Did Voyager's premise inherently hold it back?

[Navaros]

What "premise" is the thread title talking about? The official premise, namely:

Pulled to the far side of the Galaxy, where the Federation is 75 years away at maximum warp speed, a Starfleet ship must cooperate with Maquis rebels to find a way home.

...?

Because that is an awesome premise with tons of untapped potential.

Unfortunately, the Voyager show completely abandoned that premise before the end of the first episode (?!), and instead replaced it with a lousy new premise that went nowhere: I.e: "let's have no conflict and no struggles to get home and instead focus on things holodeck soap operas and singing clowns etc. etc.)"

Voyager was certainly held back by the lousy new premise it adopted in place of its original premise.

However, if it had stuck with it's original premise, it had the potential to be the best Trek show. On paper, VOY's original premise is better than the premise of any other Trek show.

 

[Anwar]

I'm saying that with their premise, there was no way for them to do a "good job" with the Borg. There are complaints over the 8472 storyline with the Borg, which ultimately led to the 8472 being removed from Trek entirely. I had a similar argument with someone else over keeping the 8472/Borg war going and how that wouldn't work either.

DS9 had the Prophets, the Bajoran situation, Sisko's role as the Emissary, the permanent presence of the Cardassians (and later, the Dominion), the DMZ, and the Gamma Quadrant ALL IN THE BASIC PREMISE. That's more than enough for a good show, AND they had the Federation and the rest of the established Trekverse to fall back on. That is WAY less limited than VOY's "all on their own in the DQ" premise.

VOY always on the move means that they'll never be able to run into the same villains more than a few times (hell, running into them more than ONCE is pushing it) and thus their villains will NOT receive the time to be real threats or have any depth to them beyond gimmick bad guys who can't win because then the show is over.

Two Romulan Warbirds are scary because we can see these guys more than once, their threat can be built up, their characters explored, etc. NONE of that could be repeated with VOY's premise.

I DO think the original premise of VOY proper stunk. That's why when I re-wrote VOY I threw it out and made a different basic premise to begin with.

And no Navaros, VOY's original premise would NOT give it the potential to be a great Trek show, EVER.

 

[Withers]

However, if it had stuck with it's original premise, it had the potential to be the best Trek show. On paper, VOY's original premise is better than the premise of any other Trek show.

You know I've read that half a dozen times now and I'm starting to agree- on paper the idea rocked. It was completely different from DS9 and it gave the show a chance to completely develop an unexplored Quadrant. The possibilities are limitless. Even the trailers look awesome. I've said it before and I'll say it again- they took an awesome idea and executed it poorly.


-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

No, the execution was unimportant. The transition from paper to screen brought out the premise flaws that were always there.

 

[Withers]

No, the execution was unimportant.

Doesn't that kind of invalidate anything else you might have to say on the matter? Saying the execution of an idea is unimportant means you don't care what ultimately shows up so long as the idea meets your approval. Put another way, if you were hungry for cake, it wouldn't matter that I made it out of rocks and sand, so long as what I served you at the end was called 'cake.'

DS9 had the Prophets, the Bajoran situation, Sisko's role as the Emissary, the permanent presence of the Cardassians (and later, the Dominion), the DMZ, and the Gamma Quadrant ALL IN THE BASIC PREMISE. That's more than enough for a good show, AND they had the Federation and the rest of the established Trekverse to fall back on. That is WAY less limited than VOY's "all on their own in the DQ" premise.

Voyager had a blank slate to work with. If you're a creative writer who is good at what he does there isn't anything more exciting than that. They could have done absolutely anything they wanted with the Delta Quadrant. What they chose to do with it ultimately didn't go over very well.

VOY always on the move means that they'll never be able to run into the same villains more than a few times (hell, running into them more than ONCE is pushing it) and thus their villains will NOT receive the time to be real threats or have any depth to them beyond gimmick bad guys who can't win because then the show is over.

Except that they ran into the Borg all the way up to the final episode. Except that the Kazon, who shouldn't have occupied much space at all, kept coming back and chased Voyager. Except for episodes like Year of Hell. Again, for you, it's either "blow them up or they blow us up" and there's no other thing that can happen. It's very... lazy.


-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

No, it wouldn't matter if the cake was marzipan, chocolate or vanilla as long as it was cake. I'm saying that with their premise the execution didn't matter because it would never be good enough no matter WHAT happened.

Voyager didn't have a blank slate to work with, it had NOTHING to work with. There's a difference.

They kept running into the Borg, justified since the Borg have superior tracking and propulsion systems than VOY and ambitions for the whole Universe. Of course the Borg are fundamentally boring as a real foe so that's little good. The Kazon continually showing up was a premise violation and brought on much criticism. The Krenim, if they had made this a seasonal story it would've just brought on criticisms of how it was taking too long for them to escape.

When it's just one ship against so many, there's little else that can be done other than "blow them up or they blow us up". Now if VOY had a Federation backing them up, then stories could focus on diplomatic relations and other more character building stories. This would've been a premise violation, and thus wasn't done.

