Didn´t Kirk reprogram Kobayashi Maru cenario?

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

Franklin said:
So, Kirk's commendation for original thinking reads:
"For the creative use of sex and manipulation of another person above and beyond the call of duty in fulfillment of your mission."

Don't think so.

Of course not.

It read "For having mad skillz and hacking a computer program in order to cheat on a test of character." :thumbsup:

That's obviously a more appropriate and likely reason to give someone a commendation.

 

[Arlo]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

OphaClyde said:

Arlo said:
I thought the KM was meant as a test of character, not one that is win or losable, per se.

Also, where is this business about him taking it 3 times come from? I don't recall a line saying that.

Spock to Kirk at the beginning of TWOK: "As I recall, you took the test 3 times yourself. Your final solution was, shall we say... unique."

Duh. Brain fart this morning, thanks.

 

[Timo]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

I thought the KM was meant as a test of character, not one that is win or losable, per se.

One might not exclude the other. McCoy says Kirk "defeated" the scenario in the end, while Spock explains further that Kirk "made it possible to save the ship" on his third try. So apparently Kirk was treated to a simulation very similar to what Saavik faced, and twice passed it without saving the ship in distress, but the third time did save that ship, defeating the scenario.

Doesn't mean he turned a no-win situation into a win-situation. Might just be that on the third try, he saved the Dixie Queen from destruction, but at the cost of his own life. Which might well be unique among those tested, and grounds for commendation.

Whatever the specifics, our characters deliberately gloss over them in TWoK. Whether the makers of STXI manage to fill the deliberate holes creatively enough remains to be seen. But they certainly have enough freedom to do that, in terms of what has been established, if they try hard enough.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ralph]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

I guess the instructors looking at Kirk in astonishment, when he won KM scenario.

 

[ancient]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

Akira Class said:
Well, what did you expect? This film is a reboot of of the franchise, which establishes its own continuity based loosely upon what we have seen before.

I'm glad your imagination is keeping you up to date on news of the movie.

Hear me again. This is a reboot. Trek II does not apply.

Oh we hear you alright. We just aren't impressed.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

ralph said:

In "Court Martial," it's established that there were three people on the ship with the computer skills to reprogram the log to show the ion pod being ejected prior to Kirk calling a Red Alert.

Those three were:

1) Captain Kirk
2) Lieutenant Commander Spock
3) Lieutenant Commander Ben Finney

So... it's official that Kirk knows plenty about computers.

(Even if his greatest computer skill is talking them to death!)

Kirk as starship captain must know about engines, weapons, navigation, but doesn´t need to be expert in computer program.

Irrelevant. Kirk is an expert with computers, according to "Court Martial." Unless you want to throw that episode (and all its dialog and characters) out, you have to accept that the above statement is "canon."

It's irrelevant whether you, personally, think he SHOULD be or SHOULDN'T be an expert on this.

Oh, and why would you assume he's likely going to be more of an expert at propulsion systems than at control systems? He's the captain... there's no indication he took anything more than the "base level" engineering courses (he always had Scotty to deal with that... much as he had Spock to deal with the science/computer issues and McCoy to deal with the life-sciences issues). Why would you assume he'd be an expert in one area and not in another.

The ONLY indications we have about this character's knowledgability is what's been seen on-screen. And it's been stated on screen, very overtly, that Kirk is a high-level computer expert.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

ralph said:
I guess the instructors looking at Kirk in astonishment, when he won KM scenario.

If the test was designed as was suggested in TWOK, there would only be two sensible reactions, and in essence they're only one:

1) "The test is screwed up."
2) "Someone tampered with the test."

"Ohmigod, he found the solution we didn't allow for and beat the scenario" would not be one of the responses.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

ancient said:

Akira Class said:
Well, what did you expect? This film is a reboot of of the franchise, which establishes its own continuity based loosely upon what we have seen before.

I'm glad your imagination is keeping you up to date on news of the movie.

Hear me again. This is a reboot. Trek II does not apply.

Oh we hear you alright. We just aren't impressed.

Ancient... didn't you ever see the signs at the zoo about not throwing raw meat to the animals?

All the "Trek must be flushed and recreated ala nuBSG because that'll be AWESOME DOOODZ!" people are having strokes right now, ya know!

It's an ongoing theme... everyone who REALLY REALLY REALLY wants to toss out TOS (mainly people who grew up with the later stuff and seem to resent the original) have concluded that this is a total reboot and that nothing in the "Trek that I DON'T like" is going to be kept. Effectively that they'll have killed TOS trek for good and replaced it with a "new and improved" version that is more suitable to THEIR perspective (ie, "Kirk always follows orders without question, and never even considers "stretching" things, because that's what a good little stormtrooper... er, I mean a starship commander... SHOULD ALWAYS DO")

 

[Dale]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

I don't think Kirk actually reprograms the Kobayashi Maru simulation. I think he simply bulies the computer verbally until it feels bad about itself and changes the program for him.

