Poll Do you consider Discovery to truly be in the Prime Timeline at this point?
- Thread starter Annorax849
- Start date
Depends on how narrow you want to see "democracy". The US for example has voting rights for all citizens over 18, so technically it isn't a vote that is truly representative of the entire population. Then again the US is probably not the bestest example. With how the electoral college is more important than the popular vote.
ETA: For the record, I think the USA is a democracy.
Exclamation marks are, however, a renewable resource.
It's a republic. A representative republic, which means the will of the people is certainly at play, but the population does not vote on every single issue. If one reads the Founders intent they did want to avoid the tyranny of the majority and allow smaller states a voice as well as the larger, more populous ones.
Ah, poli sci
My dearest Jinn, voting is just a ruse! They or others we do not know of yet have already decided the outcome of the vote before the first slip is received!
JB
Classic Pinky and the Brain
A republic is a type of representative democracy. The two terms aren't mutually exclusive.
Fair point.
It's a republic. A representative republic, which means the will of the people is certainly at play, but the population does not vote on every single issue. If one reads the Founders intent they did want to avoid the tyranny of the majority and allow smaller states a voice as well as the larger, more populous ones.
Ah, poli sci
They were well-intentioned but short-sighted. Now we live by the
While I agree that Romulans were changed for change sake, there IS scientific theory that it won’t take human colonists too long to start looking different from earth humans. It may take as little as 2-3 generations. In The Expanse they touched on it. belters who were born there are visibly different from Earthlings.
I guess that means the TOS movies don't take place in the Prime Universe or Berman Trek doesn't. Take your pick.
Don't give CBS any ideas, man.
Have you seen Remans?...
I've seen speculation along those lines about rapid adaptation to new environments. I remain skeptical, but it's led to some interesting SF stories. Nothing about that would really explain forehead ridges, however.
2000 years of frowning
THE WOMEN!!!!!!!!
There. I've solved the global energy problem. Where's my Nobel Prize and hookers?
My BS explanation for the change in the Romulan's appearance between ENT, TOS/movies, & the TNG-era:
Back during the Time of the Awakening, when the logic embracing Vulcan followers of Surak were fighting the remaining emotional Vulcans who "marched beneath the Raptor's wings" for control of the planet following a devastating global nuclear war, psionic weapons like the Stone of Gol that could target and kill anyone experiencing aggressive emotions en masse were the primary method of defeating the armies of the Raptor followers.
As a countermeasure against this psionic weapon, the Raptor cult soldiers and spies underwent drastic rapid genetic enhancement to their brains to give them a mental and physical block against psionic weapons and also the new "mind meld" technique that the Surakian intelligence agents would use to interrogate prisoners of war and find out their secrets, which was far more effective and invasive than normal Vulcan touch telepathy. The genetic manipulation was based on the DNA of ridged non-telepathic proto-Vulcans like the Mintakans and Debrune.
The side effect of this genetic procedure was a large v-shaped forehead ridge and the loss of their telepathic abilities, just like their proto-Vulcan ancestors.
Only the soldiers and Shiar spies underwent this procedure, since they were most at risk from psionic wrapons, while the ruling class and elites retained their normal Vulcan appearance and latent telepathic abilities.
For a time this turned the tide of the war, and the Raptor cult pushed the Surakians back to their last defensive position at the holy shrine of Mt. Seleya, where a final battle between the two badly weakened foes was fought. In the end, the Surakians emerged victorious.
The Raptor cult was offered peace in exchange for embracing a life of pure logic without emotion, but most refused, so they were instead exiled offworld in the primitive sublight generational ships of the day.
After several centuries drifting through space in search of a home and seeding various colony worlds, the Raptor followers arrived at a binary planetary system; one an idyllic but resource poor paradise (later Starfleet designation: Romulus), and the other a cold, dark, barren but resource rich wasteland (Starfleet designation: Remus).
