Disco Season 3, "Genesis II", and "Andromeda"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Lord Garth, Aug 4, 2019.

  1. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm going to rewatch Andromeda. Or at least some of it. I didn't watch either that or Earth: The Final Conflict after the first season.

    Why would I? The Commonwealth is basically the Federation. The Andromeda disappeared 300 years into the future. And, in the interim, while Andromeda was missing, the Commonwealth fell. This is all based on ideas Gene Roddenberry had, going back to the '70s, with Genesis II, which was made in 1973 and I watched in 2000 right around the time Andromeda premiered.

    It's entirely possible that Alex Kurtzman and Michelle Paradise want to flesh out the thumbnail sketch of the idea that Gene Roddenberry had back then.

    So it would be interesting to look at what was done before in a Post-Apocalyptic/Post-Commonwealth setting. If indeed the Federation ends up being firmly entrenched in the "Long Ago Time" that Craft referred to in "Calypso".
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  2. King Bob!

    King Bob! History’s Greatest Monster Premium Member

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    Interesting idea, though I'm leery of the current TPTB being able to pull it off.
     
  3. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

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    I really enjoyed Andromeda, even the final season.
    But there is a trend I've seen that I like things the loudest fans dislike.
     
  4. SiddFinch1

    SiddFinch1 Captain Captain

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    An Andromeda like series could be interesting if we'll done. Andromeda started well but became a mess.

    I think may go for a totalitarian type of Federation instead of totally fallen chaos. Maybe its like Firefly with discovery aiding some type of rebel/freedom fighters and trying to get.the Federation to rediscover its principles.
     
  5. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I haven't watched this in almost 19 years. It definitely looks like it was made around the Turn of the Millennium. Tyr and Becky still look cool. But Harper's look really dates the show. He looks like half the guys I knew back then. :p

    But that's all trivial. Actual content, as I watch the first episode: "Under the Night".

    Zora will be dead-on like Rommy. I’m sure of it.

    Harper seems to be an aficionado of older ships. He calls Andromeda the Pride & Joy. I wonder if in DSC S3, there will be someone who's familiar with Federation Starships of the 23rd Century?

    The Nietzscheans are part of the Commonwealth but they open fire and engage in open warfare against them. Which means the beginning of the first episode, "Under the Night", sees a Civil War that leads to the fall of the Commonwealth.

    Andromeda racing towards the Black Hole to get away from the Nietzscheans is kind of like Discovery racing towards the future Burnham will lead them to while the Enterprise provides cover for them, fighting off Control. And Rhade is like Leland, who has to be stopped.

    The Nietzscheans have a similar mindset to the Terrans. I could see Tyr and Rhade being disciples of Sun Tzu, just like Georgiou. The question in DSC S3 becomes: will Georgiou be more like Tyr or Rhade? I think neither, but there's always a chance her interests won't be the rest of Discovery's.

    In "Calypso", Craft is from Alcor IV and they're at war with the V'Draysh. The Federation might have also been part of a Civil War, similar to the one where the Nietzcheans tried to overthrow the Commonwealth.

    The Magog sound pretty savage. They eat sentient life. They reproduce by rape. A Nietzschean world was destroyed by them. And The Neitzscheans want destroy the Commonwealth because the Commonwealth made peace with the Magog. "You compromised with monsters!," Rhade tells Dylan Hunt.

    One way you can tell this was made in 2000 is that the slo-mo choreography of the fight scene between Rhade and Hunt is like what you'd see in The Matrix. The fight between Hunt and Rhade ends in a shoot-out where Hunt narrowly wins. Then Andromeda goes through the Black Hole...

    ... and into The Future.

    Here's a key difference between Andromeda and Discovery: On the other side, Becky, and whoever that Pimp-Looking Alien she's travelling with is (who I'll refer to from now on as Space Pimp), are waiting for the Andromeda Ascendant to emerge from the Blackhole. It seems like the Andromeda was as prestigious as the Enterprise in Star Trek. Whereas the existence of Discovery has been completely suppressed.

