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Discovery starship discussion [SPOILERS]

IMO, it could be that the VFX guys hadn't gotten a proper feel of how to use what asset just yet. Or hey thought that so many of them sucked and didn't want to inflict the Hoover class on anyone else ever again. :P

More likely though, it was simply not mentioned what ship she had in the script, which likewise didn't include an "EXT VFX - Cornwell's cruiser warps away from Discovery". TV production is notoriously skimpy and the writers may have written some scripts with a minimum of extraneous VFX shots to economize them, not knowing that they would have $X to spend on such things or that CBS would be okay spending an extra couple grand on a beautiful shot of Stella's family cruiser peeling away, if it wasn't in the script.

Mark
 
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It's a bit curious how sparsely DSC is using its CGI creations overall. Eaves supposedly did a ton, and we still haven't seen most of them. And other things just flash by... Is there an artistic or a logistical reason for the absence, and does it cover Cornwell's many rides?

He was quoted at, what, twenty ships, total? Or was it forty?

We've seen nine Starfleet starships, plus the shuttle and workbee, twelve Klingon starships plus their fighter, the Charon, the Vulcan transport (and cruiser? I think they were the same), the Baron's ship, and the Starbase. That's 28, by my count.
 
Has it been mentioned that the Official Starship Collection magazine for the Shenzhou lists its length as 432 meters?

It also makes note that the square nacelles were a design directive from Bryan Fuller.
 
Has there ever been any correlation between nacelle size and shape,versus mission type?

Not in show. The TNG Tech Manual's explanation of how warp drive works could be taken to imply that larger (i.e. longer) warp coils allow for a larger warp field, but then larger fields may not necessarily correlate to speed - the field just needs to be big enough to encompass the ship - it's how many subspace layers it can create that enable higher warp factors.

So a small ship with big nacelles might be able to expand the field around other objects, which might be a mission-critical feature for a "warp tug" vessel.
 
Right, so I don't think we can judge Burnham's strength by any Trek standard - except possibly Data...She's not a featherweight, as stated..

How much can *anyone* in Trek be judges, fight-wise, by their species: do vagaries of the individual, and more especially plot, outweigh anything species-related. (Is there actually any canon mention of "strong Vulcans" or etc?).

FWIW, "featherweight" refers to a person weighting between 119-130lbs (depending on code and time period), rather than any judgement on fighting ability. Apparently Sonequa Martin-Green weighs 114lbs, so is a bantom weight!)

It's a bit curious how sparsely DSC is using its CGI creations overall. Eaves supposedly did a ton, and we still haven't seen most of them. And other things just flash by... Is there an artistic or a logistical reason for the absence, and does it cover Cornwell's many rides?

Does anyone know what the cost implications of reusing CGI assets are?

Not in show. The TNG Tech Manual's explanation of how warp drive works could be taken to imply that larger (i.e. longer) warp coils allow for a larger warp field...

So a small ship with big nacelles might be able to expand the field around other objects, which might be a mission-critical feature for a "warp tug" vessel.

I just had a mental vision of a Ptolemy class with a sled of five containers and warp nacelles extending the entire length of the sled; perhaps they expand like telescopes ^_^

dJE
 
Spoilers within...

The war goes by the numbers. And boy are the numbers odd! And not particularly even, either.

I mean, 1/3 of the fleet lost is nicely explained, in chilling enough a fashion: single cloaked Klingon ships sneak into harbors and blow themselves up. Three Starbases are lost that way.

Then another ship repeats the "The Chase" trick and burns off an atmosphere, killing 11,000 people - the first evidence of mass casualties after the Binaries, and as such no doubt worth the extra mention here.

No further discussion of casualties, though, even though the Klingons indeed "occupy" 20% of former UFP space. And then they hit Starbase 1 where they inflict some 80,000 casualties, which Admiral Cornwell finds shocking in itself. Are all the other "occupied" regions devoid of major human(oid) habitation to start with, or do these divided and glory-hungry Klingons just skip the slaughtering part in their hurry to even greater conquests?

And then come the weird numbers. SB1 is "100 AU" from Earth and "1 ly" from the location where Stamets dropped the ship at her return from the MU. But...

