Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by slappy, Jun 21, 2022.
This is the correct response to the thread
One of the interesting things about when I was re-watching TNG in 2019 in the lead-up to PIC was seeing how everything I associate with Berman Trek slowly and gradually crept up over time. It didn't happen all at once. But by the seventh season, everything I didn't like about the Berman Era was there in full-force: the wallpaper music that saps the energy out of everything, the over-reliance on technobabble, the character B-plots that don't really do much, the "everyone knows everyone" feeling, and the forced conflict between the main characters. "See? We can have conflict and arguing too!" which just doesn't work when all the characters are usually so chummy.
I did like the weird, out-there plots they had in seventh season TNG. <<-- Unpopular Opinion
But the issue I had with the weird out-there craziness was that they tried to explain it all away with technobabble. I wish they didn't do that. The crazier something is, the more you're supposed to be able to suspend your disbelief. If you're trying to go out of your way to explain something, or sometimes even over-explain it, then you're telling us we're not supposed to suspend disbelief, which doesn't help anything.
In contrast: I buy into the Spore Drive and the Mycelial Network because they never over-explained everything, didn't get all technobabbly about it, and gave us the space to actually suspend our disbelief. Which is a major point where Berman Trekkers and I disagree. I like being able to completely suspend my disbelief, they don't.
I also think that since technobabble isn't actual hard-science, having it in there is just really half-assing it. Either go full hard-science or trust in our ability to suspend disbelief. No half-measure technobabble that insults everyone's intelligence.
I couldn’t agree more. It’s a heretical view to most, but I genuinely find, for all the immense flaws of the first couple of seasons, they’re somehow more rewatchable to me than the last few. Around the time Ron Jones was fired, TNG lost more than just good scoring; it lost its edge, became content with pairing soap opera stories with lame technobabble B-plots, and had a fetish for reuniting the characters with long lost family: brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, long lost aunt’s second cousin’s half nephews. I think the show maybe became a victim of its own success in a way; it was so popular it didn’t have to push itself and its storytelling. It just kind of ambled amiably along, content that it had already peaked at the end of the third season. Plus, as you said, the technobabble got way out of hand. Sadly, Voyager just replicated a lot of TNG’s later weaknesses.
I do find these days I tend to gravitate toward the first two seasons more so than the rest. Part of it is likely because I haven't seen seasons 1-2 nearly as often as I have seasons 3-7, but also, I find there's a sort of energy to the first two. They were still finding their way, and as a result they were still willing to try anything. It didn't always work out, and there are some clunkers in those two seasons, but they were willing to try different things. There's still a bit of that in the third season, and as a bonus they were starting to figure out what worked, and as a result that season stands out as one of the show's best, but from the fourth season on TNG got itself into a rut it never really broke free from.
The best thing Manny Coto did was stop giving a shit about the Temporal Cold War. It was a terrible plot device. The best parts of ENT were spent on exploring the development of the Federation, and the very worst involved either the dog pissing on a sacred tree or the Temporal Cold War.
Actually, it wasn't so much Manny Coto as UPN that stopped giving a shit about the TCW. Because by the end of the third season UPN had given up on the show entirely, and approved a fourth season ONLY so that they'd have enough episodes to sell the show to syndication after they cancelled it. Once that happened, UPN ceded creative control to Berman/Braga and Coto completely, and didn't try to mess around with what Coto did, because they simply didn't care about ENT anymore and they knew the fourth season was going to be the last.
Because it's a world tragedy and not really fodder for entertainment. I get that real-world scanrios like 9/11 and the cold war can't help but make it into stories, and that can be a positive way to hold a mirror up to the world around us and try to extract some truth from it. But when the bodies on the ground aren't even cold yet, no, I don't think so.
I would love to see Discovery explore what societies are like in the 32nd century. Kinda how DS9 explored Klingons, Ferengi, Bajorans, Cardassians, Trill, The Dominion, etc…But your problem is that the math doesn’t work.
With the short seasons for Discovery, there really isn’t time to cover stuff like that. Especially if they are only doing 10 eps in S5. They little to no time to explore characters beyond Michael, Saru, Book, Stamets and Culber, that explaining Klingons have become a reclusive, closed society or the Ferengi are now Mega-Socalists just doesn’t fit.
Which shows just how unserious UPN were towards their own idea. Since that could have allowed for other Trek characters from TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY to appear at various points of the show with the Suliban Cabal impersonating them. The actor that played Silik touched upon such an idea in an interview back when ENT was airing, but it was never followed up on.
Considering that they were bringing in major names from TNG to boost the ratings by the fourth season, its makes me wander what it would have been like if they had decided to do that much sooner through the TCW.
What a wasted opportunity that idea was.
If its all two-part arcs, there’s enough time. They only spent an episode on the Trill in S3 and that was enough.
