Did Voyager's premise inherently hold it back?
- Thread starter RyuRoots
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If? Oh, you will be! But you're pretty good at it, so feel free.
Hahaha, careful, now that you've popped up, they'll know you're lurking and notice you too.
And thankyou for the compliment, you're pretty good at 'debating' with Anwar yourself
Now I'm going to go hide again before they notice me....
Wither's is just teething.
The rancour gushing around here can be pretty sickening before you become properly acclimatized.
Here's the bit of the premis I LOVED... Voyager was stranded in the boondocks. backward space hillbillies who didn't have replicators, transporters or weapons which could make a dent against Voyager, a lightly armed speedy little frigate. It should have been like Ash in Evil Dead III "THIS IS MY BOOMSTICK and even one of you PRIMATES LOOKS AT ME I'll..." the only thing any ship (Remember when the original 70's Galactica was threatened by the military power of Terra? Adama said some thing like "Yes, and maybe if you had another 200 ships like the one you arrived in, we might consider you a threat.") was manpower and disposable fleets (there was a scene in Blake's Seven were the Liberator a massively powerful ship wrighted by unknown builders was ambushed by 40 Federation pursuit Ships in a very cunning trap, but they just kicked in the over drive and ran like the devil herself was behind them to safety.) and perhaps savage cunning?
But they soon found themselves encountering species with same to superior tech over and over again, that Voyager just seemed like a lightly armed little speedy frigate that had no right not having it's ass handed to herself for daring to think it play at the big girls table.
The rancour gushing around here can be pretty sickening before you become properly acclimatized.
Here's the bit of the premis I LOVED... Voyager was stranded in the boondocks. backward space hillbillies who didn't have replicators, transporters or weapons which could make a dent against Voyager, a lightly armed speedy little frigate. It should have been like Ash in Evil Dead III "THIS IS MY BOOMSTICK and even one of you PRIMATES LOOKS AT ME I'll..." the only thing any ship (Remember when the original 70's Galactica was threatened by the military power of Terra? Adama said some thing like "Yes, and maybe if you had another 200 ships like the one you arrived in, we might consider you a threat.") was manpower and disposable fleets (there was a scene in Blake's Seven were the Liberator a massively powerful ship wrighted by unknown builders was ambushed by 40 Federation pursuit Ships in a very cunning trap, but they just kicked in the over drive and ran like the devil herself was behind them to safety.) and perhaps savage cunning?
But they soon found themselves encountering species with same to superior tech over and over again, that Voyager just seemed like a lightly armed little speedy frigate that had no right not having it's ass handed to herself for daring to think it play at the big girls table.
Hahaha, careful, now that you've popped up, they'll know you're lurking and notice you too.
Oh man, here I was happily lurking on this thread, having said my peace, and thinking that was the end of it. But then you went and quoted me.
Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in!
Wait... what?
I admit, I haven't seen Caretaker in a while, but I don't remember the whole "getting home at all costs" thing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if they wanted to get home at all costs, then they could have just used the Caretaker's array and not blown it up to protect the Ocampa. Seems like that kinda undercuts the argument that they stated their goals was to get home at all costs.
I went and looked up Janeway's speech at the end of Caretaker on YouTube. I don't get the "getting home at all costs" vibe either. To wit:
"And as the only Starfleet vessel assigned to the Delta Quadrant, we'll continue to follow our directive: to seek out new worlds and explore space. But our primary goal is clear. Even at maximum speeds, it would take 75 years to reach the Federation. But I'm not willing to settle for that. There's another entity like the Caretaker out there somewhere who has the ability to get us there much faster. We'll be looking for her. And we'll be looking for wormholes, spacial rifts, or new technologies to help us. Somewhere along this journey we'll find a way back."
So the very first thing she says is that they're going to continue to be like other Federation vessels, seeking out new worlds and exploring space. Not "we're getting home at all costs."
"But I'm not willing to settle for that. There's another entity like the Caretaker out there somewhere who has the ability to get us there much faster. We'll be looking for her. And we'll be looking for wormholes, spacial rifts, or new technologies to help us. Somewhere along this journey we'll find a way back."
