• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Discovery starship discussion [SPOILERS]

Alright, who's got the screen caps and the hastily measured comparisons? You all know exactly what I'm referring to.

Not much need to measure - the portholes are at their usual places. And the comparison shot is in flattering perspective, with the big Discovery farther away from the camera.

So basically we're at liberty to use the F-word after the re-, instead of the I-word. Although it's gonna be a back-and-forth-F if we insist on "visual Prime".

The engines look ancient. They have four-pronged bows, the rectangle-tape blue field windows, the plates-and-bolts appearance, all screaming ENT.

The neck is shaped as in the TMP refit, which is my one grievance, aesthetically speaking.

The font is fancy, apparently not identical to that of, say, the fellow oldtimer Shenzhou, but close, which is not to my liking because it makes the back-and-forth-refitting idea all the more aesthetics-based.

The rest of the episode of course becomes somewhat ancillary to the last minute and a half. Fun detail there, very Klingon architecture, very Orion Orions, nice atmosphere (literally). I can almost smell those fried Ceti eels. And we now have a direct answer to the burning question of "what is the right number?". No biggies in the tech department: nifty drone tech, an explosive (or catalyst?) a tad too potent for plausibility, beautiful Klingon transporter effect. They have "gravitic beams" for fighting a planet's gravity when they land a starship.

The conclusion is like a wet cloth, which I can appreciate a lot, having had my eye bulge out last weekend due to exposure to horses. Wet cloth is good. The world needs more wet cloth. And I didn't see Tyler leaving, but that was good, too. But who minds the plot? Who remembers the plot? Soon enough, we got Pike.

The most intriguing bit to me were the off-focus uniforms at the Big Speech scene (is that supposed to be the Academy hall as seen in the Abrams movies?), with lighter touches of blue, almost as in "The Cage"...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Last edited:
Not a fan of the cut-out sections in the pylons, but overall I think they showed great restraint with this reimagining of the Constitution-class.
 
I am not for any changes. Given that,do we now thinking in terms of TOS, TOS-R, and TOS-D? Or hope by 2264 the ship gets refitted to what we are used to?
 
The most intriguing bit to me were the off-focus uniforms at the Big Speech scene (is that supposed to be the Academy hall as seen in the Abrams movies?), with lighter touches of blue, almost as in "The Cage"...

Timo Saloniemi
Yes! Exactly what I thought, frustrating that we never got to see them in focus, and never got to see that final hail on the viewscreen...
 
It is strange that they were out of focus - almost intentionally so. IIRC, someone on the production staff did say that they were moving towards a more TOS aesthetic as the series progresses, so maybe this is another semi-hidden Easter Egg to indicate this.

As far as real-world situations apply, I do know that there are several-year overlap grace periods in the uniform code for transitioning between old and new uniform styles. This time may have even been extended when personnel were required to buy their own clothes ("general issue" doesn't seem to apply any more, at least to the National Guard from what I've been told). The US Navy is undergoing one of those transitions right now between the all-blue "aquaflage" and a newer greenish pattern.

Fun Fact #1) All modern digital camouflage patterns used by the US Armed Forces appear to be identical but are not. Each uniform has different positioning of patterns, as well as subtle differences within the patterns themselves, modeled and printed by computer on the fabric. The idea being, each person's uniform is as unique as their fingerprint, so they can be identified on-camera even if their faces can't be seen.

Fun Fact #2) The digital camouflage used by the USMC (MARPAT) has tiny little miniature eagle/globe/anchor logos imprinted throughout the pattern.

In-universe, we saw both TNG-era uniforms and early-DS9/VOY-era jumpsuits on the E-D in Generations. It is entirely possible that some elements of Starfleet are already transitioning and other elements haven't yet. Having just been in the middle of a life-and-death existential war for a year, I suspect that picking new uniform styles wasn't high on the priority list for the admiralty.
 
Last edited:
To fill in the season gap with speculation, we could decide that the jackets of "The Cage" are X and the jumpsuits of the Discovery and all other known starship crews of the show so far are Y. So, what are X and Y?

