Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

[cooleddie74]

They didn't retcon them out. And they shouldn't. Just because some fans don't like them doesn't mean they need to be jettisoned. They're a part of both 20th and 21st century Trek, not a throwaway plot point from one episode in 1967 that was never meant to be recreated or even remembered beyond the shelf life of the very first show.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

They didn't retcon them out. And they shouldn't. Just because some fans don't like them doesn't mean they need to be jettisoned. They're a part of both 20th and 21st century Trek, not a throwaway plot point from one episode in 1967 that was never meant to be recreated or even remembered beyond the shelf life of the very first show.

As of now, they seem to have retconned em out by what we have seen on TV. The ash. Voq thing does not work if there is human shot. Now the question is, have they removed them totally or simply redesigned them not to look like humans.

 

[lawman]

You keep saying this. Repetition doesn't make it any more convincing. "What we have seen on TV" is problematic and ambiguous and allows plenty of room for inferences different than your own.

 

[cooleddie74]

Or they're still out there but we just haven't seen them.

They're canon. There's nothing patently offensive or even objectionable about them from an in-universe standpoint. They're Klingons with Human Augment DNA that dissolves their ridges and makes them look more Terran. That's it. They're not walking around in Lost In Space makeup and asking Starfleet officers to please turn the crank on their back to activate them.

 

[Jesse1066]

As of now, they seem to have retconned em out by what we have seen on TV. The ash. Voq thing does not work if there is human shot. Now the question is, have they removed them totally or simply redesigned them not to look like humans.

They could have the same head shape as in Discovery but without the ridges. And with a smattering of hair.

 

[cooleddie74]

Even humans with elongated cranial bones and hair would be fine. I'd strongly prefer Ash Tyler-like appearances with facial hair to fit in with the established ENT canon but as a fallback design the ridgeless but elongated head look would work. They'd just look like humans with slightly stretched-out heads, and we've seen plenty of those in the history of Trek.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

They could have the same head shape as in Discovery but without the ridges. And with a smattering of hair.

Or less ridges , maybe just smooth skin without the pits or just hair.I mean we don't see any hair in DSC, so even introducing hair could be one of the things it did and if they shaved it would look normal. Could be something they would do to look normal

Even humans with elongated cranial bones and hair would be fine. I'd strongly prefer Ash Tyler-like appearances with facial hair to fit in with the established ENT canon but as a fallback design the ridgeless but elongated head look would work. They'd just look like humans with slightly stretched-out heads, and we've seen plenty of those in the history of Trek.

.

Canon is events, not look. The Fact Tyler had to be created s he was kills the idea you can take a shot and become human looking. If they want to keep the awful ENT retcon, they can do it in many ways without making them look human.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

You keep saying this. Repetition doesn't make it any more convincing. "What we have seen on TV" is problematic and ambiguous and allows plenty of room for inferences different than your own.

They did not give Voq the shot. Which means they could not as there is no magic "look human" shot.

 

[cooleddie74]

Arne Darvin was surgically created, not an Augment. The Augment virus existed in 2267 and 2268. Why didn't the Empire just choose an Augment Klingon and train him to infiltrate Deep Space Station K-7? Because they had their reasons.

The fact that both Ash Tyler and Arne Darvin were surgically created doesn't necessarily mean a thing. Specific requirements for a specific mission behind enemy lines.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Arne Darvin was surgically created, not an Augment. The Augment virus existed in 2267 and 2268. Why didn't the Empire just choose an Augment Klingon and train him to infiltrate Deep Space Station K-7? Because they had their reasons.

The fact that both Ash Tyler and Arne Darvin were surgically created doesn't necessarily mean a thing. Specific requirements for a specific mission behind enemy lines.

1: The retcon was not created when TOS and DS9 was in production.
2: We know he was surgically altered only because folks behind the scenes have told us this is how it was

You both want to use a retcon, and ignore the fact it was a retcon.

 

[cooleddie74]

You want to ignore canon and assume that because the current producers haven't shown something means it no longer officially exists.

 

[F. King Daniel]

We can't say Arne Darvin was modified like Voq because backstage sources unless we acknowledge that Klingons are all bald in DSC because of sensory organs in their ridges (which renders them incompatible with any prior Klingon)

 

[cooleddie74]

And the less we think about that the better. I hope that never makes it into an official canon guide because that may be the most annoying thing about their makeup redesign.

 

[Jesse1066]

Or less ridges , maybe just smooth skin without the pits or just hair.I mean we don't see any hair in DSC, so even introducing hair could be one of the things it did and if they shaved it would look normal. Could be something they would do to look normal

Less ridges works too. Another giveaway that they aren't human could be the unusual range of skin colors. Kol is sort of blue gray, for example. Even with a completely human shape, he'd never pass for human.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

You want to ignore canon and assume that because the current producers haven't shown something means it no longer officially exists.

When Old canon is ignored or removed by the current show, we tend to call it a retcon man.

We can't say Arne Darvin was modified like Voq because backstage sources unless we acknowledge that Klingons are all bald in DSC because of sensory organs in their ridges (which renders them incompatible with any prior Klingon)

Not really, so they are bald, big deal. Also, having hair would not stop the pits from working, but would make them less effective. Those pits by the way, are not just on the head, but chest and back to it seems. Really, having pits kind fit klingons, they are predators and IIRC they had actors kinda move their heads around and sniff the air and such in the past, so it really fits.

