like them...
Fair enough, and I wouldn't ask anyone to. Suffice it to say that I find it hard to discuss them without mentioning that I think they're godawful. ;) And given that, I'm grateful that they provide a handy in-story excuse for completely segregating them from everything else that is Star Trek.

...the only thing 'rebooty' about them is a change to the fate of the USS Kelvin which hardly explains all the changes we see in ST2009. We can accept the handwave, but it doesn't actually make any sense.
I'm partial to Simon Pegg's take on things (and although the idea was circulating before he mentioned it, having it endorsed by the writer of the third movie certainly lends extra credibility), which is that the Narada's intervention in 2233 had ripple effects on the timeline even before that point. After all, there are several aspects of previously established Trek history that depend on timeline interventions originating after 2233 to periods well before 2233 that presumably would not have happened in the same fashion in the Kelvinverse. It certainly helps explain things about the films that just scream "total reboot" (like, e.g., Pike's age).

It's just an update of TOS for the era in which those movies were made. They just decided to throw in something to the plot for fans to wave it away with, and Discovery has decided not to, as yet.
And that makes a world of difference.

105 pages in, I know I'm not the first person to bring this up, but I will again anyway: The Motion Picture. Roddenberry even wrote a whole novel explaining that THIS is what Star Trek actually looked like all along, that what everyone thought was "canon" was actually an in-universe dramatization. Every single thing in that movie needed a "headcanon wankaround" (calm down friend) and even the man in charge knew it.
That's overstating what Roddenberry wrote (even setting aside the fact that it's not canon, as others have noted). I've read that novel more than once, and I always came away with the impression that it had Kirk ruminating that the details of his adventures had been sensationalized for public consumption, not that the look of the ship had. (The refit, after all, explained the visual changes.) That actually makes a lot more sense in-universe... after all, people living in the Trekverse would know what real starships looked like a lot more than they would know what happened on them... and if one were to hold to it, would actually justify changing "the lore" a lot more than it would "the visuals."
 
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There are arguments for both sides. Neither have been particularly satisfactory, and neither will persuade the other.

I'll strike the middle ground for me. I enjoy it, and the tech updates make it more belivable for me, rather than rather nondescript computers that do "computer things." I can imagine both working just fine, and can justify them in mind equally as well.

I guess for me, is I can accept either way. It doesn't have to be perfect, and I really don't expect it to be.
It doesn't really make any difference to me either way, it has no real bearing on my enjoyment of the show one way or the other.

Its an argument with no real answer and no real point, it just goes round in circles.

I like the new DiscoPrise just as I like the KelvinPrise and KelvinPrise A.

A bigger question mark is over the unrecognisable Klingon ships and disjointed design lineage of some of the Starfleet ships but even that can be answered by over active designers who went a bit too far off the reservation.

Then again they have 9 years in universe to fix it if they intend to.

Changes in size alone are not enough, especially when we have seen so much after the fact changes over the years.
 
Fair enough, and I wouldn't ask anyone to. Suffice it to say that I find it hard to discuss them without mentioning that I think they're godawful. ;) And given that, I'm grateful that they provide a handy in-story excuse for completely segregating them from everything else that is Star Trek.
Not to be argumenative, because I am genuinely curious. Why do you need the excuse? The whole point of this thread is "Do you consider it Prime?" Even in the face of the production team stating "It's Prime" that didn't hold any weight. But, Simon Pegg's opinion holds weight, and the VFX team using the phrase "Discovery's World" carries weight to justify the opinion already held?

This is truly baffling, and I'm struggling with the justification. If you don't think it's Prime, it's not Prime! End of story.
 
Fair question. Why do I need the excuse? Let me consider this in terms of both personal emotional implications, and the logic of fictional continuity.

On an emotional level, it's because I relate completely to what WebLurker posted a few pages ago: "TOS is the primary foundation of the prime universe. Everything else builds off of it or to it. It's arguably Star Trek in its purest form. It's a respect thing." Original Star Trek, that ship, that crew, is what I fell in love with long ago, and without it as the foundation I really wouldn't give much of a damn about the rest of the Trekverse. There is no spin-off series that would have hooked me strictly on its own merits. Episodes of latter-day series that show honor and respect to the original are among my favorites (e.g., TNG's "Relics," DS9's "Trials and Tribble-ations," ENT's "In A Mirror Darkly.")

Therefore, anything in the franchise that undermines it, or purports to replace, displace, or alter it, had better have a damn good excuse.