The Abrams movies had very much this sort of a thing going, with drab formal wear for Earth, and with the tricolor pullovers for deep space, with or without jackets. The TOS movies lacked the drab formal wear, but we could argue the Monster Maroons were just TOS style pullovers with jackets and the heroes used the jackets more for reason Z (perhaps because their adventures were very formal and donning the jacket is what people do at the Academy).

So... Why should Lorca insist on formal wear aboard his ship (because formal it is, with all the Admirals choosing to wear it, too)? Why did the skipper of the Gagarin do the same? Why Georgiou (who chose this wear before there was war, so we can't use that distinction)? Will Pike choose differently?

This situation rather parallels late DS9, where line and flag uniforms were the same, although we could also say it parallels TOS, where the same thing was true from the other end.

In-universe, we saw both TNG-era uniforms and early-DS9/VOY-era jumpsuits on the E-D in Generations.

I'd rather not see a transition there at all, but rather two parallel types of uniform seeing preferred, segregated use until the occasion rises for mixed use instead.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The first Disco novel suggests the Cage uniforms were specifically for the Constitution class ships at this point - a kind of special uniform for Starfleet's elite ships. Canonically we've only seen them on the Enterprise and the Antares, which might have surplus ex-Starfleet uniforms by the time everyone else has moved to the proper TOS shirts.
 
This is a tad more plausible now that we have learned that Pike is a Hero already. We don't know why this should be - is it the Talos misadventure, or did Pike earn the deep space command at what seems to be low age and low rank because he did something Heroic during his previous command? But he could in theory be rewarded with Pattonesque customized uniforms for the latter sort (while the explanation of course can't cover the Talos heroics).

The other alternative is that this seemingly less formal wear is for low-ranking losers in command of microships. While Pike isn't a loser on Saru's list, we may argue this is because of Talos, and indeed Pike has now upgraded to the DSC uniforms thanks to his higher profile.

I really doubt either model can withstand the trial by fire of the Season Two opener. But the episode will probably be devastating to the novel rationalization overall, too.

Timo Saloniemi
 
It's difficult because all we know about Pike is that he was captain of the Enterprise, lost a load of crew to some medieval-level monsters, then prevailed in the Talos incident before being burnt to a crisp and stuck in a 1920s steam bath a decade later.

He's treated like he's top brass by Kirk and Mendez, so he likely has a more impressive CV than we've seen thus far.
 
I'm gonna do my best at notes here early. It's been rightly frustrating having real life interfere with spending a couple hours writing these up in a joyful ignorance of employment or family. :P

- "Previously on Discovery" in Klingon. Ha.

- The Klingon fleet poised to strike at earth at the top of the episode has all of six vessels, including a BoP. I realize that there’s no telling how many ships are BEHIND those six from the camera’s POV, but it seems almost odd not showing a massed armada of dozens or hundreds of ships as we did in the opener.

- To be fair though, at the end we see six ships peel away from Earth visual, but there were more BoPs in that shot.

- Yep, the opener of Earth orbit does indeed show what looks like the Spacedock mushroom from STIII et. al., under construction no less! The shot cuts to Qo’noS with a wipe-by of an intact communications satellite also from the opener.

- The Moon is NOT that close to the Earth. On the plus side though, on its dark side you can see quite a lot of colonization has occurred in the past couple centuries. Lunar schooners represent!

- However, I’m not at all convinced that the orientation of the moon and planets is at all correct. Jupiter for example matches the sunlight coming in from the shot’s upper left; however Jupiter has an axial inclination of just 3.3%, so there’s no way this could ever happen. On Earth, its acis tile is 23.4% but I’m still not sure that would result in the odd orientation of North America that we see.

- We start with Discovery at 12ly out from Qo’noS. Near or far, it sounds a lot like they should be pretty close to any number of Klingon forces. Even “running dark”, it’s not like they have a cloak of their own…

- Busting into L’Rell’s cell for a little bad cop – bad cop – Michael go away, Georgiou lowers the containment field AND zaps L’Rell’s outfit a bit. I was wondering I those accessories on her garb were functional or not… It seems to stun her slightly but doesn’t incapacitate her, perhaps tilting the interrogation field a bit in Pippa’s favour?

- Back in the conference room, as the gang scrutinizes what little information they have on Qo’noS, at one point Tyler points to a specific chimney and the hologram obediently highlights it without any context. It’s hardly the first time we’ve seen this sort of thing, but how intuitive are the computers in this era meant to be, anyway?