Sounds clear to me that the end result of exploring would be to find an easy way home. This supports my "Get home at any cost" argument, and how it straitjacketed him.
Now, if they had no way of getting home and didn't know where the Federation was relative to their location then the premise would've been better because then it would be "A Federation ship lost an unaware of a way home must find new existence in the Delta Quadrant". THAT kind of premise would allow for better fleshing out of local recurring aliens and stuff.
Sounds clear to me that the end result of exploring would be to find an easy way home. This supports my "Get home at any cost" argument, and how it straitjacketed him.
Now, if they had no way of getting home and didn't know where the Federation was relative to their location then the premise would've been better because then it would be "A Federation ship lost an unaware of a way home must find new existence in the Delta Quadrant". THAT kind of premise would allow for better fleshing out of local recurring aliens and stuff.
I still don't see it. "Get home at any cost" is pretty extreme, and I see no evidence of that. As I said, if Janeway wanted to get home at any cost, why did she destroy the Caretaker's array? She knew full well that would strand them in the Delta Quadrant and she chose to destroy it anyway to protect the Ocampa. Someone willing to get home "at any cost" would have said to hell with the Ocampa, and used the array to get home.
Let me see if I understand this. You're saying that what they said in the show -- namely, that the Caretaker array was a viable option to return home and, hence, they agonized over the decision to destroy it -- is incorrect and that we are supposed to believe that the exact opposite is true and just wasn't "explained well"?
How about this dialogue:
There was never even the slightest inference that the array was not considered a viable option. In fact, the exact opposite is stated. Multiple crew members refer to it as a way to get home, including Torres and Tuvok. And Janeway makes it clear she's destroying it to protect the Ocampa, and that not destroying it would be convenient for Voyager.
Not to mention the fact that if Janeway's mission was to get home "at all costs," then it would be worth a few crew member lives flying through the array again to get there.
You are stretching really hard to prove that the premise is what you say it is. I see no evidence anywhere that supports your position.
How about this dialogue:
There was never even the slightest inference that the array was not considered a viable option. In fact, the exact opposite is stated. Multiple crew members refer to it as a way to get home, including Torres and Tuvok. And Janeway makes it clear she's destroying it to protect the Ocampa, and that not destroying it would be convenient for Voyager.
Not to mention the fact that if Janeway's mission was to get home "at all costs," then it would be worth a few crew member lives flying through the array again to get there.
You are stretching really hard to prove that the premise is what you say it is. I see no evidence anywhere that supports your position.
I admit it was bad writing at that part of the premiere, there should've been some people pointing out that using the Array would've killed people. I suppose it was to force some conflict for people to resent Janeway for blowing up the Array, but thankfully they just had them accept it and move on.
Not destroying the Array would've been more convenient since it had advanced tech they could study and use to defend themselves (like the Caretaker did against prior Kazon attacks) and given them the closest thing to a main base.
"At all costs", I doubt the rest of the crew would agree with that.
And even if they HAD created a Delta Federation, then all they'd get would be critiques over how they made Voyager too important that it's all because of them this new group got together. Just like how if they made the 8472/Borg war into an Arc they'd just complain that VOY had too much of an impact on it for one lone ship.
Not destroying the Array would've been more convenient since it had advanced tech they could study and use to defend themselves (like the Caretaker did against prior Kazon attacks) and given them the closest thing to a main base.
"At all costs", I doubt the rest of the crew would agree with that.
And even if they HAD created a Delta Federation, then all they'd get would be critiques over how they made Voyager too important that it's all because of them this new group got together. Just like how if they made the 8472/Borg war into an Arc they'd just complain that VOY had too much of an impact on it for one lone ship.
"it's one crew, a starfleet crew."
