• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Didn't B5 plagiarized Star Trek before DS9?

It is pretty pointless to go off subject to point that out when anyone has been on a message board for more than 5 minutes realises the code is broken and the quotes are of the people above the quote box, champ.

Congratulations, thread derailed.
 
He also played the same character in Enterprise. I see it more a case of an actor being type cast.

The B5 and DS9 finales have one major thing in common, that the main protagonists join the ranks of energy beings. Thing is those are both the natural conclusion for the character.

Ronny Cox played very similar characters across a wide variety of series too. Captain Jelico, Senator Kinsey, and a whole slew of obnoxious adminstrators across a wide range of genres. That's what character actors do.


Not to mention Dick Jones in Robocop a corrupt corporate executive. But you are right certain actors seemed to get cast in a particualr type of role.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TypeCasting
 
Since this is a B5 thread I am going to mention something odd that happened to me. I bought the DVD set for "Space: Above and beyond" as soon as it became available many years ago. When I started up the first disc there was an image of the B5 station right there in the middle of the main menu. And no, I don't think it was any kind of bootleg, I bought it from Best Buy.

So yeah, that happened.
 
The derailing of this thread was a group effort. Dick_Valentine, no one likes a bossyboots, so cool it. Keep the discussion on track, keeds.
 
There is basically three places to set a Sci-Fi show, on a Planet, on a Starship or on a Space Station, Star Trek had already down the starship twice so it was perhaps only natural they would want to try something different.

Now as for similarites Hollywood often turns out films with broadly similar plots

...


Why can't the same hold true for TV shows?

I would suggest that it does. Most of the 'coincidences' involved in studios releasing alarmingly similar flicks at the same time is a result of attempts to cash in on other people's ideas. Whilst I've only ever done work at the bottom end of the movie business I have sat in meetings and seen this sort of thing commissioned based precisely on that strategy.

It's not just a space station setting though is it. It's also the decision to suddenly do an extended narrative over multiple seasons with soap opera style character development. This was totally unlike what Star Trek had done before (or would do again thankfully). It's also the fact that the major storyline turns out to be a major war with a mysterious unknown enemy. That's a lot of coincidences to happen at the same time.

I've seen much worse rip offs but its hard to avoid the conclusion that the basic concept was being lifted. In the details the shows are very different, but in basic concept its a bit too convenient to be written off as coincidence.
 
It's not just a space station setting though is it. It's also the decision to suddenly do an extended narrative over multiple seasons with soap opera style character development. This was totally unlike what Star Trek had done before (or would do again thankfully). It's also the fact that the major storyline turns out to be a major war with a mysterious unknown enemy. That's a lot of coincidences to happen at the same time.

Except that, no, they are not the same. From the beginning Michael Piller sold the show as something where the consequences of previous episodes would feed into future episodes. This trend was easily visible by mid-second season, with multiple episodes involving Bajoran religion and politics and Bajoran-Cardassian relations.

Furthermore, B5 and DS9 differed very much in the application of continuity. B5 was largely pre-written, including stories that allowed for contingencies like actors quitting and early cancellation. Rather than being the deterministic unfolding of the story created by one man, the elements of continuity were more or less written on the fly by a team of writers, who were themselves discouraged by the studio and by Rick Berman. Consequentially, more episodic elements were woven together, sometimes haphazardly, rather than being a singular arc. There may have been some "keeping up with the Joneses," but the elements that were expanded upon were still there.

If anything made the two series really similar, it was that both were trying to do the same thing: to show that Sci-Fi TV could reach the heights and complexity of Star Wars without watering down the Science Fiction elements. Both were trying to achieve an epic scale in order to establish better positioning for their franchises.However, they also wanted to fill in the details that Star Wars never did (or that the fans did in lieu of George Lucas).
 
So, i know about all that talk off how DS9 plagiarized Babylon 5, but, taking a look back, even though the storylines are different, B5 did got a lot "Star Trek" stile in the begging. Some episodes you can actually pretend you're watching a TNG episode, but centered on a space station.

Any toughs? :)

OBS: I am NOT trying to star a STAR WAR HERE! Let's talk like civilized vulcans shall we? :bolian:

Since I don't like B5 all that much I am inclined to agree with you.
 