On a logical level, it's because I appreciate and care about continuity in my fiction, whether TV or film, comics or prose. How consistently a fictional setting hangs together and builds out its world matters to me within any individual story, and even more within a long-term shared fictional setting. Things that violate internal continuity draw attention to themselves and disrupt my willing suspension of disbelief. The larger the violation, the larger the disruption. Yes, of course, nobody's perfect and no continuity is flawless... but it's an ideal to shoot for, a limit condition to approach asymptotically. Therefore, if some story within a given fictional reality sets out to change major aspects of that reality, it had better have some logical in-universe rationalization for doing so. (When DC Comics decided to reboot its universe in 1985, for instance, it devoted a high-profile year-long series to doing so... not to mention months of build-up beforehand. And if such things are to be done, that's how they should be done.)

As applied to my impressions of DSC, and the topic of this thread in particular... I have a lot of issues with the show. Storywise, I've enjoyed some episodes and disliked others; it's a very mixed bag. The same goes for the characters, and the acting, and the designs, and pretty much every aspect of the show. Lots of pros, lots of cons. To the extent that the continuity poses problems (in terms of visuals or narrative or both!), that's just more in the "cons" column. To the extent that the continuity fits with what came before, or at least can be rationalized to do so, that's less of a problem.

(FWIW I probably wouldn't have phrased the OP's question as "is it Prime" any more than "is it canon," because "Prime" is just a handy marketing term devised to describe what ST09 diverged from, and to my mind previous Trek continuity has involved a number of (usually subtle) changes in its timeline over the decades. However, by and large they all fit into a fairly coherent reality... and terminology aside, the intent of the OP was clear enough. One of the things that made DSC sound so interesting in concept, when it was first announced, was the opportunity to visit my favorite period of that reality (or something very close to it). Insofar as it's instead something very different from it, that's disappointing. Insofar as it's different enough to undermine the coherence of that reality (or at least that part of it), that's more of a problem.)

How's that? Less baffling?
 
The new Enterprise is confirmed to be larger than the original. Back to my Encyclopedia comment earlier, here's the Enterprise page in the latest edition:
zRrA6LB.jpg

Discovery will have to be segregated similarly to the Kelvinverse in order to be catalogued alongside TOS, TNG and the rest. Thus, not the same universe. It's common sense.

Yes, a very good argument could be made that ENT has done the same.
No it doesn't. See my earlier post.
Because I was asking how one could possibly catalogue ships and events from Discovery in a Star Trek Encylopdedia without marking them as seperate from TOS (much like the Kelvinverse entries), which is somewhat more involved than simply suspending disbelief.

I imagine you would just handle it like the Encyclopedia has always handled it, by just matter-of-factly recording the "who, what, where, or when" part of the entry and then in italics include a little footnote on the inconsistencies and suggest a possible (non-canon) explanation.

The answer to this is actually super easy:

Encyclopedias are non-canon.

The "size" of the TOS Enterprise was never mentioned on screen.
What DO we have - deckplans, two visible levels on the saucer - fits much better, if not ONLY with an upscaled TOS Enterprise (like by a third bigger).
Thus: The TOS Enterprise officially "IS" bigger. This is not even a retcon (because, again, every mention of her size was NON-canon to begin with). The bigger size just IS the true size of the TOS Enterprise, and all previous encyclopedias have been wrong about it. Period. Much like they have been wrong about what was the first human Warp ship and early humen spaceflight history before.
 
Fair question. Why do I need the excuse? Let me consider this in terms of both personal emotional implications, and the logic of fictional continuity.

On an emotional level, it's because I relate completely to what WebLurker posted a few pages ago: "TOS is the primary foundation of the prime universe. Everything else builds off of it or to it. It's arguably Star Trek in its purest form. It's a respect thing." Original Star Trek, that ship, that crew, is what I fell in love with long ago, and without it as the foundation I really wouldn't give much of a damn about the rest of the Trekverse. There is no spin-off series that would have hooked me strictly on its own merits. Episodes of latter-day series that show honor and respect to the original are among my favorites (e.g., TNG's "Relics," DS9's "Trials and Tribble-ations," ENT's "In A Mirror Darkly.")

Therefore, anything in the franchise that undermines it, or purports to replace, displace, or alter it, had better have a damn good excuse.

On a logical level, it's because I appreciate and care about continuity in my fiction, whether TV or film, comics or prose. How consistently a fictional setting hangs together and builds out its world matters to me within any individual story, and even more within a long-term shared fictional setting. Things that violate internal continuity draw attention to themselves and disrupt my willing suspension of disbelief. The larger the violation, the larger the disruption. Yes, of course, nobody's perfect and no continuity is flawless... but it's an ideal to shoot for, a limit condition to approach asymptotically. Therefore, if some story within a given fictional reality sets out to change major aspects of that reality, it had better have some logical in-universe rationalization for doing so. (When DC Comics decided to reboot its universe in 1985, for instance, it devoted a high-profile year-long series to doing so... not to mention months of build-up beforehand. And if such things are to be done, that's how they should be done.)