- Furthermore, Archer was there with his Enterprise at least twice by my reckoning, and NO ONE bothers to scan the planet? Maybe it was just considered rude?

- Hey, the conference room set is even less the same as the starbase version as I thought. The central table is completely different and smaller – the one on the starbase was also made of wood and had a sort of notch for one person to stand and pontificate. The chairs, walls and other elements are the same, though as previously noted they added windows to the Discovery set; and here the lights are more permanently moody instead of “purposely” turned down for Lorca’s sake (or are they? Were they just being nice for Pippa’s sake?).

- When Pippa summons Tilly, she enters from a directly-adjacent Discovery turbolift set. Is there another entrance to this conference room? Or is this a practical use of the turbolift car as both transport vehicle and hallway? The Starbase set door opened onto a generic wall with a big Starfleet symbol on it.

- Tilly is able to restore her straight locks in the space of a scene change. It’s a wonderful little touch but is it really the time for that kind of vanity? Or, it really is that easy, since the Emperor changed her hair length when she donned her doppleganger’s uniform.

- Upon sporing into the really, really big cavern (and I’m guessing no Klingon was spelunking that day), Detmer notes that the ship’s “stabilizer beams” are compensating for the local gravity. We know that Dicovery has a lot of TRACTOR beam emitters mounted externally, but are these categorically different? Are we ignoring other instances of tractor / repulsor beam tech in the franchise by having these so readily available for popping into huge caves?

- The same transporter operator from last week was at the controls again today, this time with a pal on the opposing console. He beams the party out, but no mention is made of his collusion from the top of the previous episode. Methinks it’s a simple member of giving an extra a line or two, which this production seems pretty nice to do. As it stands, Discovery has a fully enumerated and named bridge crew member for every station, and while their characters aren’t particularly fleshed out, it’s nice to see them maintain a constant Ayala-like familiarity on the ship instead of having random extras populating the bridge all the time.

- Zooming into the Orion outpost, we hear random TNG-era transporter SFX (before the landing party beams in). I’m guessing by this point the sound editors don’t know how this random use of sound clips can grate on fans who grew up on each era of Trek having a distinct sound effects environment. :)

- The writers, meanwhile, correctly acknowledge the use of the darsek as the unit of Klingon Kurrency from both the ENT and TNG eras. And yet still no one knows what the hell an isik is, possibly for another hundred years. :P

- Great use of the Orions in the context of the worldbuilding here. To me, it doesn’t make sense that a giant intergalactic empire would be so homogeneous in its makeup, nor would it forbid any offworlders to have a presence on its homeworld. Good to acknowledge this here – I’m guessing that O-town is a pretty strictly regulated place in terms of being one of few places non-Klingons can freely hang out.

- Pretty sure the Orion Hooters joint is a re-use of the throne room set. No wonder Pippa is so comfortable there. :) But would Dax be? Those are certainly Trill spots… Or at least Kriosian.

- Whoever the spotted one is, assuming that’s her later, she’s covering up her attractive spotting with tattooage. Or is she? The ink seems to be deployable and possibly retractable at a touch. For those who enjoy hot springs in Japan, this is actually a good thing.

- Could they have come up with a better name than “hydro” bomb? For some reason I keep imagining those cherry bombs you put in the toilet.

- Qo’noS is correctly shown as having only one moon. We all know what happens to it.

- When Pippa draws her weapon on Burnham, we hear it charge up / prime / chamber / whatever in a familiar fashion as all energy weapons in this show. However, when Burnham subsequently grabs the pistol and pulls it to her chest, we hear it charge AGAIN.

- Once the Klingon fleet breaks away from Earth, we’re treated to a nice zoom in to Paris. On the way, we DON’T see spacedock, the Moon is in a different place (suggesting that maybe a week has past, but I really don’t think they were putting to much thought into it), and at least three of the “spire” type starbases we’re familiar with by now.

- We also VERY quickly zoom past several starships. I’m fairly certain the one that zooms directly overhead is a Crossfield-class ship oriented towards the camera. This COULD be Discovery, or not, as the timeline covered by this shot isn’t clear. Did the Klingons stick around for when Discovery came home?