On their journey, the resentment between the soldier/spy class and the ruling elites festered, and upon reaching their new home, the underclass revolted, gaining control for a time. They exiled some of the telepathic former rulers to slave labor in the mines of Remus. Those original inhabitants, after 2000+ years of underground toxic living and genetic manipulation to survive, became the drastically altered telepathic Remans.
Meanwhile back on Romulus, eventually after millennia, the surviving Vulcanoid Romuilans seized power again in the mid-23rd century, instituting brutal crackdowns that would ensure the dominance of the smooth forehead Romulans for decades to come, and returning to the galactic stage after 100 years of self-imposed isolation following their defeat in the Romulan War. Ridged Romulans could serve in the armies and naval fleets, but they were always forced to wear a helmet with a v-shaped front to conceal the ridges which were their great shame and source of inferiority in the eyes of the Vulcanoids, even though they had mostly lost their telepathic powers as well after millennia of disuse.
This status quo lasted until 2311 and the Tomed Incident against the Federation, which resulted in the ridged Romulans seizing power again and instituting another self-imposed exile to recoup their losses from the recent Klingon and Federation conflicts, and to advance their technology. They began interfering in Klingon border affairs again in the 2340s, and openly returned to the full galactic stage in the 2260s after the Borg began attacking their colonies along the Neutral Zone.
The Romulans were back in full force and ridged for your displeasure, the military (Imperial fleet) and spy class (Tal'Shiar) firmly in control of the government. There were still Vulcanoid Romulans around, but they were a small minority now, just as there is a small minority of ridged, non-telepathic Vulcans left over from those who remained after the Time of the Awakening. Which is how the Vulcan isolationist terrorist Tellara in TNG Gambit could freely move about on Vulcan without drawing suspicion despite her ridges, or how the Romulan spy who was influencing the Vulcan High Command member in the 2150s on ENT could move around freely with his ridges.
FIN.
Back during the Time of the Awakening, when the logic embracing Vulcan followers of Surak were fighting the remaining emotional Vulcans who "marched beneath the Raptor's wings" for control of the planet following a devastating global nuclear war, psionic weapons like the Stone of Gol that could target and kill anyone experiencing aggressive emotions en masse were the primary method of defeating the armies of the Raptor followers.
As a countermeasure against this psionic weapon, the Raptor cult soldiers and spies underwent drastic rapid genetic enhancement to their brains to give them a mental and physical block against psionic weapons and also the new "mind meld" technique that the Surakian intelligence agents would use to interrogate prisoners of war and find out their secrets, which was far more effective and invasive than normal Vulcan touch telepathy. The genetic manipulation was based on the DNA of ridged non-telepathic proto-Vulcans like the Mintakans and Debrune.
The side effect of this genetic procedure was a large v-shaped forehead ridge and the loss of their telepathic abilities, just like their proto-Vulcan ancestors.
Only the soldiers and Shiar spies underwent this procedure, since they were most at risk from psionic wrapons, while the ruling class and elites retained their normal Vulcan appearance and latent telepathic abilities.
For a time this turned the tide of the war, and the Raptor cult pushed the Surakians back to their last defensive position at the holy shrine of Mt. Seleya, where a final battle between the two badly weakened foes was fought. In the end, the Surakians emerged victorious.
The Raptor cult was offered peace in exchange for embracing a life of pure logic without emotion, but most refused, so they were instead exiled offworld in the primitive sublight generational ships of the day.
After several centuries drifting through space in search of a home and seeding various colony worlds, the Raptor followers arrived at a binary planetary system; one an idyllic but resource poor paradise (later Starfleet designation: Romulus), and the other a cold, dark, barren but resource rich wasteland (Starfleet designation: Remus).
On their journey, the resentment between the soldier/spy class and the ruling elites festered, and upon reaching their new home, the underclass revolted, gaining control for a time. They exiled some of the telepathic former rulers to slave labor in the mines of Remus. Those original inhabitants, after 2000+ years of underground toxic living and genetic manipulation to survive, became the drastically altered telepathic Remans.