As applied to my impressions of DSC, and the topic of this thread in particular... I have a lot of issues with the show. Storywise, I've enjoyed some episodes and disliked others; it's a very mixed bag. The same goes for the characters, and the acting, and the designs, and pretty much every aspect of the show. Lots of pros, lots of cons. To the extent that the continuity poses problems (in terms of visuals or narrative or both!), that's just more in the "cons" column. To the extent that the continuity fits with what came before, or at least can be rationalized to do so, that's less of a problem.

(FWIW I probably wouldn't have phrased the OP's question as "is it Prime" any more than "is it canon," because "Prime" is just a handy marketing term devised to describe what ST09 diverged from, and to my mind previous Trek continuity has involved a number of (usually subtle) changes in its timeline over the decades. However, by and large they all fit into a fairly coherent reality... and terminology aside, the intent of the OP was clear enough. One of the things that made DSC sound so interesting in concept, when it was first announced, was the opportunity to visit my favorite period of that reality (or something very close to it). Insofar as it's instead something very different from it, that's disappointing. Insofar as it's different enough to undermine the coherence of that reality (or at least that part of it), that's more of a problem.)

How's that? Less baffling?
Yes and no. I see nothing wrong with attempting to a redesign for any reason, period. Now, I do agree that some things are problematic, like the rank pips, insignia, and I'm not 100% on the uniforms. Definitely not on the Discovery herself.

That said, for me, as I have stated elsewhere, if TMP can be as soon as 3 years post TOS and have all those changes, uniforms, ship shape, warp core, etc, then DISCO can sit ok with me. TMP didn't even give me a "damn good reason" and their uniforms are probably the most abomniable thing to me when it comes to redesign.
 
...if TMP can be as soon as 3 years post TOS and have all those changes, uniforms, ship shape, warp core, etc, then DISCO can sit ok with me. TMP didn't even give me a "damn good reason" and their uniforms are probably the most abomniable thing to me when it comes to redesign.
Granted, TMP was a lot of change to swallow all at once. Apparently Starfleet was going through a lot of internal transitions in the 2270s. (And yeah, the uniforms left a lot to be desired, most notably any hint of color. Fortunately, we only had to put up with them for one film.) But as part of that, it gave us the only revision to the Enterprise that ever actually improved on the original design.

And still and all, that three-year gap was at least moving forward. It's qualitatively different from being asked to revisit a period you're already relatively familiar with, and being told your memories of it are misleading or invalid.
 
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Granted, TMP was a lot of change to swallow all at once. Apparently Starfleet was going through a lot of internal transitions in the 2270s. (And yeah, the uniforms left a lot to be desired, most notably any hint of color. Fortunately, we only had to put up with them for one film.) But as part of that, it gave us the only revision to the Enterprise that ever actually improved on the original design.

And still and all, that three-year gap was at least moving forward. It's qualitatively different from being asked to revisit a period you're already relatively familiar with, and being told your memories of it are misleading or invalid.
Well, I'll grant that moving forward can make the transition easier, but I certainly don't feel like I'm being "mislead" or "invalidated" in my appreciation of TOS. I enjoy (present tense) TOS as it is. DISCO doesn't diminish that for me.

Also, for me personally, I don't believe that TOS was the be all end all of every Starfleet vessel. I mean, Starfleet changes uniforms so often that people on the same blasted ship wear different styles at the same time.

From a different tact, I'll approach it as if it isn't Prime. I love seeing reimaginings of Starfleet ships, uniforms and the like. GR expected it. So, regardless of whether or not it improves on the original product I love seeing it.

Again, this is me. I want to explore the Star Trek universe in as many possible variations as possible.
 
I enjoy (present tense) TOS as it is. DISCO doesn't diminish that for me.
Props to you, then. I would never tell someone to stop enjoying something they sincerely like. For me, though, compartmentalizing things that way would require a noticeable level of cognitive dissonance.
 
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Props to you, then. I would never tell someone to stop enjoying something they sincerely like. For me, though, compartmentalizing things that would require a noticeable level of cognitive dissonance.
And that is where we part ways. I'm not compartmentalizing anything. I just enjoy them as expanding upon the lore of TOS. :beer:
 
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