News Discovery and Trek Continuity

[Tuskin38]

While they're not canon, they are required to stay in continuity with the TV series and movies.

So if a future TV series were to show us what a Tzenkethi looks like and it doesn't match the books, the novels would need to find a way to integrate that into their continuity so it doesn't contradict the show.

Because at the end of the day, it's still tie-in fiction so it needs to represent the show.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

In fact, with the above scenario, the novels might not even bother to integrate it at all and just pretend that the Tzenkethi have *always* looked the way a new show portrays them. That wouldn't be as fun though...the books have come up with some hilarious ways to get things to align.

 

[Tuskin38]

In fact, with the above scenario, the novels might not even bother to integrate it at all and just pretend that the Tzenkethi have *always* looked the way a new show portrays them. That wouldn't be as fun though...the books have come up with some hilarious ways to get things to align.

They did that with the Tholians after Enterprise Season 4. Though the novel versions of the Tholians were not that much different IIRC, they just had tails when the show didn't.

 

[Manchester]

Don’t feel bad. Most people here are wrong about things too.

Understatement of the year.

 

[DSG2k]

Nah, you're just reading in way more than he means by application of an extreme pedantry he clearly doesn't share.

Words have meaning. You can choose to react with hostility and pejoratives if you wish, but as noted such "pedantry" (a.k.a. logical analysis) has demonstrated excellent predictive power in a similar canon debate that was initially light on the quotes. (Indeed, the Lucas 2002 "parallel universe" quote that so beautifully supported my view only dropped after I'd already gotten started… before that was pedantry, and more was required afterward until it became common knowledge.)

Given how the 2008 quote was found after, and supports, my initial post in this very thread, you'll excuse me if I don't choose to turn down the level of logical analysis just because you don't like it (or its results… whichever).

I would predict more pro-novel-canonicity quotes in the future, and even incidents where some novel concept is used in lieu of a canon one in a Kurtzman production, if that hasn't happened already.

He respects and doesn't want to contradict the books but can't avoid it. That's all this is.

With apologies to Aretha, C-A-N-O-N isn't how respect is spelled.

 

[jaime]

No, you didn't, because what you found does not say what you are claiming it does.

The only statements regarding the Canonicity of Star Trek tie-in material that have been made in the current "era" of Trek pertain specifically to the Discovery tie-in novels, which Discovery's writers have collaborated on through Kirsten Beyer and which, like Jeri Taylor's Mosaic and Pathways, both inform and have been informed by what is happening onscreen.

Kirsten Beyer has also written the vast majority of the Voyager relaunch novels. She is now working on a series set at a similar point in universe. It’s possible the three big continuities...books, TV and STO, are going to be brought into the main Continuity. Which is definitely easier than many think (STO has edited it’s continuity before and can do so again, both books and STO work from a similar continuity base at one point, and both work from the TV and films. Most contradictions are in things like alien species rather than anything particularly big... e.g Kira is on a path to be space pope in the books, Kira is space pope in the game.) The comics are harder (and Hive was a pile of toss going out of its way to contradict the other continuities at the time anyway) but ultimately lower tier as they have no ongoing series for anything much apart from the KT anyway.

It could be very interesting. Who almost did it (and sort of does, but it’s Who.) but Trek might be the first franchise to wrestle this bear and win. I would love to see it done.

 

[DSG2k]

Provided this new united continuity is identified as new, I have no problem with that bold vision. However, that would basically be following in the footsteps of the new Disney canon for Star Wars.

 

[Tuskin38]

However, that would basically be following in the footsteps of the new Disney canon for Star Wars.

No it wouldn’t be, as it wouldn’t be throwing out the old stories.

 

[DSG2k]

No it wouldn’t be, as it wouldn’t be throwing out the old stories.

In the long run, they really sorta didn't throw them out. It's all business as usual at Licensing, and a lot of authors go out of their way to reference the old works. Only the post-RotJ stuff really took any direct hits, for obvious reasons, just as we might expect of pre-TOS or Nem+20 eras.

 

[jaime]

In the long run, they really sorta didn't throw them out. It's all business as usual at Licensing, and a lot of authors go out of their way to reference the old works. Only the post-RotJ stuff really took any direct hits, for obvious reasons, just as we might expect of pre-TOS or Nem+20 eras.

They really sorta did, as everything pretty much grew from that post Rotj period, especially after the prequels were done and dusted. No Mara jade for instance, so that’s a bunch of between the movies stuff gone. Rogue One contradicts chunks of stuff too, and Solo. It’s not business as usual at all.

Why would a continuity encompassing all the previous tv and film be a new continuity? That makes no sense.