A Romulan, Cardassian or Klingon wouldn't have "ran" after they stole Kes from her legally minded owners (Actually, Romulans and Klingons would respect the rights of a slave owner since it's also part of their culture) and then they would have ruminated over the entire forty seconds it would have taken to force a photonic strafing run on the "earth"bound kazon fleet (Which kim was an idiot not to notice. he didn't see the city or the attack fleet. He sucked.) and oblitorate those locked ships which eventually were launched and followed Janeway all guns blazing... Hell, if Janeway really thought the Kazon were a threat, she would have ordered the ground forces which had held her at gun point transported into space, or transported air bubbles or ice straight into their brains.
When the Caretaker was all panzy ass about protecting the Ocampa, that should have given enough leverage to get everythnig she needed, all she had to do was kill a few Ocampa and threaten the rest of the stock umtil the Caretaker sent them home.
Hells, even the most benign act of abandoning KAZON space and leaving the sheep like ocampa to be raped and eaten by their kazon overmasters was beyond the moral gymnastry of her gut, even though that's exactly what she did only that Janeway didn't leave them Caretaker's toys to play with while they waited for te forcefield protecting the oceans of Ocampa to dissipate even though they would have had replicator technology if they kept the array and have no need of water, as well as that they would have been able to "dig" or just turned off the cities force wall with a button push.
Starfleet officers follow rules of ethical conduct.
In no way imaginable did Kathy at her most monsterish could follow the principle "at any cost". Well, maybe at her most monsterish, but not on her first day lost in space. (yes I am aware that the events of caretaker took way longer than a single day.)
A Romulan, Cardassian or Klingon wouldn't have "ran" after they stole Kes from her legally minded owners (Actually, Romulans and Klingons would respect the rights of a slave owner since it's also part of their culture) and then they would have ruminated over the entire forty seconds it would have taken to force a photonic strafing run on the "earth"bound kazon fleet (Which kim was an idiot not to notice. he didn't see the city or the attack fleet. He sucked.) and oblitorate those locked ships which eventually were launched and followed Janeway all guns blazing... Hell, if Janeway really thought the Kazon were a threat, she would have ordered the ground forces which had held her at gun point transported into space, or transported air bubbles or ice straight into their brains.
When the Caretaker was all panzy ass about protecting the Ocampa, that should have given enough leverage to get everythnig she needed, all she had to do was kill a few Ocampa and threaten the rest of the stock umtil the Caretaker sent them home.
Hells, even the most benign act of abandoning KAZON space and leaving the sheep like ocampa to be raped and eaten by their kazon overmasters was beyond the moral gymnastry of her gut, even though that's exactly what she did only that Janeway didn't leave them Caretaker's toys to play with while they waited for te forcefield protecting the oceans of Ocampa to dissipate even though they would have had replicator technology if they kept the array and have no need of water, as well as that they would have been able to "dig" or just turned off the cities force wall with a button push.
Starfleet officers follow rules of ethical conduct.
In no way imaginable did Kathy at her most monsterish could follow the principle "at any cost". Well, maybe at her most monsterish, but not on her first day lost in space. (yes I am aware that the events of caretaker took way longer than a single day.)
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Wouldn't the Kazon simply lose interest in the short-lived Ocampa and dedicate their time and resources to hunting VOY after "Caretaker"? I can't imagine any reason to keep the Ocampa as slaves if they die after 9 years, and the main reason they were enslaving them seemed to be a way of getting to the Caretaker. Once he was dead and the Array gone it wouldn't be economical to stay there when a ship with tech that could solve all their problems was speeding away from the Ocampa world.
There's a mine. A refinery. And a shop. The planet is valuable. The Ocampa are vermin like rats or kanagroos.
Okay guys... I think we all need to stop, and apologise to Anwar, clearly we missed the part where he was actually a Voyager writer and was privy to the goings-on of the writing staff while the show was being made...
Good point. If someone who had no prior Trek watching experience, and/or didn't watch it at the time it aired, yet has the same grieveances with the show as some of us who DID watch TNG, DS9, and then VOY, as they aired... then that kills the idea that any percieved bad writing is just "hatedom burnout."
By the way, the "hatedom" is a myth.
It seems you're wiser than I.
These are some of the best comments that have been said by ANYONE on this subject, right here. Bravo Withers and Arix.
