Do Submarines make sense in the Trek universe?

[Timo]

In the Star trek universe, the Klingon Bird of Prey was hit by photon torpedoes, did two timewarps and kept running, but when dipped into seawater promptly sank.

Why should this be a "problem" or "discontinuity" or a "shortcoming" or whatnot? It makes sense that starships would be denser than water (say, the mass figures quoted by Scotty and Janeway for their respective ships would certainly dictate that).

The BoP sinks, just as it should, but this in itself is not a problem for our heroes. Their problem is that the vessel has lost all power, meaning it would be pretty stupid to sink with it. So they blow a hatch to effect their own escape, and Kirk then struggles to help the whales out, too.

The alternative would have been not to blow any hatches, which would have been fine until the air grew stale and the heroes and the whales suffocated. Of course, the rest of the planet would have come to their rescue before that happened, but they couldn't really count on it, especially as it would have delayed releasing the whales and thus saving that planet. They were in a hurry of sorts.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

In the Star trek universe, the Klingon Bird of Prey was hit by photon torpedoes, did two timewarps and kept running, but when dipped into seawater promptly sank.

Why should this be a "problem" or "discontinuity" or a "shortcoming" or whatnot? It makes sense that starships would be denser than water (say, the mass figures quoted by Scotty and Janeway for their respective ships would certainly dictate that).

The BoP sinks, just as it should, but this in itself is not a problem for our heroes. Their problem is that the vessel has lost all power, meaning it would be pretty stupid to sink with it. So they blow a hatch to effect their own escape, and Kirk then struggles to help the whales out, too.

The alternative would have been not to blow any hatches, which would have been fine until the air grew stale and the heroes and the whales suffocated. Of course, the rest of the planet would have come to their rescue before that happened, but they couldn't really count on it, especially as it would have delayed releasing the whales and thus saving that planet. They were in a hurry of sorts.

Timo Saloniemi

The Klingon bop sank because the big cylinder made it's circuitry fail otherwise it wouldn't have sunk or at least it would have been waterproof and able to get back up.

 

[Timo]

There we have to completely disagree. I see no reason for the BoP to float (at least any better than it did) even with all the power on. If it's denser than water, it sinks. That's not a fault or a shortcoming, it's what it's supposed to do in water.

Indeed, I think it's a major error that the BoP floated at all. It ought to have been much too heavy for that, unless some sort of a mass-reducing gadget was running. But with the power loss, there shouldn't have been one.

Then again, it was not a total power loss: they still had not just insignificantly feeble things such as interior lighting, but also something to steer with. Perhaps all the gravity doodads were working, too?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

There we have to completely disagree. I see no reason for the BoP to float (at least any better than it did) even with all the power on. If it's denser than water, it sinks. That's not a fault or a shortcoming, it's what it's supposed to do in water.

Indeed, I think it's a major error that the BoP floated at all. It ought to have been much too heavy for that, unless some sort of a mass-reducing gadget was running. But with the power loss, there shouldn't have been one.

Then again, it was not a total power loss: they still had not just insignificantly feeble things such as interior lighting, but also something to steer with. Perhaps all the gravity doodads were working, too?

Timo Saloniemi

I see no reason for a bop or any ship for that matter to be denser than water. Most of the ship is air, otherwise its crew wouldn't be able to breathe for long. So the rest would have to be incredibly denser than water to compensate.

 

[The Wormhole]

The Xindi-Insectoid shuttlecraft was also a submersible, that Archer took underwater on Azati Prime to try to take out the Xindi superweapon.

Although, I found the approach taken to discovering it was submersible a stupid one. Trip and Mayweather flying the thing over an ocean having this conversation:

"Let's go underwater."
"Can we?"
"Why not? This thing's been tested in a gas giant. It's only water."

That's not exactly sound logic to me.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

 

[fireproof78]

There we have to completely disagree. I see no reason for the BoP to float (at least any better than it did) even with all the power on. If it's denser than water, it sinks. That's not a fault or a shortcoming, it's what it's supposed to do in water.

Indeed, I think it's a major error that the BoP floated at all. It ought to have been much too heavy for that, unless some sort of a mass-reducing gadget was running. But with the power loss, there shouldn't have been one.

Then again, it was not a total power loss: they still had not just insignificantly feeble things such as interior lighting, but also something to steer with. Perhaps all the gravity doodads were working, too?

Timo Saloniemi

I see no reason for a bop or any ship for that matter to be denser than water. Most of the ship is air, otherwise its crew wouldn't be able to breathe for long. So the rest would have to be incredibly denser than water to compensate.

There are estimates out there of the BoP's weight being 30,000 tons, and the design of the vessel does not indicate any means to displace the water in a matter to overcome such mass.

Sorry, I'm not a physics major, but the shape of it does not make sense to me.

As for the topic on hand, I think that starships can operate for a limited time underwater, but are not designed to do so for very long, or would require massive power requirements to support the structure and repel the pressure. Submarines, or submersible auxiliary craft, such as the aquashuttle, make more sense to me.

 

[kirkfan]

^It's obvious that you don't know much of anything.

 

[Timo]

You should quit while you are so far behind, kirkfan. You got caught getting this whole "floating" thing wrong; let it be at that, and don't sink any deeper by your own ignorance.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

You should quit while you are so far behind, kirkfan. You got caught getting this whole "floating" thing wrong; let it be at that, and don't sink any deeper by your own ignorance.

Timo Saloniemi

I didn't get anything wrong. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to give any specific detail that would resist a closer look, which is why you're trying to keep your insulting as vague and imprecise as possible. That's what one usually expects from an ignorant blowhard, such as yourself.