- We see SB1 in medium orbit of a Class M world. It may be a moon of some sort, despite the surface showing hints of the US southern coastline, but obviously it's not 100 AU from this celestial body to SB1. It's a tad too brightly lit to really be an object three times as far out as Neptune, too.
- The warp jump across that 1 ly takes ages (Tyler has breakfast at least) and is said to be wrought with peril as Klingons may be lurking in "this quadrant". This is barely acceptable in terms of usual ENT or TOS speeds, but that's not the problem. The problem is Klingons "lurking" there, that close, and it still being a surprise they have captured SB1 and not conquered Earth or bombarded her to cinder.

The rest is rather standard fare, devoid of tech (Sarek is dropped off on Vulcan after a short flight, has holocomms later on, Earth apparently and inexplicably remains unconquered) until we get to the main event: planetary bombardment, Starfleet style.

It feels absolutely natural that a Starfleet ship would have "agricultural carriers" on stock, ready to be moved to the shuttlebay for launch from nice big racks. And it's fun to think that Stamets' spore cylinders are standard agricultural hardware, too, easily slipping into these carriers, which have sublight engines for diving into the atmosphere, heat shields, rotor blades for terminal braking and for double duty as landing gear, and the ability to shoot their seed deep into the ground. Heck, even the numbers deployed more or less match the map, despite the heroes clustering the landings rather than spreading them out evenly.

The spores sure grow up quickly. And apparently only Stamets knows how to make that happen, as everybody initially worries how it earlier took months at least. Straal preferred canned mushrooms, but he, too, must have had a source somewhere; it's not told exactly what happened to that source and why our heroes cannot access it, but given the war, this is not surprising.

The purpose? To infiltrate Qo'noS. Literally. Right into their bedrock, which is said to be full of volcanic cavities ("A Planet of Caves" they call it, wink wink). This is the only safe and fast way to get intel for a massive strike against the planet - supposedly, the thick and weird cloud cover is enough to thwart Starfleet long range scanning attempts and has been for the past 100 years, Archer of the NX-01 having been the last to actually visit the place. Or at least its surface, leaving us some perhaps necessary leeway.

Sounds nice, especially as the mushrooms again help: they serve as geoscanners on their own. One just wonders if Stamets couldn't do it on remote, then...

And then they pile up on the ominous. L'rell convinces Sarek and Cornwell to go dirty on the Klingons, in ways not described. And Cornwell makes Emperor Philippatine the miracuously rediscovered Captain Georgiou, giving her formal command of the ship.

Random stuff:

- Cornwell phasers Lorca's fortune cookie bowl in anger. Aboard her own briefing room!. Or at least a room like the starbase-board one where the Admirals briefed Lorca at the beginning of "Choose Your Pain". Why would she move the bowl over to this room (no matter where it is, her unseen ship, the Discovery, whatnot) for this "spontaneous" act of frustration? Especially as the bowl no doubt belongs to the real Lorca, whom Cornwell still thinks fondly of (but is convinced he's dead in a switcheroo that sent him to the MU where no Starfleet officer can survive alone).

- Cornwell beams over with a team to secure the Bridge, then refers to a retinue that beamed aboard with her (ostensibly with "Captain Georgiou" among them). Then begins a perilous trip to SB1. Why does Cornwell's own ship not escort her? Did she send her away on an errand when still thinking Stamets could jump her straight to Sol? But she seemed to believe in the concentrating of forces for Earth defense, at least back then.

- Starbase 1 is big and pretty, much like the canonically unnumbered one from "Choose Your Pain". And now in Klingon hands, painted with a big House symbol in red. Eighty thousand people aboard? We see some starship wreckage nearby, giving us a scale estimate again, and they sure pack 'em up in that Franz-Josephian-Saucer-Plus-Spire!

- While the Emperor is in command, Tyler, too, is at large, but with a wristband that is supposed to limit him somehow. Just a tagging device? With the doors closing on him merely because they recognize him, and not because this device is an automatic-door-closing-tool in its own right (the distinction might matter later on)? Or does the wristband, say, stun Tyler on demand, too?

Looking forward to the conclusion, which seems to be coming at a steady pace. That's what I like in Trek's first attempt at serializing - it's much less jarring that ENT S3. And perhaps less epic as the result, feeling like a single stretched-out episode.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Yeah, their stated distances for SB1 really bugged me, but that was about all that did. It's not like Trek's been overly consistent with distances before.
 