THIS. Is probably the best comment about Voyager EVER.
THIS was the problem, THIS is what they could have done better. MADE IT REAL. And don't even think of telling me "its Science Fiction, of course its not real".
If the writers had sat down, and wondered "What would it be like to BE in this position?" - and actually come up with some answers, then we most likely wouldn't be here discussing what it could have done better.
If they'd actually stuck to the idea and said - okay, we're stuck here, in unfamiliar territory, with limited supplies and limited energy - and stayed CONSISTANT, then I personally think Voyager would have been a better show. Not just a good, or even sometimes, great show (because, contrary to Anwar's belief, I can criticise a show while still liking it) - but a fantastic show.
Excellent points here, Tom. "At any cost" means to HELL with the concequences, we're getting HOME. In addition to what's already been said, Janeway's comments established a secondary objective: exploration for the sake of exploration. This was also borne out by the number of times they stopped to check something out that wouldn't help them get home at all. If you are getting home "at any cost," then you do not HAVE a secondary objective. Period.
And one last thing: this was in a much earlier post (that I apparently missed at the time), and I saw this as part of a quote in a post by Arix:
Whoa whoa whoa… hold on a second. Discarded?? You’re saying now that they saw that the premise was too constricting, then they threw that part of it away?
Putting aside (yet again) that this idea that the premise is some binding, non-negotiable contract signed in blood that cannot be wavered from on promise of death; this notion that the presence of the words “no support” or “without support” (you still haven’t shown where EXACTLY those words were even written, by the way) actually meant NO SUPPORT EVER THEY CANNOT HAVE ANY ALLIES IT IS FORBIDDEN; putting aside that that idea is false since base concepts for fiction (that’s what a premise IS, a concept) simply do not work that way… Shoving ALL that aside!
They discarded it? You think they discarded it? Ok… so in other words, you are saying they did exactly what I said they should do in the “A Voyager Confession” thread: get around the (supposed) limitations of the premise. OUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT was based on this premise (haha, see what I did there): You were saying the show’s premise (or at least that small part of the premise) was SO BINDING AND CONSTRICTING that it was a straightjacket, that it prevented them from telling better stories, from having better villains. Your entire argument against me in that other thread was that they couldn’t discard it, when I was arguing that they could (and really, did). Now you just casually say they DID discard it? If that is what you believe they did – if they tossed the straitjacket off the cliff when they saw how tight it was – then WHAT, exactly, besides simple bad writing, caused the Kazon to be idiots? What prevented them from creating more complex storylines? What prevented them from showing the Borg as the immense power they had previously been established to be? Your whole shtick was that the premise was a straitjacket that held them back from doing these things. So… if they discarded it (not much of a straitjacket if they can just toss it so easily), if the soul-crushingly constricting presence of “no support” in the premise (which wasn’t REALLY there to begin with, but hey) wasn’t what stopped them from doing a better job with these elements… then what was?
That the premise was a straitjacket that prevented the writers from telling better stories for seven years was the keystone of your entire argument with me in that other thread. Now you have advocated the opposite viewpoint, you have said they did EXACTLY what I said they should do, and that you said they COULDN'T do.
Good lord man! Pick a story and stick to it!
The hatedom made sure that VOY had a bad reputation and that anyone new watching it would have their views colored beforehand so they'd be biased against it before viewing.
That "Made it real" stuff is nonsense: They DID think about it, and realized "Wait, we can't have them go around and make allies which means they'll never have the resources or infrastructure to fix big damage done to the ship. So we'll just have to have major damages repaired on their own between episodes and just leave it at that. And we have to have major damage done otherwise they'll just complain the ship never gets damaged."
"At any cost" also included searching around for anyway to do so: that includes investigating for wormholes and stuff. So the exploration was part of the "at any cost" bit.
I'm saying that as time went on (many seasons), they tried their best to discard the premise. Unfortunately by the time it got loose enough, the show was already too set it how it was done for any changes to really have any difference and the audience had nothing but negativity to anything they did.