    The crew of Becky's ship are: Becky, Harper, Trance, and Rev Bem. They're the people Dylan Hunt immediately runs into. Though, in DSC S3, Burnham will be separated from Discovery for a time, I think it's possible that Book will join the crew. Also I think there might be some other people from the 32nd Century who join Discovery.

    Bem is a character who seems to be a reformed Magog, who's done some horrible things in his past. I actually think Georgiou might be like a cross between Tyr and Bem. I can't see her giving up her bad-ass-ness, but maybe something happens that makes her change her ways. Or being on Discovery and away from the Mirror Universe too long rubs off on her. There's zero chance, however, that I think she'd go down the Holy Path.

    After Hunt and Rommy find out what happened, that the Commonwealth lost to the Neitzcheans, Rommy and Hunt talk about it. Rommy reminds Hunt that the Commonwealth hadn't fought a war, "a real war", in over 1,000 years. And the Neitzcheans caught them completely by surprise. If the Federation had also been at peace for hundreds of years, it could also be off its game in the future. Making it easy to fall. Hunt says the Commonwealth had over 1,000,000 worlds in it, spanning three galaxies. Something the Federation could easily grow into. So travel might be intergalactic instead of just interstellar. Something that wouldn't be a problem for Discovery's Spore Drive.

    At the end of the episode Dylan Hunt says the Commonwealth might have fallen but it still exists on his ship and he won't have anyone trying to salvage it or taking it over. Saru and the crew of the Discovery will probably feel similarly. And without Saru’s fear, I think he would definitely act on those defensive instincts.

    Dylan Hunt wants everyone off the ship. Becky doesn't like threats and neither does Space Pimp, so they unleash Tyr who says, "I'll take it from here." So a fight for control of the ship looks afoot as the episode ends.

    EDIT: The next episode, "An Affirming Flame", is more Andromeda-specific and doesn't seem as compatible with what Discovery might be. One thing that stood out, though, Becky and her crew realizing that they were on the wrong side and they turn on Space Pimp. It's entirely possible that whoever Discovery runs into in its new setting might also initially be at odds with Discovery, until both sides have a change of heart and realize who the true enemy is. Whoever that is. If there is.

    At the end of "An Affirming Flame", Dylan Hunt makes it his mission to rebuild the Commonwealth. Something Discovery might try to do. Or they might try or want to seek to restore the V'Draysh back to what the Federation was before, or create a Federation from the remnants of the people fighting against the V'Draysh.

    As far as '90s/'00s syndicated sci-fi goes, I think Andromeda got off to a solid start in the beginning. I don't know enough to say about afterwards. I'm interested enough again to keep watching. But everything I typed above, I think, is it in terms of how I think Discovery might have any similarities.

    The next thing I'll look at, in another post, is Genesis II.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
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  6. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    I had a similar thought back when it became clear the season was going to end with Disco going into (presumably) the Calypso future. Where the Federation are now bad guys, Disco arrives and tries to restore the Federation to its noble virtues and Gene's Vision. Toss in Zora as the ship's AI and you basically have Andromeda right there.

    I gave up on Andromeda half-way through the first season on a combination of it just being Trek-Lite and not being particularly good. And I'm told it got worse in the subsequent seasons.
     
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  7. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    IDK - if it is a totalitarian style Federation, Discovery would be toast in short order (using ancient tech over a millennium old, and again if totalitarian, a large military with a tight grip) and an overwatch in place -- but who knows.
     
  8. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    I suspect we might see a technologically regressed Federation in the 32nd century, if for no other reason then to explain why Disco is going to be stuck in the future instead of being sent back in time with time travel technology we know is so commonplace high school kids can build their own temporal communicators a hundred years earlier. Indeed, Cleveland Book's clothes don't look as futuristic as the still-suit Mr. Daniels wore.
     
  9. Cyrus

    Cyrus Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It was a combination of GR's ideas and Robert Hewitt Wolfe's "Fall of the Federation" Star Trek series idea (which he pitched when he was on DS9 staff but was rejected).
     