 

[Timo]

"Your insulting"...

Examples of things that float because there's air inside:

- Ships. Very barely. Indeed, just google for the Spanish submarine that recently was built a tad too heavy by engineering accident.
- Some aircraft. Because they are built to be extremely light. And basically only if they have a huge passenger section in comparison with the overall size. You really, really don't want to be in a helicopter "landing" in the water...

Examples of things that don't float despite having (and retaining) air inside:

- Basically all road-mobile and rail-mobile vehicles. The VW Beetle is about the only automobile that doesn't sink like a stone when hitting water, and they don't build them like they used to.
- Everything else besides polymer-walled porta-pots.

The Klingon BoP is a good example of a shape that doesn't suggest major air cavities inside, and the writing and photography relating to the design also reinforces the idea that the interior is cramped despite the exterior being reasonably voluminous. That's what you get when you have machinery inside your machine...

In specific Star Trek terms, the TOS hero vessel masses "nearly a million tons" and the Voyager "700,000 tons" specifically. The resulting density certainly doesn't allow for flotation. We see the Voyager submerge without a hint of buoyancy; the upscaled Enterprise from ST:ID, likewise.

As for numbers, assuming a smallish BoP of 110 meters would yield about 40,000 cubic meters of volume. How do you squeeze those warp coils into less than 40,000 tons, if the Voyager with her short nacelles is a million-ton monster?

That's enough specific detail to sink your ship, kid. Just tone it down and let it be. Although learning some manners might help, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

"Your insulting"...

Examples of things that float because there's air inside:

- Ships. Very barely. Indeed, just google for the Spanish submarine that recently was built a tad too heavy by engineering accident.
- Some aircraft. Because they are built to be extremely light. And basically only if they have a huge passenger section in comparison with the overall size. You really, really don't want to be in a helicopter "landing" in the water...

Examples of things that don't float despite having (and retaining) air inside:

- Basically all road-mobile and rail-mobile vehicles. The VW Beetle is about the only automobile that doesn't sink like a stone when hitting water, and they don't build them like they used to.
- Everything else besides polymer-walled porta-pots.

The Klingon BoP is a good example of a shape that doesn't suggest major air cavities inside, and the writing and photography relating to the design also reinforces the idea that the interior is cramped despite the exterior being reasonably voluminous. That's what you get when you have machinery inside your machine...

In specific Star Trek terms, the TOS hero vessel masses "nearly a million tons" and the Voyager "700,000 tons" specifically. The resulting density certainly doesn't allow for flotation. We see the Voyager submerge without a hint of buoyancy; the upscaled Enterprise from ST:ID, likewise.

As for numbers, assuming a smallish BoP of 110 meters would yield about 40,000 cubic meters of volume. How do you squeeze those warp coils into less than 40,000 tons, if the Voyager with her short nacelles is a million-ton monster?

That's enough specific detail to sink your ship, kid. Just tone it down and let it be. Although learning some manners might help, too.

Timo Saloniemi

Cars only sink because they're not perfectly airtight due to the fact that sooner or later someone opens a window or a door to escape, otherwise they'd have enough buoyancy to keep their roofs above water. You'd get your facts straight before prattling on like you know anything, if not for the fact you are used to talk about things that you don't know anything about. Speaking of being a kid, if you're not one yourself then you have a desperately low IQ.

 

[1001001]

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!

Both of you knock it off.

Any more personal sniping, even just a tiny bit, and infractions will follow.

 

[fireproof78]

Until given some sort of math that demonstrates otherwise, I am going to go with the fact that the shape of the ship and mass (estimated) are not going to make the BoP float. As I said before, I'm no physicist but here are some basic figures done by Daystrom Institute.

I tried to calculate it but the volume of a BoP is not exactly an easy thing to do.

Any physics majors need a senior project? Anyone?

 

[kirkfan]

Until given some sort of math that demonstrates otherwise, I am going to go with the fact that the shape of the ship and mass (estimated) are not going to make the BoP float. As I said before, I'm no physicist but here are some basic figures done by Daystrom Institute.

I tried to calculate it but the volume of a BoP is not exactly an easy thing to do.

Any physics majors need a senior project? Anyone?

I wouldn't rely too much on calculations done by imaginary institutes if I were you. But that's just me. To each his own.

 

[fireproof78]

Until given some sort of math that demonstrates otherwise, I am going to go with the fact that the shape of the ship and mass (estimated) are not going to make the BoP float. As I said before, I'm no physicist but here are some basic figures done by Daystrom Institute.

I tried to calculate it but the volume of a BoP is not exactly an easy thing to do.

Any physics majors need a senior project? Anyone?

I wouldn't rely too much on calculations done by imaginary institutes if I were you. But that's just me. To each his own.

Seeing as how I'm working with an imaginary vehicle, it seemed appropriate

Otherwise, I'm not sure how to calculate the BoP's figures, since it is never given in on screen.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So, in TVH, did the HMS Bounty float, or did she run aground in the bay?

 

[BK613]

^^ If this is an indication of where she ended up, then I would surmise that her engine-heavy tail is resting on the bottom, leaving her at the steep slant we see in the movie. A quick check of nautical maps shows the depths there in the 50-100 foot range, with some spots shallower.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So, in TVH, did the HMS Bounty float, or did she run aground in the bay?

I though she wound up in a flooded parking lot.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So, in TVH, did the HMS Bounty float, or did she run aground in the bay?

I though she wound up in a flooded parking lot.

(whispering) "But why...?"