- For those among us who have actually been to Paris and know the area around the Eiffel tower, it seems as though the place gets significantly remodeled over time! The park area is more or less where it is today, but the Seine river is comparatively tiny. I’m sure Paris was one of the many cities that is thoroughly nuked in WWIII and the Eiffel Tower is more than likely a replica, but there’s quite a bit of urban redevelopment that’s going to happen. Nevermind that Paris has (had) an ordinance decreeing that no building in the city may be taller than 590 feet – so THAT seems to have gone away too. For the record, the Eiffel Tower is 1063 feet tall.

- Burnham is in her usual silver for much of the episode, then changes to gold for her Big Speech (and the badge Sarek pins to her silver uniform is gold), then back to silver to take up her permanent (?) posting as science officer of Discovery. This makes a certain amount of sense, as her expunged record would therefore return her to her rank and position she was in before all this mutiny non-nonsense, and before she got re-assigned as Discovery's science officer.

- Get a good look at the hardware on the admiralty? It’s clearly based on the triangular badges we see on the TOS dress uniforms. Great little nod.

- Is Tilly's promotion a brevet rank? She seems to have skipped over the usual pomp and circumstance of graduation so she could slap on a proper Ensign's badge and continue on with Discovery's journey. In the Big Speech, she was still in Engineering bronze, though it was noted she was accepted to the command training program; she’s still in Bronze at the end of the episode.

- Hey, the main monitor displays on the Saru / Burnham bridge consoles pivot!

- Yadda yadda, Enterprise. Looks great. Everything we see in “The Cage” is clearly a fever dream of Spock’s video reconstruction in “The Menagerie”, and no one bothered to call him out on it. Moving on. :)

Mark
 
Just picking the point about no one scanning Qo'nos, I think last week they established that the thick atmosphere meant previous ships hadn't been able to do an intensive topographic scan of the whole planet. The Klingons probably would have kindly asked them to stop anyway.
 
Heh, good catch. Though IMO I'm curious as to what "intensive" means. I mean, with 1980s satellite tech we were able to create a workable digital elevation model of Earth, and we were able to map magnetic fields and whatnot with technology decades older than that...

Mark
 
Heh, good catch. Though IMO I'm curious as to what "intensive" means. I mean, with 1980s satellite tech we were able to create a workable digital elevation model of Earth, and we were able to map magnetic fields and whatnot with technology decades older than that...

Mark
I think it means those green clouds are really thick. ;)
 
And yet we see what might be solar arrays on some of those O-town buildings. :P

I was re-watching the Big Speech scene and saw two of the light-blue Starfleet personel making like they were typing. Does the Federation still need stenographers? For awards ceremonies? And two of them?

Or did the director get it all wrong and those two were scratching the background music of the scene? :D

Mark
 
VFX people could make realistic geometry for planets in 2256, should they choose to. Most likely more dramatic than physical positioning.
 
Could you post an image with those features outlined? Thanks in advance.

Manners will get you everywhere.
SB1Planet_Markup.jpg


And the full shot, again, for reference:
SB1Planet.jpg


Oh, and here's a fun touch I heard about in the TMP Appreciation group on Facebook:
TMP_Klingon.png


The Klingon on the right is wearing an updating of the standard-issue Klingon armor tailoring from TMP-on. Either a retcon or a variation, whatever you like (for instance, we saw leather versions of that armor style in TUC). The throw in some Klingons with hair, a few more traditional-looking forehead-designs, maybe even some smoothies, and the Klingon makeup controversy will be no more!

The VFX controversy will take a little more work, but I really do hope that their post-mortem of the season includes a reckoning with regard to their art style and consistency for space shots. I'll be very disappointed if season two is more coarse modeling and texturing, dark blue fill-light, and weak kickers with no key.

Oh, and speaking of Klingons, I just remembered a nice touch I kept forgetting to mention here. Way back in the midseason finale, when Tyler is seeing L'Rell in the brig, the "Black Alert" audio warning is replaced with a more generic "Command Stations," which makes sense, since you probably don't want prisoners to know about what your exact alert status is, especially not the secret alert that isn't even supposed to exist.
 
- "Previously on Discovery" in Klingon. Ha.

