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Discovery Size Argument™ thread

I don't understand how Disco ships are vastly bigger but have far less crew. There must be like 12 people on each deck.

Which has probably always been the norm. Remember the time-traveling Dax musing how they "packed these ships" back in the bad old days? Kirk's crowded corridors really were something to write home about, and Dax' "these ships" turns out to have been a reference to the exceptional Constitutions specifically.

It's a ghost ship compared to the Kelvin, similarly upscaled from TOS but with a crew of 800+

Or then not, considering the "eight hundred" figure blurted out by Pike after a few glasses could not possibly fit the actual evacuation scene involving just 20 shuttles of known small size, some of which were launching almost empty. George Kirk probably saved "a hundred" folks, five per shuttle as shown; there's no real telling how many died.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Or then not, considering the "eight hundred" figure blurted out by Pike after a few glasses could not possibly fit the actual evacuation scene involving just 20 shuttles of known small size, some of which were launching almost empty. George Kirk probably saved "a hundred" folks, five per shuttle as shown; there's no real telling how many died.
You know, I went and counted how many shuttles there were. Yep, exactly 20!
PFDDjhj.png


I am impressed
Leonardo-Dicaprio-Cheers.jpg
 
Would the guy who wrote his dissertation on the Kelvin incident get the number of survivors wrong by a factor of eight?

Timo, you're being unusually ethnocentric in assuming all 800 'lives' must be human-sized. ;)
 
Well, this is the guy who is drunk/tired enough to claim that the Federation is an armada. He knows his stuff; doesn't mean a bit of self-induced aphasia wouldn't get in the way of expressing that.

Timo Saloniemi
 
It's not a triple deck. It's a double deck.
So why the 3 equal height coloured squares?
Also, adding an extra deck also throws off the carefully configured arrangement of deck windows, so it too is hardly without its problems
 
Which has probably always been the norm. Remember the time-traveling Dax musing how they "packed these ships" back in the bad old days? Kirk's crowded corridors really were something to write home about, and Dax' "these ships" turns out to have been a reference to the exceptional Constitutions specifically.



Or then not, considering the "eight hundred" figure blurted out by Pike after a few glasses could not possibly fit the actual evacuation scene involving just 20 shuttles of known small size, some of which were launching almost empty. George Kirk probably saved "a hundred" folks, five per shuttle as shown; there's no real telling how many died.

Timo Saloniemi

You know, I went and counted how many shuttles there were. Yep, exactly 20!
PFDDjhj.png


I am impressed
Leonardo-Dicaprio-Cheers.jpg
I'm guessing there were other clusters of shuttles ahead of those. Winona's was Medical Shuttle 47 so there were clearly more than 20. And even if there weren't, could each of those shuttles hold 50 people? They are bigger than any of the TV Trek shuttles.
 
A good deal of Crossfield's space may be set aside for lab space. Hell maybe the design was initially meant to be a clipper style fast-freighter.
I'm betting the Crossfield class are glorified R&D / Experimental Technology Field Testing / Secret Technology Data gathering vessels.

The reason the ship is designed the way it is, is simplicity / speed of construction.

Obviously the Discovery & Glenn's spinning hull should be a pair of one-off variants from the original Crossfield Class designs.

The original Crossfield should have standard Starfleet Saucer sections.

But overall, they are designed to be out in Deep Space to test stuff, and defend the secrets of the experimental technology & research as necessary.

You look at the "Constitution Class" and it looks far more "Advanced" in design compared to a "Crossfield Class".
 
I'm guessing there were other clusters of shuttles ahead of those. Winona's was Medical Shuttle 47 so there were clearly more than 20. And even if there weren't, could each of those shuttles hold 50 people? They are bigger than any of the TV Trek shuttles.

It would be a tad odd for any of the shuttles to be outside that main gaggle. We see a steady stream pour out; we see young Jimmy's shuttle among the last to leave, and that one is supposedly included in the gaggle. But yeah, there might be two gaggles, for whatever reason. Or outriders, or whatnot.

OTOH, where would more than 20 shuttles have been stacked inside the ship? We see the three-tier shelf structure, and the depth of the bay, which doesn't really allow for much more than this. And I really doubt the ship was supposed to have 46 medical shuttles in addition to the one we saw... (Kirk never could spare seven shuttles, either, even when one or several of them carried the number 7. Or a dozen, when one or several of them carried the number 12 in TAS.)

As for shuttle size, these are fairly small craft, no bigger than the ST5:TFF prop. And we can see those 20 are all the same model (even if one is colored red and white). A runabout about thrice the size could carry sixty in "The Homecoming"; a largish lifepod built out of runabout set pieces only held about a dozen in "Emissary". I gather packing 'em ultra tight would be an option, but apparently Starfleet doesn't do that in evacuations, as per "Emissary".

I'm betting the Crossfield class are glorified R&D / Experimental Technology Field Testing / Secret Technology Data gathering vessels.

And possibly recycled former frontline ships at that. The USN found many uses for retired flattops; Starfleet might have built these ships with their extra wide shuttlebay doors and oddly shaped secondary hulls as carriers originally, too (as fandom has long insisted), and then used all that internal volume for other applications much like the USN used all that free deck area.