There is basically three places to set a Sci-Fi show, on a Planet, on a Starship or on a Space Station, Star Trek had already down the starship twice so it was perhaps only natural they would want to try something different.

Now as for similarites Hollywood often turns out films with broadly similar plots

...


Why can't the same hold true for TV shows?

I would suggest that it does. Most of the 'coincidences' involved in studios releasing alarmingly similar flicks at the same time is a result of attempts to cash in on other people's ideas. Whilst I've only ever done work at the bottom end of the movie business I have sat in meetings and seen this sort of thing commissioned based precisely on that strategy.

It's not just a space station setting though is it. It's also the decision to suddenly do an extended narrative over multiple seasons with soap opera style character development. This was totally unlike what Star Trek had done before (or would do again thankfully). It's also the fact that the major storyline turns out to be a major war with a mysterious unknown enemy. That's a lot of coincidences to happen at the same time.

I've seen much worse rip offs but its hard to avoid the conclusion that the basic concept was being lifted. In the details the shows are very different, but in basic concept its a bit too convenient to be written off as coincidence.

Except they did do the whole narrative again, S3 of ENT was a season long arc, S4 of DSN was a series of multiple mini-arcs. With the underlying arc of creating the Federation.


Most fans would say the more serialised story telling of S3-4 ENT were better than the episodic nature of S1-2 of ENT. With many saying S4 of ENT was it's best season as it finally embraced it's premises, which some say that VOY never really did. Sure ENT and VOY had there moments when they shone stroy and character wise. But people like different things. Some like more episodic storytelling others prefer a deeper narrtive. I would say that DSN added to Star Trek Universe as it explored the various alien cultures more, rather than give us a new alien of the week.
 
Honestly, Enterprise could have been episodic and been a great show, if the writing weren't generally horrid before Manny Coto came on.

I gave up on ENT originally early season 3. Then I gave it another chance two years ago, starting from where I left off. I got to Similitude and Chosen Realm and thought, wow, these are easily to two best ENT episodes so far. Then I looked up the writing credit and noticed they were both by the same person.

In the entire first two seasons they didn't have any moments half as emotional as Sim accepting his fate or as clever as Archer choosing the transporter as his execution method.

Enterprise got good writing at the same time it became more serialized, but those two things are not causally related. If Manny Coto was the executive producer from season 1 it would be remembered as the show that saved Trek, episodic or not.
 
In the entire first two seasons they didn't have any moments half as emotional as Sim accepting his fate or as clever as Archer choosing the transporter as his execution method.

I don't know that it is entirely fair to hold Enterprise's first seasons to such heights. Shuttlepod One is probably the second best Season 1 episode in the Berman era. I also think Minefield and Future Tense are strong episodes. The problem I find is not that there aren't strong episodes, but that there are many really bad episode ... really, really bad. It seems that everyone find their ***WORST TREK EPISODE EVER*** in those two seasons.
 
It's unfair to hold Enterprise's first seasons to the heights of its third and fourth season?

Shuttlepod One was a by the numbers 'Trapped in a small space' episode. My only memory of it is Reed thinking saying 'Stinky' to T'Pol is somehow erotic.

I suppose there weren't any individual episodes quite as bad as the absolute worst episodes of other series because they didn't take any risks. More, a whole lot of forgettable episodes where they just kind of do tropes without adding any kind of personality to them. Dear Doctor is probably on the list of worst episodes ever. Even putting aside the ridiculousness of dooming a species to death on moral grounds, they missed an opportunity to have the prime directive be learned by a mistake instead of pulled out of thin air. In Stargate, the Tollan learned not to share technology to less developed worlds because they did and it led to their destruction. It should have worked the same way in Star Trek, they shared technology with some race and they used it to destroy themselves, and because of that they come up with the prime directive. Nope, they come up with the prime directive out of thin air, and it's the warped Homeward Pen Pals version of the prime directive instead of the non interference principle that actually makes sense.
 
Star Trek was dying and nothing Manny Coto could have done even from the beginning could save Star Trek. Once Enterprise got moved to Friday night and the tone nd acost of the show changed it was pretty much the end for the show. Paramount ordered an end to the Temporal War and it was a pretty poor storyline from Coto that ended it.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top