Meanwhile back on Romulus, eventually after millennia, the surviving Vulcanoid Romuilans seized power again in the mid-23rd century, instituting brutal crackdowns that would ensure the dominance of the smooth forehead Romulans for decades to come, and returning to the galactic stage after 100 years of self-imposed isolation following their defeat in the Romulan War. Ridged Romulans could serve in the armies and naval fleets, but they were always forced to wear a helmet with a v-shaped front to conceal the ridges which were their great shame and source of inferiority in the eyes of the Vulcanoids, even though they had mostly lost their telepathic powers as well after millennia of disuse.
This status quo lasted until 2311 and the Tomed Incident against the Federation, which resulted in the ridged Romulans seizing power again and instituting another self-imposed exile to recoup their losses from the recent Klingon and Federation conflicts, and to advance their technology. They began interfering in Klingon border affairs again in the 2340s, and openly returned to the full galactic stage in the 2260s after the Borg began attacking their colonies along the Neutral Zone.
The Romulans were back in full force and ridged for your displeasure, the military (Imperial fleet) and spy class (Tal'Shiar) firmly in control of the government. There were still Vulcanoid Romulans around, but they were a small minority now, just as there is a small minority of ridged, non-telepathic Vulcans left over from those who remained after the Time of the Awakening. Which is how the Vulcan isolationist terrorist Tellara in TNG Gambit could freely move about on Vulcan without drawing suspicion despite her ridges, or how the Romulan spy who was influencing the Vulcan High Command member in the 2150s on ENT could move around freely with his ridges.
FIN.
Have you seen Remans?...
I've seen speculation along those lines about rapid adaptation to new environments. I remain skeptical, but it's led to some interesting SF stories. Nothing about that would really explain forehead ridges, however.
Perhaps Romulans briefly mixed with Klingons at a time of fairly low population... and Remans with Disco Klingons
I always assumed the romulans in BoT had ridges under their helmets and the smooth brows were of a higher social class (descended directly from the Vulcans) and ruled the empire in the 23rd C. There’s a similar thing in Beta canon explaining this I think.
And the post literally two posts above yours.
It's a republic. A representative republic, which means the will of the people is certainly at play, but the population does not vote on every single issue. If one reads the Founders intent they did want to avoid the tyranny of the majority and allow smaller states a voice as well as the larger, more populous ones.
Ah, poli sci
@fireproof78 I like you. And I really don't want to turn this thread into a politics discussion. But every time someone repeats that "The founders" and "tyranny of the majority" oxymoron, it painfully shows they either don't know what they are talking about, or are willfully repeating far rightwing lies. Which are btw not even that old, this is purely a lie invented to justify the election of Donald Trump (and Bush before) as the president, while in both cases more people directly voted for the competitor. That's why this has never, ever showed up in history, school or anything before, and comes purely from Fox news and radiohosts in the last few years.
The original intents of the founders was a representative Republic. Which has the main characteristics that, you know, it should be representitive of the people in it.
The only thing the Founders really "intentionally" wanted to avoid was the election of a populistic demagogue or monarch. That is what the electoral college with it's electors was put in place for.
But when the Republic was founded, all states had a somewhat equal distribution of population. There simply weren't any megastates with 80 mio. people in them in the first place. Urbanisation happened A LOT later. The electoral college simply was the best possible means to have the closest representation possible at the time.
The only (big!) part where the founders cheated, and actively didn't wanted perfectly equal representation, was the 3/5th compromise - where they counted the population of slaves as 3/5 of "regular" citizens for allocating vote shares, because the South had a much smaller white population as the North, but a large slave population. The number was selected arbitrary, to give both parts of the country a somewhat equal weight (the South wouldn't have accepted being able to be outvoted - especially on their slave thingy - but the North didn't want to allocate the vote shares of slaves which had no say in their representation to their slaveholders - thus giving them even more unwarranted representation). That shit is still in the constitution btw.
But never assume America was founded under the belive "rural" voters should be represented equally as "urban" voters - there simply wasn't such a divide at the time. The only thing they wanted - explicitly - is the closest possible represantitive system that is possible to implement at the time. Honestly, if they had the technological means to have a count of every single vote on federal level - they would have done it.
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