The reason the ship is designed the way it is, is simplicity / speed of construction.

Or then Starfleet just polishes the shuttlebay floor after having converted half the hangars to mushroom conservatories and otherwise refitted the awkwardly shaped ship to its new use.

Obviously the Discovery & Glenn's spinning hull should be a pair of one-off variants from the original Crossfield Class designs.

Or two out of the three or more that were converted from the original carrier to the modified flying lab, starting with USS Crossfield of that so far unnamed original class. Examples of the original class might still be around, too - but Crossfield would indeed be a brand new (sub)class, without any of the keels actually being new.

The original Crossfield should have standard Starfleet Saucer sections.

Hard to tell. The surprisingly knowledgeable convicts in "Context is for Kings" did not indicate they recognized the exact ship design, but they did not comment on the split saucer being exotic, either. Perhaps the spinners have other uses besides bleeding off <whatever> during spore jumps?

But overall, they are designed to be out in Deep Space to test stuff, and defend the secrets of the experimental technology & research as necessary.

Rather poorly at that - even phasers on double hot (with impulse drive crippled by this mode) didn't seem to do much good against the smallest known Klingon warship type. Then again, the ship seems to have lots and lots of torpedo tubes (none exactly visible) as per the sight of them pouring out towards the Ship of the Dead.

You look at the "Constitution Class" and it looks far more "Advanced" in design compared to a "Crossfield Class".

Well, it does have a higher registry number. :devil:

Timo Saloniemi
 
You act like this if the first time a show ( not just Star Trek) has "Tardis" a room, or area, or ship for plots sake? Remember that the Delta Flyer Doesn't Fit in voyagers shuttle bay? and that the "Engineering Section" in said delta flyer is an impossibility? The designers try there best to make a good looking ship, and try to make it's size. Its a tv show/movie.. They try there best but there will always be flubs and physics bends for plot..
I just don't like it when people arbatralaly "Up scale" stuff.. just because.. its annoying..
 
That's fine for you, but others find it just as annoying when sets that we a lot of on screen blatantly don't fit into their purported exteriors.

I also find the misuse of "there", "they're" and "their" annoying, but I appreciate that that's a far narrower demographic
 
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Discovery size is absolutely understandable, they are running over 100 science projects, spore-forrest, spore torpedos, crazy one man pods (s2 trailer), work-bees etc.....so i think they need that space.

I think the scales are more realistic nowadays... Galileo cringes me everytime i see her... and the upscaling of the big e is also more good than bad for me... it was not necessary but...yeah
 
Crossfield class manned-internal volume isn't too far off from the upscaled 480m/Drexler Constitution class or Walker class. Saucers are all about the same size which would be where crew and systems like transporter and medical would be located meaning the lower crew compliments of equal size across the board is sensible. As for the additional space on the Crossfield class they have enormous cargo/shuttle bays that look to be multi-role in nature being able to hold space whales, large science deployment modules, countless shuttles, and room for additional storage containers (more than likely for science). The ends of the wings on the engineering hull hold not only the impulse decks but also the bulk of piping that would run towards the nacelles so for the most part that would not be habitable space but rather mechanical bulkheads. Finally the fore of the Crossfield engineering deck would be again no different than that of a Constitution holding main engineering, deflector control, and probably also auxiliary control. There also seems to be room left and right of the fore bulkheads by engineering where the two spore drive labs were located also forward of the shuttle bay. Also the nacelles are enormous (got nothing for that other than they may be more advanced, or have to compensate for the spore drive in some manner). Otherwise the sizing is overall seemingly thought out.

Concerning the 150 to 250 crew compliment I'd attribute that to loads of automated systems that don't require as much oversight and the more lavish accommodations that consume more volume meaning less crew overall especially if for the most part junior personnel are in two-person quarters and seniors have single suites essentially. Easy real world example would be the new advanced Zumwalt Destroyers which are about 200m in length and have a crew of ~180. Advanced systems need less people doing stuff and if we gave the crew of the Zumwalt more lavish accommodations compared to the standard naval berthing I could see doubling the internal volume easily. This isn't even considering the additional bulkhead space needed for long duration flights and space travel systems/sensors which I'm sure are drastically larger and more complex than the standard gas turbine systems and storage of ships today. I'm sure a lot of the doubled size is more mechanical (nacelles, additional bulkheads, M/AM reactor, etc) hence not generally occupied space by crew. Hence crew systems/size would also be quite minimal especially considering Star Trek ships essentially have super computers on board (Daystrom Duotronics) that reduce crew interactions by even greater scales than in reality today even looking at how drastically advanced the Zumwalts are in-comparison to what Gene had to work with in the 60's and forward. Hell M5 was designed to operate a full ship on its own (technically) so I don't see how the Duotronic super computer doesn't already take a huge load off of the active crew. Also consider that the active crew size is even less since ships have various duty shifts so you may only have ~50 crew up and about on a 3-shift vessel if your crew is ~150 in size.