Straitjacket.

 

[Navaros]

What episodes are you guys talking about where Voyager blows up aliens-of-the-week?

I don't recall any of that in Voyager other than perhaps in Think Tank.

Voyager would have been amazing if most of the episodes were like TOS's Balance of Terror (epic starship vs. alien starship struggles), but they ain't.

In other words, I put forth that this discussion of Voyager blowing up new aliens every week is giving the show credit for something that it did not do, and would have been much better if it did do.

 

[Anwar]

BoT worked because it was a sci-fi version of an already good movie, in other words it was a rip-off.

And also, it relied on the backdrop of the Federation and the Romulan Empire and their history together which couldn't be replicated in VOY's situation.

So again, no.

 

[Withers]

No, it wouldn't matter if the cake was marzipan, chocolate or vanilla as long as it was cake.

Exactly. You're saying as long as they slap the "Trek" logo on it you'll accept it as good as it needs to be. That's... so lazy.

Voyager didn't have a blank slate to work with, it had NOTHING to work with. There's a difference.

Voyager had a completely unexplored quadrant and the ability to travel anywhere with in it that they wanted. How is that nothing to work with? You're like the kindergartner who is handed a full box of crayons that then complains he can't draw anything because he doesn't have any markers.

When it's just one ship against so many, there's little else that can be done other than "blow them up or they blow us up". Now if VOY had a Federation backing them up, then stories could focus on diplomatic relations and other more character building stories. This would've been a premise violation, and thus wasn't done.

Why? Why can't you get it through your thick skull that Voyager could potentially have run into something other than a massive fleet? And why does it require Federation backing in order for diplomacy to happen? Voyager itself proved that wasn't the case. They went so far as to bring in another Federation starship (a popular episode) and no one cried "Hey you're not following the premise!"

What episodes are you guys talking about where Voyager blows up aliens-of-the-week?

We're not necessarily talking about Voyager blowing up an AOTW. We're talking about how the villains in Voyager were, at best, ineffectual and at worst outright silly as became the case with the Borg.


-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

I never understood your "cake made out of dirt" argument to be frank, but I'm saying that with VOY's premise it didn't matter arguing about how VOY would've been different with a different execution; VOY would've been the same as what we got no matter WHAT the execution was, that was the constraint of the premise.

Voyager had no one to back them up, no redshirt ships or armies to pull out to get blow up by the enemy to show off how tough they were, they always had to be on the move meaning there'd never be any real exploration or development of any regions or species they encountered, and the whole quadrant was a hostile place anyways. So basically it's just them flying along in one direction getting shot at by a bunch of faceless mooks. Nothing to work with.

If they run into a species meant to be an antagonist, ones with their own empire, then it stands to reason that after initial encounters they will eventually send more than just one ship after them at which point VOY will either be destroyed at the hands of this advanced enemy or the enemy will be weaker and ineffectual so that VOY does NOT get destroyed. Diplomatic relations would be nonsensical when one is so much stronger than the other and VOY has nothing to really offer them. Now if VOY had a Federation backing them up, it would be different and allow for more in-depth relations and characterization because then it's not so easy as sending a bunch of ships to blow up VOY.

Equinox didn't violate the premise because the ship was destroyed at the end of the story with most of the crew dead and the rest exiled to the background where they couldn't bother anyone. If the stuck around THEN it would be a premise violation.

 

[Withers]

I never understood your "cake made out of dirt" argument to be frank, but I'm saying that with VOY's premise it didn't matter arguing about how VOY would've been different with a different execution; VOY would've been the same as what we got no matter WHAT the execution was, that was the constraint of the premise.

Do you even read other peoples posts? I'm just asking of our curiosity. The premise was that the ship was stuck in an unexplored part of space. That's it. The rest of it was open for interpretation up to and including the decision to try to get home or not (which Voyager touched on more than once.) The idea limits your imagination. That doesn't mean it limits what can possibly be imagined. Yours (and ultimately the writers) shortcomings and lack of inspiration doesn't excuse the final product we got.

Voyager had no one to back them up, no redshirt ships or armies to pull out to get blow up by the enemy to show off how tough they were

It's like talking to a brick wall. No one is demanding every episode of Voyager be BoBW/Dominion War style There are literally hundreds of episodes that include villains (new villains at that) that aren't ineffectual, aren't dumbed down for the sake of being easily beaten, are faced by only one ship and are well done.

If they run into a species meant to be an antagonist, ones with their own empire,

Again, No one is suggesting every villain on Voyager be the Dominion

I'm starting to question your ability to comprehend some pretty basic ideas. I mean if you can't wrap your head around what Voyager was about maybe you ought to watch it again. There's no shame in saying it went over your head... if you're 10.


-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

The Premise was that they would be stuck far from the Federation, spend all their time heading back to the Federation as fast as possible, and not have any aid or support. That means little to no recurring outside alien adversaries, little to no exploration of the surrounding space and their cultures, and no aid in battles. If those aren't limits, I don't know what a limit is.