  10. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Fleet Captain

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    If its a Totalitarian Federation, then the series might end up having more in common with Blakes Seven, which itself had more then a few nods to TOS, including shapechanging invaders from the Andromeda Galaxy.
     
  11. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Fleet Captain

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    Book's clothes look like something that Roj Blake would have worn.
     
  12. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Back to the '70s, 1973 to be exact, and on to Genesis II. Write off the bat you know this was written by Gene Roddenberry. In the near-future of 1979, Dylan Hunt -- along with his porn-stache -- is about to go into cryogenic freeze. Someone tells him, "It's your last chance, Dylan. I can still have a girl here waiting to revive you." To which Dylan says, "I don't think NASA's ready for that method yet. I wish they were." Roddenberry Approved.

    "Our goal was suspended animation to make astronauts able to travel longer distances in our solar system," Dylan says. He was the chief of the project to develop suspended animation into something viable, so he volunteered himself as the subject. He cryogenically froze himself on February 14th, 1979. Just about six months shy of when I was born, no less.

    Then we go into a flashback. Apparently by the end of the 1970s, we'll be able to travel underground across continents. I can't wait to see it. "It seems mankind's ingenuity is capable of anything." Dylan arrives in China for a meeting with a military officer. The Officer says, "At least the war scare did some good. They finally recognized that surface and air transport's gotten too vulnerable." Dylan says, "Let's hope that with the Chinese Alliance working so well, you people will soon be out of a job." Is this to imply something's been done about the Soviets? Nevermind Garth, just keep moving along. The Officer says, "I can't say I'd mind. Looks like Humanity's finally growing up." Another Roddenberry-ism right there.

    NASA, who Dylan works for, is working in conjunction with Continental Defense Command (CDC). This type of combination effectively makes for a 20th Century version of Starfleet. And an alliance with China looks like the first step toward a United Earth, which would make for the forerunner of a United Federation of Planets, except it would be more like a United Federation of Nations (my term). Anyway, CDC allowed NASA to work on their experiments deep underground. NASA previously conducted cryogenic experiments on test animals before testing it on Dylan Hunt.

    He says they figured out the way a being is revived is through "a strong relationship between the will to survive and the need to reproduce." More of that Roddenberry Writing at work, working its magic. "After the inevitable jokes of astronauts in male and female teams," (If people think '60s Star Trek was sexist, '70s Star Trek probably would've been even worse due to relaxed censorship), "Injections of brain stimulants were found to work as well." "By every measure we knew of, the experiment should've gone perfectly. What we did not know was that a fault, a flaw, existed in the rock strata over our heads, and that the slightest ground tremor would be enough to dislodge it."

    And of course, as Dylan Hunt is frozen, that's exactly when something happens. The commonality between this and Andromeda is that everyone thinks there's peace and then that's when they find out the opposite and are taken by surprise.

    EDIT: Continuing on after the Opening Credits.

    Previously, Dylan Hunt had said that the experiments they ran on test animals showed that they'd age at a rate of one day per 10 years. Dylan went from being clean-shaven (except for a mustache) to having a full beard. So do the math. And just like in Andromeda, it looks there are people who find Dylan Hunt. They've worked their way underground.

    Dylan begins to awaken and wants to know who the people who found him are. One of them, a character played by Percy Rodriguez (who was Commodore Stone in the TOS episode "Court Martial"), Primus Kimbridge, tells him, "A rock fall buried this whole section of the caverns. We gave up looking for you a long time ago." A woman tells Dylan, "It is the year 2133."

    What the Hell?!!?!!!! Dylan, still groggy, puts his hand on the woman's shoulder, Lyra-a, and he says to her, "Make me want to live." Come on, Gene. I'll let this speak for itself... This is awful. Then they cut to Dylan in a bed. Lyra-a comes up to him and says, "Good morning, are you feeling better?" She pats his chest, and then he goes into it again. "How long?" She says, "Eight days. You ask the same question each day." Dylan clearly has a hard time remembering things. But now we finally get some expository dialogue about the situation in 2133.