I dunno, I liked the Xindi arc overall, I just think they didn't go far ENOUGH in serializing it. They REALLY didn't need to play cowboy, I agree.

Quickie observations:

- Interestingly, as expected we didn't see Cornwell's ship, but they DID show us they had time amongst all the repairs to repaint the "U" on the hull. I guess they could have thought they might have been mistaken for the ISS Discovery if anyone really did get close enough? They had already figured that both ships would have been swapped wholesale, which turns out to have been true; but the ISS Disco met her fate swiftly at the hands of the Klingons, saving everyone the embarrassment of having to meet themselves again.

- Are they mentioning the destruction of a good third of the fleet as an excuse to wipe the slate clean of all these designs we've never seen since? Or also a good excuse as to the relative scarcity of Starfleet vessels a decade hence?

- When are we, date-wise, before "The Cage" now? I'm guessing it's been almost two years since "The Vulcan Hello", given the months between TBOTBS and Burnham's arrival on Discovery, some six months of wartime before their trip to the MU, and now nine months hence.

- What if SB1 was not JUST the base (as implied), but the planet beyond as well? Maybe it's not a moon, but a space station? We've seen the insanely huge Starbase Yorktown in some other universe, so perhaps the Prime continuity is able to build really big facilities as well (or retrofit them into some planetesimal)? 80,000 is a LOT of people to have to worry about on any size of space facility, especially without starships to warp you around.

- 1 AU = 499 light seconds. So at warp one, any ship could get from SB1 to Earth in less than 14 hours, and that's being generous with any time required to slow down and maneuver around any celestial object in the way. So... What's keeping the Klingons? Is it really well defended? Not just in the interest of the House of D'Gor? I agree that the writers just didn't grasp how large an AU really is in the scheme of things.

- So the briefing room set we see is a re-use of the one we saw on the un-named starbase a while back, but I think it now has some "rabbit tooth" windows installed. It's otherwise the same set (and why not, it's great).

- Strangely though, the quarters Emperor Georgiou finds herself in are the same quarters seen as the Captain's on the Shenzhou, down to the decorative grilles. Guess they really are modular... They differ mostly from the other bunk set as they are entered into from the coreward side of the room, instead of laterally. But this isn't the same set as Lorca's quarters, right? We didn't really get a good look at it last time, and the mood lighting was set to "seduce" at the time..

- So where DO they keep all the spore-seeding stuff when they're not suddenly in need of it? It took up practically all of the shuttlebay, and that's pretty cavernous as it is!

Mark
 
I think neither the mention of the instant loss of the ISS Discovery, the belief that the "real" Lorca must be dead, nor the referring to major ship losses were meant to reflect the intended future. Rather, they are ways to tie loose ends but not in a granny - Captain Killy might be alive, "our" Gabriel Lorca might be alive, and the fleet may rebound or be diminished for decades, but the current writers won't ever touch those things.

Date-wise, we aren't supposed to be missing months of action before our heroes hit the MU, but suddenly Lorca has been in the RU for "a year, 212 days" despite arriving there some time after the Battle of the Binaries. So we have to choose whether we did miss almost a full year of action, or whether the jump to the MU took us forward by that timespan without any of the heroes realizing this or commenting on it, or whether Lorca meant that "a year" equals "212 days". I'm for the third alternative, meaning I concur with your guesstimate.

I don't really see the Klingons "taking" SB1. They invaded a place guarded by at least three ships (we did see two near-intact wrecks and what looked like the remains of a saucer) and said 80,000 folks - and now they have 274 people there. That doesn't even qualify as a Pyrrhic victory - it's more like an epic Klingon defeat, with the sorry survivors camping out in a base they can never hope to use for a further assault towards Earth. But they can do nice graffiti, which is the very point of their suicide attack.

Meaning Saru's decision to withdraw was a cowardly one. But he's commanding a key asset; any other ship could be vectored in to retake SB1 from that tiny posse in due time. And quite possibly the ship would come from Earth, and may already be underway.

Or then Owosekun was saying there were 274 Klingons on Deck One, 3,427 Klingons on Deck Two, 7,299 Klingons on Deck Three and so forth, and she was just cut off at an inopportune moment...