...Netflix introduced "descriptive English" as a language option, and a default one, between the previous ep and this one. Fancy opening the episode with "Red Netflix text on white background" in sexy bass-baritone!

- The Klingon fleet poised to strike at earth at the top of the episode has all of six vessels, including a BoP. I realize that there’s no telling how many ships are BEHIND those six from the camera’s POV, but it seems almost odd not showing a massed armada of dozens or hundreds of ships as we did in the opener.
- To be fair though, at the end we see six ships peel away from Earth visual, but there were more BoPs in that shot.

One wonders if this fleet was multi-House: the supporting cast holo-messaged to Cornwell that the Klingons were "gathering" for the attack against Earth, but would this still have been a single-House raid to reap glory rather than to terminate the UFP?

- Yep, the opener of Earth orbit does indeed show what looks like the Spacedock mushroom from STIII et. al., under construction no less! The shot cuts to Qo’noS with a wipe-by of an intact communications satellite also from the opener.

And while the setup may include lots of artistic license, we may also argue Earth indeed is surrounded with that much hardware, meaning it's basically a Dyson shell of junk with dozens of installations visible to the naked eye. A wartime desperation measure, Trek's version of the Line?

- We start with Discovery at 12ly out from Qo’noS. Near or far, it sounds a lot like they should be pretty close to any number of Klingon forces. Even “running dark”, it’s not like they have a cloak of their own…

But they and they specifically can risk it, being the go-to ship for operating behind enemy lines because escape is always an option.

- Back in the conference room, as the gang scrutinizes what little information they have on Qo’noS, at one point Tyler points to a specific chimney and the hologram obediently highlights it without any context. It’s hardly the first time we’ve seen this sort of thing, but how intuitive are the computers in this era meant to be, anyway?

Kirk's tin-voice one knew to answer questions not asked. I guess the holo-interface could and should be quite refined, although it could also be that we're (not) seeing Tyler do the holographic version of double-click here, making a decision for the computer and forgoing intuition.

- Furthermore, Archer was there with his Enterprise at least twice by my reckoning, and NO ONE bothers to scan the planet? Maybe it was just considered rude?

Archer went there in "Broken Bow", but probably not in "Judgment". I trust his primitive sensors, early inexperience and a healthy degree of nervousness would have made his scans unhelpful when even 23rd century sensors have trouble with those thick green clouds.

- here the lights are more permanently moody instead of “purposely” turned down for Lorca’s sake (or are they? Were they just being nice for Pippa’s sake?).

Good question! The bridge lighting hasn't been altered after Lorca's (and now Georgiou's) departure, right? But the other dark spaces might warrant a change. Which I do not really expect to see.

Those MU folks have trouble adjusting to sudden brightness, but not to sustained brightness, it seems - else why would the Emperor open that porthole cover to her personal little spore star at all?

- When Pippa summons Tilly, she enters from a directly-adjacent Discovery turbolift set. Is there another entrance to this conference room? Or is this a practical use of the turbolift car as both transport vehicle and hallway? The Starbase set door opened onto a generic wall with a big Starfleet symbol on it.

...Perhaps this is Lorca's Secret Scheming Cavern, deliberately configured to only have turbolift access? The interiors of the ship are no doubt highly customized, what with the mushroomroom and the mancave and all.

- Upon sporing into the really, really big cavern (and I’m guessing no Klingon was spelunking that day), Detmer notes that the ship’s “stabilizer beams” are compensating for the local gravity. We know that Dicovery has a lot of TRACTOR beam emitters mounted externally, but are these categorically different? Are we ignoring other instances of tractor / repulsor beam tech in the franchise by having these so readily available for popping into huge caves?

Might be the cavern is deep enough underground that there's gravitic pull to unexpected directions, perhaps with major density variations contributing to it. As a default, the ship would just neatly hover after emerging from sporespace; in these special conditions, she starts tilting madly, and Owosekun has to hit special buttons to dodge the stalagmites (or whatever those things are called when they are of volcanic origin).

Remarkably, the ship shows no rocket flames when hovering, contrary to the Shenzhou and to an earlier hover over the dilithium mines. Newer tech? A different situation (how?)?

- The same transporter operator from last week was at the controls again today, this time with a pal on the opposing console.

He's been around since the beginning, I guess - whenever there's transporting with the control console included in the shot, we see him at it (the first time being in "Into the Forest").