 

[Refuge]

"We'll try not to be dicks and not shit all over other peoples hard work, but we can't guarantee anything."

Sounds like an opening statement they could use in the Tardigrade videogame lawsuit.

 

[DSG2k]

They really sorta did, as everything pretty much grew from that post Rotj period, especially after the prequels were done and dusted. No Mara jade for instance, so that’s a bunch of between the movies stuff gone. Rogue One contradicts chunks of stuff too, and Solo. It’s not business as usual at all.

Certain characters and events have changed, as I said, but the overall feel hasn't. The EU just loved to paint the Empire as crony capitalism, for instance, utterly ignoring the nationalization references from ANH and TCW. Tons of tech details were ported over from the EU. Even the Last Jedi's disjointed Force powers were derived from EU sources.

The last thing I want to see is the weird 1980s fascination with sci-fi military contractor corporations (that e.g. FASA also got into) in Star Trek.

Why would a continuity encompassing all the previous tv and film be a new continuity? That makes no sense.

Did you see the Tuvix post a page or so ago?

 

[jaime]

Certain characters and events have changed, as I said, but the overall feel hasn't. The EU just loved to paint the Empire as crony capitalism, for instance, utterly ignoring the nationalization references from ANH and TCW. Tons of tech details were ported over from the EU. Even the Last Jedi's disjointed Force powers were derived from EU sources.

The last thing I want to see is the weird 1980s fascination with sci-fi military contractor corporations (that e.g. FASA also got into) in Star Trek.



Did you see the Tuvix post a page or so ago?

Yes, I did. It still makes no sense. Neelix is not based on Tuvok. What you describe is more like merging the two Janeways form the one where they picked up the other Harry Kim. Or, at a pinch, like merging two pick a random crew member with their duplicate from the demon class planet. Not remotely Tuvix.

In terms of Star Wars...nope, it’s all change there. They just dressed like Axis superpowers and were your basic intergalactic empire, with a bit of a military-industrial complex thing going on at the edges. Death Stars. Big Walker things. English actors with English sideburns being dubbed into American. George was a bit of a hippy, the Empire was more corporate green collar America, born out of a Republic and all that jazz. Or jizz. As in the music. The nationalist things comes when the EU people get lazy...did anyone even call the humans humans in Star Wars? Not sure. Anyway. Point is, Disney did a JJ...with JJ...and just ripped off bits here and there, but threw it all in the bin once they nicked their cherries.

 

[DSG2k]

Yes, I did. It still makes no sense.
{…}
In terms of Star Wars...nope, it’s all change there.

Okaaay. Let's start small. The sky is blue and 2+2=4. Are we good so far? ;-)

Neelix is not based on Tuvok.

No, he's not. He's a separate, often-foreign thing placed in the same setting but with a unique history and viewpoints all his own, many of which are self-contradictory and a bit odd.

Sounds like the Star Trek novels and comics to me.

What you describe is more {…} like merging two pick a random crew member with their duplicate from the demon class planet. Not remotely Tuvix.

Walter Sulu and Hikaru Sulu would like a word.

Your examples are all of recently-separated twin versions of known people. That's not the proper paradigm, and indeed seems to confuse the concept of a distinct universe with the real-world production of it. That is to say, I could write a Scotty novel based on all the canon we know of him, and add details like old stories of his past or naming his sister Clara/Mary/Kristen/Whatever. Your mental map seems to then be canon-canon-canon-canon-canon-aweebitof(traditionally)noncanon.

However, that's a completely different Scotty that’s been written. The 'real' Scotty may think like the one written or have had the same sort of childhood experience or thought of it the same way, but he also may not. If I want to know the 'real' Scotty, then, I may as well look to the mirror universe one for all the good the novel version does me.

Similarly, the "Mirror, Mirror" Enterprise is, by default, completely unusable for technical information about the Enterprise we know. The *only* reason we *can* use it is because our Scotty explicitly states that it is basically the same but for some instrumentation differences. Otherwise, besides visibly-identical bits and identified-identical acid spots, the ship could be utterly different.

So, a better paradigm for you, if Tuvix confuses, is Lore or B-4. These androids may look just like Data, but they are programmed differently from the start.

 

[jaime]

Okaaay. Let's start small. The sky is blue and 2+2=4. Are we good so far? ;-)



No, he's not. He's a separate, often-foreign thing placed in the same setting but with a unique history and viewpoints all his own, many of which are self-contradictory and a bit odd.

Sounds like the Star Trek novels and comics to me.



Walter Sulu and Hikaru Sulu would like a word.