    "What is this place?," Dylan asks. Lyra-a says, "They call themselves PAX, [Latin for] peace, to fool others. Actually, they're descendants of the soldiers who made war from here." She tells Dylan she pretended to join PAX so she could warn others of who PAX might attack. Lyra-a didn't have initially have medicine Dylan needed eight days ago, but she looked through his library and was able to figure out how to make an equivalent.

    So now we're finally getting to a point where some of this might be translatable into Discovery Season 3. The technology of the previous time was lost. So the V'Draysh might be less advanced than the Federation and they might have to rediscover the technology Discovery has.

    Lyra-a: "This has effects much like the medicines you called for. Going through your old medical books, I discovered how to make their equivalent from mutated plants my people use. So they put you in my care."
    Dylan: "Mutated? The bomb?"
    Dylan: "Were we was a war?"
    Lyra-a: "That was a long time ago. It's only history now."
    Dylan: "What happened?"
    Lyra-a: "There was some new forms of life. But you'll have in them nothing to fear. Unless you fear me. I'm a mutant. We Tyranians have two hearts. Greater strength. We're superior to Humans in almost every way."

    So, if DSC S3 goes by this, there might not be Humans but a race that descended from Humans, much like the Tyranians.

    What looks like the PAX Council has a debate about Dylan after he's been there for 15 days. It seems one of them doesn't trust Lyra-a because she's a Tyranian, even though she joined PAX. Lyra-a, it turns out, is only Half-Tyranian. Her mother was Human. Kimbridge thinks Dylan would be an asset. A man of the past and a scientist. With his knowledge PAX could learn things it would otherwise take them centuries to discover again.

    I'm only at the 17:30-mark, and I have to say that Genesis II is a lot more dense than Andromeda. I've already has as much to talk about here, if not more, than in the entire first two hours of Andromeda combined. This might be a combination of Gene Roddenberry's talents as an Idea Man and the differences in writing between the '70s and '00s. Genesis II is much more story-driven with only as much character as the plot needs. Whereas Andromeda took a cue from Berman-Era Star Trek (still going on at the time) and was more about the characters with the plot not being so thickly packed.

    Certain members of the PAX Council recommend that Dylan be separated from Lyra-a as soon as possible because Tyranians are deceitful. At this point, I have to ask: if they truly believe that, then why are they even allowing Lyra-a to stick around? Then, just like that someone comes in and warns the Council, "The man from the past is no longer in his quarters! He's with Lyra-a!"

    Lyra-a shows Dylan around. She shows him salvaged military communications equipment. And then he sees works by the likes of Von Gogh and Rembrandt on display. Apparently PAX looted different locations for all of these. Lyra-a informs him, "They've looted the whole world. No one is safe from them." Dylan quips, "Well at least they sure have taste in what they steal."

    It should be noted that Lyra-a tells Dylan that PAX doesn't understand the principle of nuclear technology. If the V'Draysh are anything like PAX, they might not understand all the principles of Federation technology either.

    Eventually Lyra-a and Dylan reach the surface and are no longer underground. Dylan looks around. He sees sunlight, vegetation, and a river, but none of the airports or highways or man-made constructions that he remembers.

    Dylan: "How much did the bombs destroy?"
    Lyra-a: "Less than it was believed would happen. For many years, the fighters on each side feared the death bombs of the other too much. When they were finally used, the scientists revolted."
    Dylan: "Then at least we did show some guts. Hmm?"
    Lyra-a: "But the ancestors of PAX then took power. Many scientists were killed as traitors. Your teachers and technicians tried to save them and a great frenzy of killing again. Without scientists and teachers, your machines began to rust. Men began to fight for water and food. Your great technology had been too -- "
    Dylan: "Too complex. Too fragile. Without oil, the wheels stop, without wheels, the factories stop, without factories, food transport stops."
    Lyra-a: "Earth isn't finished, Dylan. It's only different. In some ways, perhaps even better."