Now that's got canonical precedent.

 

[Vektor]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

Starship Polaris said:

ralph said:
I guess the instructors looking at Kirk in astonishment, when he won KM scenario.

If the test was designed as was suggested in TWOK, there would only be two sensible reactions, and in essence they're only one:

1) "The test is screwed up."
2) "Someone tampered with the test."

"Ohmigod, he found the solution we didn't allow for and beat the scenario" would not be one of the responses.

If you think that through a bit further, it leads to some interesting conclusions. Once Kirk realized the test was rigged to guarantee defeat, he would have known that there was no way he could get away with beating it. The instructors would know that either the simulator malfunctioned or somebody tampered with it. Sure, he could have been skillful enough to disguise his tampering as a malfunction, but that would only have invalidated the test and his “victory” along with it. The only way Kirk gets anything out of it is to cheat with the deliberate intention of getting caught in order to make a point, that point being that he doesn’t believe in the no-win scenario. If the rules say he is supposed to lose then by God he will change the rules, even if he has to lay his entire career on the line to do it.

It will be interesting to see just how surprised Kirk is at getting “caught” and how much of this has been considered by Orci and Kurtzman et al.

 

[Timo]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

The ONLY indications we have about this character's knowledgability is what's been seen on-screen. And it's been stated on screen, very overtly, that Kirk is a high-level computer expert.

No, it hasn't. In fact, so far Kirk has never solved a computer-related problem in his onscreen life.

If Kirk actually knew something about computers, wouldn't he be the first to attack the computer's testimony from a technical point of view in "Court Martial"? Or do something about the suddenly overtly feminine computer in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" when his personnel apparently couldn't? Or, you know, behave at least somewhat differently in the episode with the name "The Ultimate Computer"?

What we know is that Kirk enjoys exceptional computer access. Which, I think, would help with cheating in the no-win scenario, too. Except I don't think Kirk would gain that sort of access until he became captain of his own starship. (But perhaps even being captain to a simulated starship has its perks?)

Of course, just because we have never been told that Kirk would know his way around computers (other than being able to bore them to death) doesn't mean he wouldn't secretly possess the skill. We never knew Spock could mind meld or nerve pinch until he did, either. And Spock did those things with some reluctance; Kirk might have painful memories about his cracker days and similarly keep a lid on that aspect of his life.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Franklin]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

Vektor said:

Starship Polaris said:

ralph said:
I guess the instructors looking at Kirk in astonishment, when he won KM scenario.

If the test was designed as was suggested in TWOK, there would only be two sensible reactions, and in essence they're only one:

1) "The test is screwed up."
2) "Someone tampered with the test."

"Ohmigod, he found the solution we didn't allow for and beat the scenario" would not be one of the responses.

If you think that through a bit further, it leads to some interesting conclusions. Once Kirk realized the test was rigged to guarantee defeat, he would have known that there was no way he could get away with beating it. The instructors would know that either the simulator malfunctioned or somebody tampered with it. Sure, he could have been skillful enough to disguise his tampering as a malfunction, but that would only have invalidated the test and his “victory” along with it. The only way Kirk gets anything out of it is to cheat with the deliberate intention of getting caught in order to make a point, that point being that he doesn’t believe in the no-win scenario. If the rules say he is supposed to lose then by God he will change the rules, even if he has to lay his entire career on the line to do it.

It will be interesting to see just how surprised Kirk is at getting “caught” and how much of this has been considered by Orci and Kurtzman et al.

Excellent point. E X C E L L E N T.

 

[Opus]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

Cary L. Brown said:

ralph said:

In "Court Martial," it's established that there were three people on the ship with the computer skills to reprogram the log to show the ion pod being ejected prior to Kirk calling a Red Alert.

Those three were:

1) Captain Kirk
2) Lieutenant Commander Spock
3) Lieutenant Commander Ben Finney

So... it's official that Kirk knows plenty about computers.

(Even if his greatest computer skill is talking them to death!)

Kirk as starship captain must know about engines, weapons, navigation, but doesn´t need to be expert in computer program.

Irrelevant. Kirk is an expert with computers, according to "Court Martial." Unless you want to throw that episode (and all its dialog and characters) out, you have to accept that the above statement is "canon."

Fine. You have our permission to pout and grouse because the writers and the people here who willing to give the movie's new production team a CHANCE and don't give a flying CRAP about some off-hand line from a TOS episode that, BTW, does NOT have ANYTHING to do with breaching the security codes and passwords of Starfleet Academy's most guarded command simulation secret.