Your examples are all of recently-separated twin versions of known people. That's not the proper paradigm, and indeed seems to confuse the concept of a distinct universe with the real-world production of it. That is to say, I could write a Scotty novel based on all the canon we know of him, and add details like old stories of his past or naming his sister Clara/Mary/Kristen/Whatever. Your mental map seems to then be canon-canon-canon-canon-canon-aweebitof(traditionally)noncanon.

However, that's a completely different Scotty that’s been written. The 'real' Scotty may think like the one written or have had the same sort of childhood experience or thought of it the same way, but he also may not. If I want to know the 'real' Scotty, then, I may as well look to the mirror universe one for all the good the novel version does me.

Similarly, the "Mirror, Mirror" Enterprise is, by default, completely unusable for technical information about the Enterprise we know. The *only* reason we *can* use it is because our Scotty explicitly states that it is basically the same but for some instrumentation differences. Otherwise, besides visibly-identical bits and identified-identical acid spots, the ship could be utterly different.

So, a better paradigm for you, if Tuvix confuses, is Lore or B-4. These androids may look just like Data, but they are programmed differently from the start.

Fine Lore and B4. But as we see...B4 is in the process of ‘becoming’ data after being given all his memories etc. Which means your Tuvix thing still doesn’t work.
The lit verse (post relaunch) and STO (for example) both agree on the screen canon. Then they slowly diverge, but not by much. It’s not hard to get them to reconverte (STO in particular has a history of changing things retroactively, so it’s continuity is already free from) The Scotty on screen is the same Scotty that has the experiences in each of these other continuities. Because he is the basic Scott. Spin Off canon is not a totally separate entity to screen canon, especially not that which predates it, because that’s its base. STO just needs a nip and a tuck and it can fit with any canon it likes. The books would need a more intensive workout, but not as much as you would think, depending on which of the two twentyfifth centuries the screen decides is worth keeping to. It’s perfectly doable...and we can ignore the comics, because there is no ongoing continuity there anyway for the time period, just contradictory standalones and franchise crossovers that automatically put themselves out of the running. STO already has DSC stuff coming that is done by the production team. The far and away biggest outlier in the new Ds9 station in the books, which if we never visit, won’t matter on screen. (And can be nipped and tucked by the prophets in about half a novel...there’s time travel stuff already hitting there anyway.)

You may think they are chalk and cheese, but familiarity with both informs me saying no, they are not. They are cheese and another cheese, and both made from milk from the same cows. Moo.

 

[DSG2k]

Fine Lore and B4. But as we see...B4 is in the process of ‘becoming’ data after being given all his memories etc. Which means your Tuvix thing still doesn’t work.

Works perfectly, actually. I'm just glad you've gone from claiming not to understand it to acknowledging that you merely reject it.

The concept of personhood and memory is well-covered in Trek. Ira Graves, the Dax murder trial, Data's resistance to being backed up by Maddox . . . all of these things suggest that, regarding B-4, Data is probably properly thought dead. Data was copying over memories and such, much as he had colonist information given to him and even Lal's memories and programming, but seemed keen on B-4's *self-actualization*, not just making a copy of himself.

Even if the child-like B-4 personality was totally subsumed by Data's data, we have it on good authority that B-4 is not the same person as Data just because he has the memories of Data.

Swinging around to Star Trek's identity, addition of the morass of Trek literature, even given the rosy picture you paint of it, is much more than merely adding memories to a character. Like Tuvix, it is a change to the very DNA and personality, as well.

The Scotty on screen is the same Scotty that has the experiences in each of these other continuities. Because he is the basic Scott.

Your argument's issue is that you assume what you seek to prove. When the books and comics weren't considered canon, it was fundamentally incorrect to claim that it was the same Scotty. The facts of the non-canon cannot reasonably be applied to the canon any more than we can describe Ambassador Worf's dining room based on Regent Worf's Imperial accommodations.

Spin Off canon is not a totally separate entity to screen canon, especially not that which predates it, because that’s its base.

It was never a two-way street. Spin-off works that aren't canon receive knowledge of the canon universe from the canon itself, regurgitating and adding to it, and often misremembering or misunderstanding it. When they have a continuity all their own they inevitably become a separate and self-referential entity, distinct from the canon version.

Canon can elevate non-canon via borrowing (e.g. Lucas and the name Coruscant for the Imperial city-planet, elements of Vulcan from TAS, et cetera), but the non-canon doesn't mean squat otherwise.

It may have all smeared together in one's head-canon, but that's entirely different.

 

[jaime]

Works perfectly, actually. I'm just glad you've gone from claiming not to understand it to acknowledging that you merely reject it.

