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Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?

Is it?

  • Yes, that's the official word and it still fits

    Votes: 194 44.7%
  • Yes, but it's borderline at this point

    Votes: 44 10.1%
  • No, there's just too many inconsistencies

    Votes: 147 33.9%
  • I don't care about continuity, just the show's quality

    Votes: 49 11.3%

  • Total voters
    434
As others pointed out, if she was merely referring to Kirk's inability to keep a relationship the rest of the episode would have played into that, but instead it only reinforcers the idea that the only way Lester can become a captain is if she's a man, so she decides to switch bodies with Kirk so she can be a captain. After all, it's a teaser, designed to give you an idea of what an episode is about before it proceeds.

It's a stupid episode, and deserved to be retconned in context of the rest of the franchise. I rather ignore it and pretend it didn't happen, like I ignore Spock teasing Rand about her enjoying being raped at the end of "The Enemy Within".
 
In practically every respect the Klingons in STID - a movie I find just as flawed in its own way as DSC - are superior to what we've been getting in the new series.
As flawed as STID was, the portrayal of Klingons was excellent, in my opinion. Too often in the TNG era the Klingons are portrayed as drunken violent biker gangs which make you wonder how they even got into space. STIDs Klingons are eminently competent, calm and measured in their approach, sophisticated linguistically, and downright cool. Their role in the movie was what Worf's so often was, to be set up as a scary badass in order that, when they were defeated hands down by the big bad, he would look incredibly badass. But they did that role very well while appearing like decent spacefaring soldiers.
 
The whole idea of the Spore Drive casts a significant discontinuity that will have to be explained to maintain canon...

But, to tell the truth, I don't mind if startrek is totally redesigned into something that, while still keeping the core ideas (utopic future, people travelling the galaxy in search for knowledge, prime directive, tolerance) , start to cope with the 50 years of technological and sociological changes that happened... I believe trekkies should worry less with canon and more about storytelling...

Now, on the storytelling aspect... I think that Discovery's story is OK-ish...
 
Or Paris got flattened and they only chose to rebuild the Eiffel Tower and a few other landmarks.

Actually, when I think about it, as a mostly-open all-steel structure, the Eiffel Tower would probably fair pretty well in a nuclear strike so long as it avoided a direct hit. There's not a lot of surface area and it would probably sway-out whatever force it receives. The glassed in restaurant and tourist areas and going to get blown out though. It's also in the middle of a park, away from any nearby buildings that would be consumed in the post-blast firestorm. The structure itself should be good.

Another thing to think about: even now we have building technologies that can make buildings in months that some decades before would take years... People can make stuff out of thin air... they would be able to redecorate Paris from scratch every week... :D
 
No, it isn't counter-intuitive, but it isn't common in my experience and reading. Certainly not enough for me to consider it the "majority" view.
Might not be. Like I said, we don't really have the data to know. I was just trying to rebut MM's blanket assertion that the opposite was the majority view. (Truth be told, I suspect plenty of fans have legitimately never thought about it one way or the other.)

Majority opinion isn't really the critical point here, though. After all, this whole thread is about how to maintain continuity... how to determine what does and doesn't fit into the "Prime Timeline." It's helpful to have rules of construction for that sort of thing, in the same way that courts have rules of construction for how to interpret the law. For instance: if you have two different statutes, both passed by the legislature at some point and signed into law, that contradict each other if read one way, and can be made congruent if read another way, a court is inclined to prefer the second way. It just makes sense to let things make sense, rather than forcing a conflict.

In the case at hand, there's a line of dialogue that has two possible readings, both of which work within the episode, but only one of which is compatible with the show's long-term themes and other aspects of canon. It seems only logical to prefer that reading.

Moreover... even if the "no women captains" reading were unequivocal, it would still be a poor example of what MM was trying to claim about how retcons work. First of all, as I've noted, that would make it an instance in which later stories (e.g., in ENT) directly contradicted an earlier point of continuity, not merely "ignored" it in the way ENT's Augment story has thus far been ignored by DSC. Second, we're still talking about just one line of dialogue (from an unreliable source, at that), so even if it were contradicted by a retcon and hence superseded, the rest of "Enterprise Incident" and indeed all of TOS would remain intact... whereas the implications of MM's argument would be to completely wipe away an entire two-episode story. (And, moreover, a story that helps make sense of other continuity far more than it hinders it.) There's no rule of construction that makes sense of that.
 
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Might not be. Like I said, we don't really have the data to know. I was just trying to rebut MM's blanket assertion that the opposite was the majority view. (Truth be told, I suspect plenty of fans have legitimately never thought about it one way or the other.)

Majority opinion isn't really the critical point here, though. After all, this whole thread is about how to maintain continuity... how to determine what does and doesn't fit into the "Prime Timeline." It's helpful to have rules of construction for that sort of thing. In the same way that courts have rules of construction for how to interpret the law. For instance: if you have two different statutes, both passed by the legislature at some point and signed into law, that contradict each other if read one way, and can be made congruent if read another way, a court is inclined to prefer the second way. It just makes sense to let things make sense, rather than forcing a conflict.