I really think they went hairless because they more based it off early TMP klingon redesign ideas.

Less ridges works too. Another giveaway that they aren't human could be the unusual range of skin colors. Kol is sort of blue gray, for example. Even with a completely human shape, he'd never pass for human.

There are many ways they could do them without making them look human, which is IMO just lazy. If they are gonna keep it, they still need to look alien, something like TNG version of klingons could work or as you say fewer or less defined ridges. I would not utterly hate it if they made them look cool and not just human.

I really enjoyed the skin tone range myself, I mean humans sometimes do get near purple. There is this black model with skin so dark it looks painted and their are people with medical conditions that turn skin blue or purple. And really, it just made them seem more alien to have skin tones that were not a 1:1 to the human range

 

[Jesse1066]

When Old canon is ignored or removed by the current show, we tend to call it a retcon man.



Not really, so they are bald, big deal. Also, having hair would not stop the pits from working, but would make them less effective. Those pits by the way, are not just on the head, but chest and back to it seems. Really, having pits kind fit klingons, they are predators and IIRC they had actors kinda move their heads around and sniff the air and such in the past, so it really fits.

I really think they went hairless because they more based it off early TMP klingon redesign ideas.



There are many ways they could do them without making them look human, which is IMO just lazy. If they are gonna keep it, they still need to look alien, something like TNG version of klingons could work or as you say fewer or less defined ridges. I would not utterly hate it if they made them look cool and not just human.

I really enjoyed the skin tone range myself, I mean humans sometimes do get near purple. There is this black model with skin so dark it looks painted and their are people with medical conditions that turn skin blue or purple. And really, it just made them seem more alien to have skin tones that were not a 1:1 to the human range

I don't seriously expect to see augment Klingons in the show so I guess it doesn't really make much difference how we choose to imagine them (if at all). It would be hard to imagine a retrovirus fully transforming the bone structure of Disco Klingons to a totally human appearance though. Particularly in the short amount of time it took in ENT. Filling in the ridges with additional cartilage is more plausible.

By the way, would it disappoint you if a few Klingons showed up next season with a bit of hair on the back of the head and/or a mustache like in the comics?

 

[The Wormhole]

2: We know he was surgically altered only because folks behind the scenes have told us this is how it was

David Gerrold has said no such thing, and he's the only one who act as an authority regarding story points in Trouble with Tribbles.

 

[cooleddie74]

If they are gonna keep it, they still need to look alien

Why? That was the whole point of the old explanations for why the TOS Klingons looked the way they did, so as to more closely resemble humans and other Federation member species and infiltrate their territory. The old FASA reasoning may have never been canon and even now is less so, but does every alien in Star Trek have to look exotic and have wild makeup before we can accept it's from another planet or even galaxy? If the whole point is that at least some of them are supposed to look more human in this timeframe how is that a bad thing?

Does a human actor with facial hair and a gruff personality make some fans lose sleep at night? Not every alien species has to look like it comes from a Ridley Scott or James Cameron film. Besides, I thought the whole point was the storytelling? If visuals and aesthetic canon don't matter why does a Klingon HAVE to look more "alien"?

 

[Mirror Mirror]

I don't seriously expect to see augment Klingons in the show so I guess it doesn't really make much difference how we choose to imagine them (if at all). It would be hard to imagine a retrovirus fully transforming the bone structure of Disco Klingons to a totally human appearance though. Particularly in the short amount of time it took in ENT. Filling in the ridges with additional cartilage is more plausible.

By the way, would it disappoint you if a few Klingons showed up next season with a bit of hair on the back of the head and/or a mustache like in the comics?

That is one of the reasons I find the ENT story so stupid and poorly done. As for the hair, it would not bother me one way of the other. Hell Bald in DSC could be nothing more than current fashion. They look like pretty classic TNG Klingons with hair, I don't hate the bald, but nor do I hate the hair. If they go with hair, I hope we see a range of colors and styles, like we have the clothing and armor.

David Gerrold has said no such thing, and he's the only one who act as an authority regarding story points in Trouble with Tribbles.

In the 60's Klingons were humans with racist brown face, so it was not an issue. The current people in charge of trek have stated pure up he and Ash were made the same way. What is clear is DSC lacks a magic "make me human" shot.

Why?

Because it was lazy, stupid, and based off a joke. That is why. Trek gets mocked , rightly so, for its lazy alien design. They have the budget and a excellent FX team, they should not look like cheap on the fly wal-mart FX jobs . Klingons are not human, they should not look human. Many of us Loved the fact for many races so far they moved away from "Human with paint and a funny forhead". They should have did more with the Orions and honestly If it were me, I would modify the Vulans and leave Spock as is as he is half breed. So him looking near human was fine.

I do not think you will be seeing the make up regress to lazy and cheap. I think, based off what we have seen, they retconed it back out, but if they do something cool with it, I am ok with it. I mean they could do some really cool things, like make them smoother with less well defined forheads and hair. that would look pretty cool and more "half breed" , which is kinda what they are.

 

[fireproof78]

David Gerrold has said no such thing, and he's the only one who act as an authority regarding story points in Trouble with Tribbles.

Honestly, since when has "word of God" mattered in this discussion?