The concept of personhood and memory is well-covered in Trek. Ira Graves, the Dax murder trial, Data's resistance to being backed up by Maddox . . . all of these things suggest that, regarding B-4, Data is probably properly thought dead. Data was copying over memories and such, much as he had colonist information given to him and even Lal's memories and programming, but seemed keen on B-4's *self-actualization*, not just making a copy of himself.

Even if the child-like B-4 personality was totally subsumed by Data's data, we have it on good authority that B-4 is not the same person as Data just because he has the memories of Data.

Swinging around to Star Trek's identity, addition of the morass of Trek literature, even given the rosy picture you paint of it, is much more than merely adding memories to a character. Like Tuvix, it is a change to the very DNA and personality, as well.



Your argument's issue is that you assume what you seek to prove. When the books and comics weren't considered canon, it was fundamentally incorrect to claim that it was the same Scotty. The facts of the non-canon cannot reasonably be applied to the canon any more than we can describe Ambassador Worf's dining room based on Regent Worf's Imperial accommodations.



It was never a two-way street. Spin-off works that aren't canon receive knowledge of the canon universe from the canon itself, regurgitating and adding to it, and often misremembering or misunderstanding it. When they have a continuity all their own they inevitably become a separate and self-referential entity, distinct from the canon version.

Canon can elevate non-canon via borrowing (e.g. Lucas and the name Coruscant for the Imperial city-planet, elements of Vulcan from TAS, et cetera), but the non-canon doesn't mean squat otherwise.

It may have all smeared together in one's head-canon, but that's entirely different.

Did the enterprise Crash on verídidian III for the enterprise crew as seen in the current novels, as well as for those we saw in nemesis? Picard is returning on screen, is it also the same for that Picard?

If so, then no, the two continuities are not separate, as one grows from the other.

Ergo, putting the screen in continuity, therefore canonising, the books, would not be joining two disparate elements a la any of your examples.
Otherwise, do you argue that the films are a different continuity to the tv shows? As they exist in a different medium, whilst using the same characters and setting, by your argument they must. But all the evidence says otherwise.
If the novels (specifically, the current relaunch ranges) are declared and treated as canon by the writing team, are they not therefore simply continuing those on screen, in the same way those books continue from the screen in the first place?

In which case, it is still not a Tuvix scenario. At best it is something like the two Picards in that first season ep...or better yet...Data’s Head in Times Arrow part two.

Fixing at least one of the other continuities is as easy as pie...STO sorts itself out all the time, and likely will do so for the new Picard series. It appears on a screen, features the same actors in the same roles...and now has TV production staff providing the plot. Does this not render it in continuity? Given it’s only two steps removed from the books in the first place (very much so when it began) and can retcon itself, it which way is sorting out at least two disparate continuities, and folding them back into screen continuity in any way an impossible thing? In a fictional universe where Q and Time Travel and Prophets exist?

I still don’t see your logic to support your evaluation of the disparate elements.

 

[DSG2k]

Your issue is with the very concept of different continuities, and is therefore an extremely basic one.

Any time you have spin-off non-canon it’s going to at least basically try follow the canon from which it spun. That's the whole point. However, if it is spin-off fiction, its facts are meaningless to the canon. It has facts before the canon events, facts after, facts within… those simply don't exist in the canon.

It's logically equal to a parallel universe, over and above all the retcons and course corrections that have to happen to stay within sensor range of the canon if it's an active one. This is especially true in the case of a spin-off non-canon continuity. Then you *really* have a parallel universe, because you now have a self-referential offshoot entity with a life and history and continuity all its own that would never be reflected in the canon. It is no longer directly slaved to the canon.

What doesn't make sense is viewing non-canon any other way.

 

[jaime]

Your issue is with the very concept of different continuities, and is therefore an extremely basic one.

Any time you have spin-off non-canon it’s going to at least basically try follow the canon from which it spun. That's the whole point. However, if it is spin-off fiction, its facts are meaningless to the canon. It has facts before the canon events, facts after, facts within… those simply don't exist in the canon.

It's logically equal to a parallel universe, over and above all the retcons and course corrections that have to happen to stay within sensor range of the canon if it's an active one. This is especially true in the case of a spin-off non-canon continuity. Then you *really* have a parallel universe, because you now have a self-referential offshoot entity with a life and history and continuity all its own that would never be reflected in the canon. It is no longer directly slaved to the canon.

What doesn't make sense is viewing non-canon any other way.

But your whole argument is that if it was worked into the canon, neither canon would hold, which is untrue. And there are extant ‘spin offs’ that have been worked into their various franchises. Including Trek on occasion, sometimes subtly, sometimes not.

 

[DSG2k]

But your whole argument is that if it was worked into the canon, neither canon would hold, which is untrue.

Whose argument is that?