That "Made it real" stuff is nonsense: They DID think about it, and realized "Wait, we can't have them go around and make allies which means they'll never have the resources or infrastructure to fix big damage done to the ship. So we'll just have to have major damages repaired on their own between episodes and just leave it at that. And we have to have major damage done otherwise they'll just complain the ship never gets damaged."
"At any cost" also included searching around for anyway to do so: that includes investigating for wormholes and stuff. So the exploration was part of the "at any cost" bit.
I'm saying that as time went on (many seasons), they tried their best to discard the premise. Unfortunately by the time it got loose enough, the show was already too set it how it was done for any changes to really have any difference and the audience had nothing but negativity to anything they did.
Saying that the premise of Voyager inherently held it back is entirely missing the point. All that a particular story or premise requires to be judged a success is the right execution. For example, let's look at the premise of the Kingdom Hearts series, which, on paper, sounds like a complete mish-mash of things that are in no way similar, and should just be a complete disaster; however, because of the way that premise was executed, the series not only succeeded, but has become a critical success and a major touchstone franchise for Square Enix.
That's not to say that Voyager's premise was in any way bad or that it shouldn't have worked; quite the contrary. My firm belief is that, had it been executed correctly, Voyager could have been just as successful - if not moreso - than its immediate predecessor, DS9; the same thing applies to Enterprise, which had an equally awesome and interesting premise, but was also marred by execution problems.
With regards to whether or not the premise of the series was actually adhered to, I'd say that for the most part it was, because there is, as has been demonstrated, a myriad of different ways to interpret the statement "with no outside support"; while Anwar's interpretation of that statement is valid, so is Withers' argument that it didn't necessarily imply that the ship wouldn't be able to receive help from others. Neither interpretation is inherently right or wrong.
That's not to say that Voyager's premise was in any way bad or that it shouldn't have worked; quite the contrary. My firm belief is that, had it been executed correctly, Voyager could have been just as successful - if not moreso - than its immediate predecessor, DS9; the same thing applies to Enterprise, which had an equally awesome and interesting premise, but was also marred by execution problems.
With regards to whether or not the premise of the series was actually adhered to, I'd say that for the most part it was, because there is, as has been demonstrated, a myriad of different ways to interpret the statement "with no outside support"; while Anwar's interpretation of that statement is valid, so is Withers' argument that it didn't necessarily imply that the ship wouldn't be able to receive help from others. Neither interpretation is inherently right or wrong.
"At any cost" would only include bumping into convenient unguarded wormholes, if that cost is null and zero. The phrase is hinting towards the upper limits if any, of paying for what they need to get home not the lowest. "I will drive on the motorway to work AT ANY COST!" See? It doesn't make any "badass" sense?
In Torchwood last season, actually in TNG season one's Whent he Bough breaks, the baddie aliens were asking for payment in living human children. of course in TNG, it was just a barren species who wanted a new generation to raise, ,meanwhile in Torchwood they wanted to smoke %10 of the planets children like crack to get high.
In Torchwood last season, actually in TNG season one's Whent he Bough breaks, the baddie aliens were asking for payment in living human children. of course in TNG, it was just a barren species who wanted a new generation to raise, ,meanwhile in Torchwood they wanted to smoke %10 of the planets children like crack to get high.
I've only rewritten two episodes (Endgame and Fury.), and I lost Fury years ago, but both were entirely necessary and cathartic.
Heh, I just remembered that I also rewrote TNG season one with Calhoun as Captain, ie what anyone with 7th season TNG basic knowledge of the future would have done back in "the beginning" because lets face it even janeway could have sorted most of Picard's freshman adventures in just 15 minutes. Hell if you squeeze your eyes shut and think about it, Kirk was saving the universe in just 20 minutes once he became animated.
Heh, I just remembered that I also rewrote TNG season one with Calhoun as Captain, ie what anyone with 7th season TNG basic knowledge of the future would have done back in "the beginning" because lets face it even janeway could have sorted most of Picard's freshman adventures in just 15 minutes. Hell if you squeeze your eyes shut and think about it, Kirk was saving the universe in just 20 minutes once he became animated.
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