Overall the sizing makes sense in my mind considering scale/quantity of equipment, mission duration, crew needs and accommodations (as portrayed by Trek), and high levels of automation aboard ship. Now I know some would say, "but how about Kirk's upped crew size, or the berthings seen in Undiscovered Country". To that I say merely a change in how quarters are established. For TOS sizes crew quarters would just become four-man bunks versus the two-man shared quarters for junior personnel, and even some senior personnel might become two/three-person suites essentially doubling the crew size but maintain the same internal volume with only bunk-arrangement changes. This could be for extended mission types, or just a change in Starfleet regulations concerning crew size and maintenance of the ship. For Undiscovered Country it could be presumed during the refit as early as TMP that junior quarters were rebuilt into berthings to allow for a more efficient use of space, allot for more crew if needed, and hold to more than likely changed Starfleet policies once again concerning crew compliment and maintenance of ship. So thus far I'm content with the scale of ships in DSC.
 
Okay, back to deck height and tubes :)
Here's a quick diagram of a deck near the edge. The bottom deck is 3 meters (10 feet) high, each of the little squares is 1 foot. I put a foot tall spacer between the decks, so the bottom is only 9 feet tall. Each of the "person" squares is 6 foot, and the tube is 1.5 meters tall. The upper deck is a 2.5 meter tall "Engineering" deck. still plenty of space.

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I thought the decks in Engineering were usually 12 feet tall? Certainly that is the case for the TMP Engine Room (and by extension the TNG and VOY sets too)
 
So why the 3 equal height coloured squares?
Also, adding an extra deck also throws off the carefully configured arrangement of deck windows, so it too is hardly without its problems
I never suggested adding another deck either, only that there might be space for a jefferies tube between 10-forward and "9-forward."

I put three colors, representing 3 normal decks, but ten forward has a higher ceiling than a normal room. There's no doubt the room itself fits fine. Is there room for a 3ft tall service corridor? Maybe. We also have never seen the room above ten-forward to be able to say that it even needs to be in between the floors. No other jeffries tubes run between the floors. The jeffries tube might end just above Guinan's bar, and there be a different layout in the room above. It may just be a smaller sitting/observation room that is 20 feet deep, as opposed to 35 feet(or whatever ten-forward is).

The ship was meticulously designed and built at a certain scale, then rebuilt to accommodate the new set from season 2. Making an already huge ship more enormous would throw off the scale of everything else, and make it even more absurd that there are only 1,000 people aboard(especially when the set has already been accounted for).

...but have no fear. I have discovered the Ent-D redesign for the upcoming TNG era series. Sorry, I can't name my sources.

Spoilers ahead. Beware!
SusoL6l.jpg
 
I never suggested adding another deck either, only that there might be space for a jefferies tube between 10-forward and "9-forward."

I put three colors, representing 3 normal decks, but ten forward has a higher ceiling than a normal room. There's no doubt the room itself fits fine. Is there room for a 3ft tall service corridor? Maybe. We also have never seen the room above ten-forward to be able to say that it even needs to be in between the floors. No other jeffries tubes run between the floors. The jeffries tube might end just above Guinan's bar, and there be a different layout in the room above. It may just be a smaller sitting/observation room that is 20 feet deep, as opposed to 35 feet(or whatever ten-forward is).

The ship was meticulously designed and built at a certain scale, then rebuilt to accommodate the new set from season 2. Making an already huge ship more enormous would throw off the scale of everything else, and make it even more absurd that there are only 1,000 people aboard(especially when the set has already been accounted for).

...but have no fear. I have discovered the Ent-D redesign for the upcoming TNG era series. Sorry, I can't name my sources.

Spoilers ahead. Beware!
SusoL6l.jpg
That's just the saucer. Can't wait to see the whole ship!
 
I put three colors, representing 3 normal decks, but ten forward has a higher ceiling than a normal room.
The ceiling lights appear to be around 12 feet off the deck. This is higher than the corridor ceilings (around 8 feet) and Captain Picard's quarters (around 9 feet to the ceiling lights) but comparable to Engineering and even Sickbay. Neither Sickbay nor Ten-Forward seem to have any especial benefit from such high ceilings, so we might suppose that each deck is around 13 or 14 feet high.

The ship was meticulously designed and built at a certain scale, then rebuilt to accommodate the new set from season 2. Making an already huge ship more enormous would throw off the scale of everything else, and make it even more absurd that there are only 1,000 people aboard(especially when the set has already been accounted for).
Looking at how the Ten-Forward set is laid out (in comparison to these shots), it seems clear that the indent above the windows is intended to be where the sensor array is located. However, just where the floor is supposed to go is anybody's guess, as the external structure doesn't seem to permit any space for it. That and the fact that according to the external window rows Ten-Forward appears to be on Deck 12 are not indicative of a "meticulously" designed scale - and once the Guinan's lounge got crammed into a space that was originally intended to be a cosy observation booth, any pretence at a reliable scale was well and truly busted.

...but have no fear. I have discovered the Ent-D redesign for the upcoming TNG era series. Sorry, I can't name my sources.

Spoilers ahead. Beware!
SusoL6l.jpg
I can't deny - that was funny! :biggrin:
 
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