In the case at hand, there's a line of dialogue that has two possible readings, both of which work within the episode, but only one of which is compatible with the show's long-term themes and other aspects of canon. It seems only logical to prefer that reading.

Moreover... even if the "no women captains" reading were unequivocal, it would still be a poor example of what MM was trying to claim about how retcons work. First of all, as I've noted, that would make it an instance in which later stories (e.g., in ENT) directly contradicted an earlier point of continuity, not merely "ignored" it in the way ENT's Augment story has thus far been ignored by DSC. Second, we're still talking about just one line of dialogue (from an unreliable source, at that), so even if it were contradicted by a retcon and hence superseded, the rest of "Enterprise Incident" and indeed all of TOS would remain intact... whereas the implications of MM's argument would be to completely wipe away an entire two-episode story. (And, moreover, a story that helps make sense of other continuity far more than it hinders it.) There's no rule of construction that makes sense of that.
We simply don't have the data points to contradict that interpretation though. Again, like I said, I'm reading things from the 60s and 70s that have that opinion and treated as just accepted from that episode.

Also, I don't see anything in DISCO that states these are the only Klingons. And I'll remain on that interpretation until demonstrated otherwise.
 
As others pointed out, if she was merely referring to Kirk's inability to keep a relationship the rest of the episode would have played into that, but instead it only reinforcers the idea that the only way Lester can become a captain is if she's a man, so she decides to switch bodies with Kirk so she can be a captain. After all, it's a teaser, designed to give you an idea of what an episode is about before it proceeds.

It's a stupid episode, and deserved to be retconned in context of the rest of the franchise. I rather ignore it and pretend it didn't happen, like I ignore Spock teasing Rand about her enjoying being raped at the end of "The Enemy Within".

I see it as ‘you chose your ship over me, so now I am stealing your ship, your body, your very self in revenge. I offered myself and you chose your ship. Now I have forced my self on you and it’s all you have...’ but like I said, the sexist reading never occurred to me, because by that point it didn’t even occur..I lived in a different world, perspective wise.
 
As flawed as STID was, the portrayal of Klingons was excellent, in my opinion. Too often in the TNG era the Klingons are portrayed as drunken violent biker gangs which make you wonder how they even got into space. STIDs Klingons are eminently competent, calm and measured in their approach, sophisticated linguistically, and downright cool. Their role in the movie was what Worf's so often was, to be set up as a scary badass in order that, when they were defeated hands down by the big bad, he would look incredibly badass. But they did that role very well while appearing like decent spacefaring soldiers.

The STID Klingons did seem more cunning and diabolical like their TOS counterparts. The cunning smile that the lead Klingon gives Uhura after he removes his helmet and begins speaking to her reminds me a little of how Kor interacted with Kirk on Organia. A moment of calm and even sophisticated intimidation before the carnage begins. So far none of the DSC Klingons have exhibited that kind of behavior with the arguable exception of Kol in his meeting and battle with Burnham.
 
Also, I don't see anything in DISCO that states these are the only Klingons. And I'll remain on that interpretation until demonstrated otherwise.
I completely agree. The fact that we haven't seen Augment-style "human looking" Klingons (or for that matter hirsute movie/TNG style ones), doesn't mean they don't exist in DSC's reality, or that any previous story featuring them has been retconned away. MirrorMirror was asserting the opposite, which is how this whole sub-discussion started.
 
Just cast it aside as a failed project and classify it like the Genesis Device. problem solved.
fpkaEWS.jpg
 
I completely agree. The fact that we haven't seen Augment-style "human looking" Klingons (or for that matter hirsute movie/TNG style ones), doesn't mean they don't exist in DSC's reality, or that any previous story featuring them has been retconned away. MirrorMirror was asserting the opposite, which is how this whole sub-discussion started.

The fact of how hard it was to make Ash, and the fact we have been told this is how human looking spys of TOS are made.It makes zero sense they have ones that look man.

They have no need to do this if they look human.
 
22nd century Romulan cloaking technology. The Delphic Expanse. The Temporal Cold War. Spore hub drive propulsion. The Genesis Project.

There are quite a few things that Starfleet crews of later generations and centuries don't seem to be aware of, most likely as a result of information being classified and restricted to a need-to-know basis by only flag officers, intelligence and civilian leaders.
 
Even Chekov seems to have forgotten he'd been there. I know it was 18 years later but you'd think the trauma of Khan attempting to commandeer the Enterprise and detaining or imprisoning the ship's crew would have been enough to remember in which solar system Kirk had dumped him into exile.
 
The fact of how hard it was to make Ash, and the fact we have been told this is how human looking spys of TOS are made.
When did anyone say that? If Darvin was the result of an extensive surgical alteration like Voq Tyler, how was McCoy able to detect him so quickly with a tricorder? It took two full scans from the shipboard medical computer to detect even a hint at Tyler's, and a third was required to determine exactly what that hint meant. And even then, they still needed L'Rell to explain things. So what, just because they know what to look for, suddenly the process is simplified so that a quick scan with a tricorder reveals all?

I'll stick to the belief that Darvin was only cosmetically altered to appear human but was all Klingon on the inside.
 
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