We're still lacking a name for this character played by Michael Ayres, right?

- The writers, meanwhile, correctly acknowledge the use of the darsek as the unit of Klingon Kurrency from both the ENT and TNG eras. And yet still no one knows what the hell an isik is, possibly for another hundred years. :P

Even "Rivals" doesn't really help there - Bajoran money, El-Aurian money, something else altogether? The really curious thing is Amanda's mom knowing about it.

- Great use of the Orions in the context of the worldbuilding here. To me, it doesn’t make sense that a giant intergalactic empire would be so homogeneous in its makeup, nor would it forbid any offworlders to have a presence on its homeworld. Good to acknowledge this here – I’m guessing that O-town is a pretty strictly regulated place in terms of being one of few places non-Klingons can freely hang out.

I love the architeture of the place - a simple use of nothing but the wall angles of TNG matte/set art makes it perfect already. The place really looks lived-in, with layers to the habitation. Are those angular buildings from the Kahless/Molor era, then, assuming the place was shut down when they sealed off the Molor temple and saw no growth afterwards?

- Whoever the spotted one is, assuming that’s her later, she’s covering up her attractive spotting with tattooage. Or is she? The ink seems to be deployable and possibly retractable at a touch. For those who enjoy hot springs in Japan, this is actually a good thing.

Since we see the deployment, and we see Burnham deploy one of the samples yet said sample apparently remained undeployed for her and other customers, retracting is heavily implied... Also, wouldn't the spotted one savor the moment of deployment more if it were permanent?

- Could they have come up with a better name than “hydro” bomb? For some reason I keep imagining those cherry bombs you put in the toilet.

Well, it was apparently invented by Tilly flying high. She stammers through "some sort of, er, hydro bomb" even though then specifying the ship has such things in stock.

- Qo’noS is correctly shown as having only one moon. We all know what happens to it.

And it has every right to be that close, considering it is that close in ST:ID and apparently holding position just fine despite loss of structural integrity...

Why "only one"? The idea that Praxis would be close to Qo'noS remains noncanon as such (we only get confirmation that one moon is close to the planet and will break up in a parallel timeline); the idea that there would be no others isn't even hinted at.

- When Pippa draws her weapon on Burnham, we hear it charge up / prime / chamber / whatever in a familiar fashion as all energy weapons in this show. However, when Burnham subsequently grabs the pistol and pulls it to her chest, we hear it charge AGAIN.

But the point seems to be that the Emperor didn't want to shoot Burnham at that stage, so it would make sense for her to release her hold of the trigger-thingie until Burnham literally forces her hand.

- Once the Klingon fleet breaks away from Earth, we’re treated to a nice zoom in to Paris. On the way, we DON’T see spacedock, the Moon is in a different place (suggesting that maybe a week has past, but I really don’t think they were putting to much thought into it), and at least three of the “spire” type starbases we’re familiar with by now.

...Apparently they wouldn't be called starbases in this context. Which is in keeping with the many uses of previous base designs.

Did the Moon move? Or did the Klingons just approach from multiple directions, with the previous shot showing a different side of the globe?

- We also VERY quickly zoom past several starships. I’m fairly certain the one that zooms directly overhead is a Crossfield-class ship oriented towards the camera. This COULD be Discovery, or not, as the timeline covered by this shot isn’t clear. Did the Klingons stick around for when Discovery came home?

Considering the heroes are surprised Stamets isn't jumping them to Vulcan later on, it seems likely he did jump them to Earth, meaning "sticking around" wouldn't compute - it probably took L'Rell longer to get to the Council Cavern and speak her piece.

- For those among us who have actually been to Paris and know the area around the Eiffel tower, it seems as though the place gets significantly remodeled over time! The park area is more or less where it is today, but the Seine river is comparatively tiny.

And there are certain landmarks missing from the opposite shore, including a bit of elevation. Not just yer standard urban development, but a deliberate razing of history. By local authorities, or foreign ones...?

I’m sure Paris was one of the many cities that is thoroughly nuked in WWIII and the Eiffel Tower is more than likely a replica

...Perhaps even a mere projection, moved around in the various views we get of the city in TNG and DS9?

Timo Saloniemi
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top