    And then what's when Kimbridge appears, telling Dylan he'd hoped to welcome him to their time differently. With Kimbridge is his security chief who tells Dylan that his knowledge could be useful but it also could be knowledge that could destroy them all. Kimbridge tells Dylan he hopes he'll use his knowledge to assist PAX once he understands them fully. Dylan cryptically tells them, "I think you'll find I'm a quick study."

    And that's where I'll leave it for now. Genesis II is a treasure trove of insight, looking at the path traveled before which Discovery might take up.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
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  13. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Would need far bigger sleeves.
     
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  14. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don’t want the Federation to fall. Not now, not ever.

    It basically makes all of existing Trek worthless. If the Federation is destined to fall, what’s the point of anything? Even the Pike series we all want to see, would be all for nothing. :(

    That said, DSC will have a hell of a lot of explaining to do if it wants us to believe that a Daniels-level Federation could ever be destroyed...I mean, how could a Federation that has absolutely mastered time travel, ever be wiped out? :wtf:
     
  15. 1.21 Gigawatts

    1.21 Gigawatts Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What is the role of Daniels? Is it to ensure that the Federation absolutely cannot fall for a million years, despite it possibly making detrimental choices, or is his role more simply to police time travel? Either one comes with more questions, of course, but if a society gradually makes its own choices over the centuries that lead it away from what it was, then it has to be allowed to go its own way. But we'll see what scenario they actually have in-mind.
     
  16. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I really don't understand this line of thinking, because nothing lasts forever and just because something is gone doesn't negate the good it did. If the Federation kept relative peace for 500 years, where billions lived and died safe and happy, that's a good and worthwhile thing.
    Daniels managed to erase it himself in "Shockwave", remember?:guffaw:
     
  17. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    War with the Daleks?
     
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  18. Midquest

    Midquest Commander Red Shirt

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    I'm sympathetic to this as I was of this mind a few months ago. But now...I kind of want the Federation to fall.

    For one, it's realistic. No civilization is eternal. The Federation is hardly perfect, and every era of Trek has revealed cracks in its perfect utopia.

    But it's also, to my mind, more optimistic. The idea that a beautiful utopia, once achieved, is simply eternal feels to me magical and untrue. The idea of a utopia that can fall and then recover and rebuild speaks to a persevering spirit that I quite like. That feels like optimism for the time we're in--the idea not that things will go on being lovely and happy but that bad times can be bettered, and that they must be through hard work and careful action. Utopia doesn't make itself. And it's a kind of reality that Trek hasn't really dealt with on the scale of a whole galactic civilization.

    And it wouldn't be all for nothing. Without the Federation lasting as long as it does, how it does, billions of lives would be worse off--or lost--and arguably those who carry forward and rebuild wouldn't have the chance to do so.

    Still, I'm sympathetic to your view, certainly. :) And I think it might be more likely to be that we find a Federation that has lost its way than one that's simply gone.
     
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  19. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If they do the dark Federation angle, I hope the Disco writers have read Barbara Hambly's Crossroad. It deals with a 26th century Federation which, after devastating plague, is so dark as to intentionally breed a mentally retarded worker class.

    Oh yeah, and it featured a creature called a Yagghorth which allowed them instantaneous travel anywhere in the galaxy.... maybe the've already read it:lol:
     
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  20. arch101

    arch101 Commodore Commodore

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    I still believe that a "fall of the Federation" is too obvious. I think it will still exist, but in a different form and maybe only in certain regions. Like the way the Eastern Roman Empire continued on long after the Western Empire fell. Discovery could land, at first, in an area where the Federation of that time doesn't govern and will have to make their way to a Fed region. I think that would be interesting storytelling.
    I'd also like to see some vestige of the 24th century survive to tie it all together. Like Asimov's R. Daneel Olivaw, the android who lived over 20,000 years and ties the Robot series to the Foundation books. A recuurring Data would be perfect in this role. They don't even have to get Spiner- Olivaw modified his appearance somewhat over the eons, so might Data. Or, perhaps, the EMH.
     
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