The Briefing Room is fine as a set, and it's odd we didn't see it used earlier as a Discovery facility (it's one now - Cornwell keeps referring to "this ship" while talking inside that room). And I guess it's possible Lorca had dozens of the bowls around, even though I don't think there was one in his mancave. Seeing them on every table would sure make Cornwell draw her sidearm at some point! The way she picks pieces of the hologram out of the air to redistribute them across the room is pretty, reminds me of the 2009 movie, and expands logically on Lorca's previous tactile manipulation of such holograms.

Oh, the agritransports... I'm sure the vast secondary hull can house just about anything, and does - it's not like the skeleton crew would compete with the gear for that onboard space much. And the minuscule shuttlebay is just the place where all the cargo elevators and cargo transporters deliver these loads for deployment. Indeed, we always see it full of stuff that's not shuttles. (Although I'm still thinking these old ships used to be shuttlecarriers before the useless relics were converted to flying labs due to their vast interiors and other resources, and the mini-bay is all that remains of a formerly continuous interior cavern.)

Timo Saloniemi
 
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So on one hand they used a third of the fleet to defend 3 starbases, but on the other hand only 3 starships to defend Starbase 1 in Earth's backyard. No wonder they're losing the war.
 
So on one hand they used a third of the fleet to defend 3 starbases, but on the other hand only 3 starships to defend Starbase 1 in Earth's backyard. No wonder they're losing the war.

I doubt the ships on those three raided bases were there to defend said bases. As we have seen in DS9, bases need starships for defense like tigers need pajamas. DS9 always defended the Defiant rather than vice versa, say.

But having lots of ships close to the battlefronts and fewer ships close to Earth seems like sound strategy in general. It's just that it's not a working strategy in this particular case where the enemy is invisible and can pounce on "inner" targets unannounced. Then again, no strategy would work against that.

But at the time SB1 gets raided, cloaks have been negated. Which means the place ought to have been more or less safe. And quite possibly was, if only 274 Klingons and zero Klingon ships survived to tell the story of how they painted graffiti on Starfleet's innermost base!

Timo Saloniemi
 
Almost certainly, I'd say. Not as special as when she makes a cameo in this show, I truly hope. ;)

- Oh, another date thing. Tying in with when they are now in the prime timeline, Cornwell says that their mission to Qo'nos will be the first time anyone from Starfleet will have been there since Archer and the NX-01 crew were there "almost a century ago". The writers MAY have been referring to the adventures as seen in "Broken Bow", but this isn't likely as that episode happened in April 2151, and they're now AT LEAST in 2258 ("The Vulcan Hello" starts in May 2256). Either the NX-01 Enterprise went back at some point after "Broken Bow" (and why not, really), or Cornwell forgot to carry a "1" somewhere. :P

- Anyone notice how the crew was dressing down this week? Pretty much everyone at some point had their front zipped down. I guess the director this week wanted to show how much a mess Discovery was in after their MU jaunt, and/or how much a mess the Federation was in after 9+ months. Still, they're on a STARSHIP, and by all indications all the clothing replicators and air conditioning systems were working just fine. Given how little they're off the ship in this opening season, it's almost weird seeing the crew so uncomfortable to look even a little disheveled.

Mark
 
Then again, Archer and his crew went there a couple of times. It's not as if Cornwell is referring to a single event known to the audience, then. For all we know, Archer was the Picard of his day, the one middleman the Klingons accepted for their assorted dealings with Earth or the Coalition, and kept on going to Qo'noS till "These Are the Voyages" and the end of his association with NX-01.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Then again, Archer and his crew went there a couple of times. It's not as if Cornwell is referring to a single event known to the audience, then. For all we know, Archer was the Picard of his day, the one middleman the Klingons accepted for their assorted dealings with Earth or the Coalition, and kept on going to Qo'noS till "These Are the Voyages" and the end of his association with NX-01.

Over in the Lit forum, it was observed that Cornwell's "nearly a century" fits in better with Archer's last visit to the Klingons in the novelverse than it does with his first on the TV show.
 
Cornwell maybe meant about a century to be 100 years plus or minus? She is not in the best of mental shape, especially After learning about MU Lorca.
 
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