SHEESH!

 

[ralph]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

One doubt.

Spock said to Kirk in STWOK: "I never took the Kobayashi Maru simulation, until now".

Why had Spock never taken the Kobayashi Maru test?

 

[Arlo]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

^ I think the consensus is that he wasn't on the command track at SA, and simply rose through the ranks in the field.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

Yeah, that's what I assumed too.

Or, if Spock is two years or so ahead of Kirk it's possible that the test was a new part of the training that he just missed. A lot easier to imagine Kirk futzing with something that was in beta-testing, or the Academy admins taking it less seriously than if Kirk had violated some long-standing Academy tradition.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

Timo said:

The ONLY indications we have about this character's knowledgability is what's been seen on-screen. And it's been stated on screen, very overtly, that Kirk is a high-level computer expert.

No, it hasn't.

Yes it has. I've told you the episode and even the LINE where it was said. You can go watch the episode for yourself. So, either (i) you're confused and befuddled, or (ii) you're being dishonest. I'm going to assume it's the first option...

It IS in the episode. So, your comment "No, it hasn't" is ABSOLUTELY AND TOTALLY UNTRUE, and is easily provable as such by anyone with a DVD player or VCR and a set of recorded shows. Which, I'd hazard a guess, is most of the people here.

In fact, so far Kirk has never solved a computer-related problem in his onscreen life.

Again, IRRELEVANT. We are told in "Court Martial" that Kirk is one of three officers on the Enterprise whose computer skills would be sufficient to reprogram the log.

You can quibble all you want... but it comes down to this:

1) You can decide to ignore what was STATED... IN THE SCRIPT... and what was STATED IN ON-SCREEN DIALOG in the TOS episode "Court Martial"

OR...

2) You can ACCEPT what was stated in the script and spoken on-screen in the TOS episode "Court Martial."

If you're going to decide to take Option #1... to ignore the on-screen statement... then you need to support that with some form of evidence that would cause you to conclude that it's untrue.

It's true, we never saw Kirk programming computers on-screen. We also never saw him doing many, many other things, but the absence of on-screen POSITIVE PROOF is not sufficient to assume that it never happened.

We also never saw Kirk cut his toenails, but it's a safe bet that he did.

Look, there are plenty of contradictory bits in TOS as well as ALL Star Trek. And when two things are contradictory, it's fair to pick and choose which bits you think are "more correct." But in this case, there's NO argument against Kirk being a computer whiz, and there are TWO arguments ("Court Martial" and "The Wrath of Khan") which SUPPORT Kirk being a computer whiz.

Can you provide any further support for this argument? If so, please do. Evidence that Kirk was confused by a computer problem, or was unable to do something and required help, or that someone said something to that effect, or that Kirk said something to that effect... ANYTHING that could be taken as supporting evidence.

Just saying "we never saw it" is NOT, in any way, supportive of your point, however.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

Timo said:
No, it hasn't. In fact, so far Kirk has never solved a computer-related problem in his onscreen life.

You're absolutely right. Notably, on those occasions when Kirk confronts and defeats computers he never does so on the basis of any specialized knowledge - he generally has to have the simplest basis of the machine's functioning explained to him by someone like Spock.

Which is, of course, the audience having the situation described to them by Spock. It's then Kirk's function to solve the problem in a way that makes dramatic, intuitive sense to the audience based on what they've seen and what Spock (or Daystrom, or whoever) has explained.

There's no reason to think that Kirk's particularly hip to the working of computers except in the most general sense, and he never does demonstrate any such mastery. That's what matters.

 

[Arlo]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

^ reminds me of Voyage Home. Spock is the one who really knows what's going on with the Tootsie Roll probe, the whales and what not, but he had to feed it all to the Shat so KIRK would come off as the one who figured it all out.

Kirk is the swaggering commander, that's why we love him so, but I really don't see him having specialized comp-sci or engineering skills. I just don't see the guy sitting there debugging 5,000 lines of C++.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Hasn´t Kirk reprogrammed Kobayashi Maru cenario?

Arlo said:
^ reminds me of Voyage Home. Spock is the one who really knows what's going on with the Tootsie Roll probe, the whales and what not, but he had to feed it all to the Shat so KIRK would come off as the one who figured it all out.

Kirk is the swaggering commander, that's why we love him so, but I really don't see him having specialized comp-sci or engineering skills. I just don't see the guy sitting there debugging 5,000 lines of C++.

Yeah, the guy has a computer system that's calling him "dear" and the only thing he can think of to do with it is to threaten it.

I don't think Kirk directly rearranges the insides of the Kobyashi Maru unless the user interface includes a vagina.