There is no reason they can't have something like:
- One two parter dealing with Cardassian, Bajarans, Ferengi, maybe the Tzenkethi
- One two parter set in the Delta Quadrant
- Another two partner with the Talarians or some other TNG era species
- A two parter with the Gorn or Tholians
- Another with them exploring the Gamma Quadrant
And then end the season with a Klingon ship pulling up to Discovery, mirroring Enterprise pulling up to Discovery in S1 finale and prep for the next season long arc. The only issue with that is that they want to resolved their stories within the season in case they don’t get renewed, which prevents cliffhangers from occurring.
would love to see Discovery deal with the Metrons finally making First contact with the Federation. They were the aliens from Arena.
Let's get our facts straight. UPN did not come up with the idea for the Temporal Cold War. Berman and Braga did. All UPN wanted was some more 'futuristic' elements to boost the show because they didn't think the 22nd century setting was enough to interest viewers. So B&B told UPN they were going to create this TCW thing, which appeased them (although it's debatable whether UPN even knew what it was about, much less B&B, who created the idea but gave it very little development, which hurt the show even more because now you had fans with a divested interest in the idea but didn't know that it was never going to be fully realized.)
Also, I'm not sure why the Suliban impersonating characters from TOS, TNG, DS9 or VOY would have made any difference to the ENT characters, as they would not have known or cared who those people were. It would only be fanwank of the worst sort.
The only major name they brought was Spiner, and that was just because he had major influence in the studio. Frakes and Sirtis were in the series finale. So none of those instances were done to boost ratings, especially since UPN already knew that the fourth season was going to be the last.
That's the kind of follow-up I'd like to see. It would be a good way to show how much more enlightened the Federation is or isn't compared to when the Metrons referred to them as, "still half-savage."
I see Humanity (sorry to be species-ist, but it sounds better than "Federationity") as thinking it's more evolved than it really was during TNG, finding out otherwise from DS9, not bothering with the pretense anymore by PIC, and then gradually getting there genuinely (without consciously realizing it) as the Federation became larger and had to incorporate more values and ideas into its body during the centuries leading up to The Burn. Then the Burn set everything back and in trying to get back to where they were, the Federation figures out how to go further. Then they're at a point where the Metrons would contact them again, because the Federation went through an existential crisis, weathered it, and came out from the other end better than before. It endured instead of falling apart when put to the test.
So, it was UPN’s idea, since they approved of it and greenlighted the series shortly thereafter. And rejected the original prequel idea, which they did not think was worth greenlighting.
Maybe because this Temporal Cold War spans millennia and yet it didn’t feel like it did? We only saw the 22nd century, a possible 26th century timeline, an alternate 31st century, and an alternate mid-20th century circa WW2. At no point is any effort made to visit the 23rd century, 24th century or the 29th century. Not even the 16th century during the battle between the Spanish Armada and the English, despite Reed mention he’d like to visit that event. It felt very small scale compared to what it could have been.
Its not about the connection the ENT characters had to characters from TNG/DS9/VOY. It’s the connection that fans had to those characters and seeing those characters are being involved in the TCW for whatever TCW-related events the writers came up with. Bringing in these characters would at least connect ENT to the other series better.
Big names are brought in to bring in higher ratings and higher viewership. Seems like simple enough logic to follow. Otherwise, there’s no reason to do that. And its been well defended that every other live action Star Trek show had larger followings than ENT.
That ENT had its budget reduced, episode number reduced, and the pro-Star Trek people removed from power behind the scenes prior to the production of season 4 impacted what they could do during that season. That includes hiring the bigger names that would bring in higher ratings and higher viewership.
Yep, they'd fit in with the Disco crowd alright
I'm not sure why you feel the need to twist my words around and take them out of context. But no, the TCW was NOT UPN's idea, as I clearly mentioned in my post which you quoted.
So you want to turn ENT into a fanwank fest by introducing characters from other series which have nothing to do with ENT, at the expense of ENT's cast, and have that cast be overshadowed by them? You do realize that that's exactly what TATV was all about, and that it is considered one of the worst episodes of ENT ever produced, and probably one of the worst episodes of Star Trek, period? And on top of that, you don't actually want the characters, you want Suliban copies of them?
You misunderstand, because yet again you are ignoring the facts. By season 4, UPN had completely given up on the show. The ONLY reason why season 4 even exists is because they needed enough episodes produced to sell the show to syndication. They didn't care about ratings anymore. Spiner, Frakes and Sirtis were invited to star in some episodes because Berman and Braga asked them to, not because they thought ratings would be higher because of it.
Wait, what? Everyone involved behind the scenes in Enterprise season 4 were uber-fans of the highest order, they even brought on novel authors to write for that season. That's kind of why the entire season ended up being blatant fanwank.
I'd like for DISCO to remain adventure-based rather than getting into long, drawn-out political machinations. I like the science, the action, the fast on your feet decision-making
You realize that Season 4 is a fanwank and its considered to be the best season of ENT ever produced?
There are also these factors....
Source: Scott Bakula Thinks This Is Why Star Trek: Enterprise Was Doomed (slashfilm.com)
Source:Scott Bakula: Star Trek Enterprise Was ‘Victim of Circumstance’ – TrekMovie.com
Easy to see why they gave up.
I’m referring to this.
Source:Remembering Star Trek Enterprise with Scott Bakula - IGN
You're right. Its pretty much time for the Federation to interact with them.
That's not saying a whole lot.
The Nextiest Generation
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