"Literally hundreds"? Hardly, and anyways most of those encounters are one-shot villains or they require the backdrop of the good guys having a Federation to back them up so that even if it is an isolated one-on-one confrontation the bad guys can't just send more ships after them because they know that friendly fleets will come for THEM and it'll be war if they do. With VOY there wouldn't be anything from keeping those isolated encounters from erupting into a hunt for them.

Really? Usually when you hear complaints about the VOY villains they are frequently compared to the Klingons, Romulans and Dominion. All of which were...gasp...EMPIRES! I'm not saying that every encounter with them be a fleet vs Voyager, I'm saying that if these guys do possess their own Empire then eventually the isolated encounters would grow into bigger actions taken against VOY, actions they couldn't survive because they have no back-up or escape.

 

[Withers]

The Premise was that they would be stuck far from the Federation, spend all their time heading back to the Federation as fast as possible, and not have any aid or support.

That's what you think Voyager's premise was. That's not what it actually was. So until you can grasp what the show was about talking to you about it and getting anywhere is going to be pretty difficult... but I'll try since its the weekend and I'm pretty sure you make Lt. Commander at 100 posts.

"Literally hundreds"? Hardly, and anyways most of those encounters are one-shot villains or they require the backdrop of the good guys having a Federation to back them up so that even if it is an isolated one-on-one confrontation the bad guys can't just send more ships after them because they know that friendly fleets will come for THEM and it'll be war if they do. With VOY there wouldn't be anything from keeping those isolated encounters from erupting into a hunt for them.

I said this to you earlier- you're right, if you just want to declare what cannot be done and leave it at that, what ever it is you've declared impossible is then impossible. You know what the solution to that problem is? Creativity. You're all about the "It can't/They Can't/It Won't/They won't/There's no/" blah blah blah. Since you don't have an answer for it and they didn't do better than they did what we got must have been the best that could possibly have been done.

Wrong. You're trying to excuse bad writing, poor character development, and lackluster plot lines and villains by saying it was the premises fault rather than the writers (the same ones who came up with that premise). And that's crap.

Really? Usually when you hear complaints about the VOY villains they are frequently compared to the Klingons, Romulans and Dominion.

What? No they aren't. People complain about the villains being stupid (like the Kazon) over used yet powered down (like the Borg) or decent but under used (you can take your pick on that one.)

I'm not saying that every encounter with them be a fleet vs Voyager, I'm saying that if these guys do possess their own Empire then eventually the isolated encounters would grow into bigger actions taken against VOY, actions they couldn't survive because they have no back-up or escape.

You have a very narrow interpretation of pretty much everything. There's no reason that had to happen or that events had to unfold that way. You talk as if there were one way to do Voyager with the premise it had and that's the way they did it. Any deviation or alteration of any kind would have led to fan uprising and that just isn't so. Your (and, again, ultimately the writers) lack of creativity, attention to detail, and inability to execute a good idea does not earn Voyager a free pass.

And I think you know it. Saving face at this point is moot.


-Withers-​

 

[kimc]

I'm starting to question your ability to comprehend some pretty basic ideas. I mean if you can't wrap your head around what Voyager was about maybe you ought to watch it again. There's no shame in saying it went over your head... if you're 10.​

Any more personal comments like that and it's a warning for flaming.​

 

[Withers]

Go for it. I think I've nearly exhausted myself anyway lol.


-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

It's very clearly stated that Voyager is about a starship getting trapped in the Delta Quadrant, no support or outside aid, limited resources, and they will spend the show heading back to the Federation. That is indisputable.

I've given several examples of what couldn't be done, and all you can say in response is "you're wrong" and "bad writing". Until you give make actual examples of this "creativity" then you aren't really arguing. At least I'm giving examples, you aren't even doing that in response.

And yes, a major criticism of VOY when it began to air was that the older aliens the viewers were used to like the Klingons and Romulans weren't going to be featured which left most of them disgruntled and thus inherently biased against anything new Voyager presented them with. The Kazon, Vidiians and co were always being compared to the Klingons and co. I'm giving examples of why they couldn't be more like those guys, and all you can say is "you're wrong" AGAIN. At least give decent counter-examples of what the Kazon were supposed to be like and act like aside from "make them smarter"; until you do you aren't counter-arguing at all.

And yes, realistically if VOY was under attack from their enemies who were a space power with several vessels at their command and they managed to fight off the first few encounters it only stands to reason that their enemies would respond by hunting them and sending reinforcements. Want to argue this, then give a counter-argument as to why this wouldn't happen!

I'm not giving VOY a free pass, I'm explaining that the premise just was a straitjacket and they should've had a different one to begin with.

 

[Withers]

It's very clearly stated that Voyager is about a starship getting trapped in the Delta Quadrant, no support or outside aid, limited resources, and they will spend the show heading back to the Federation. That is indisputable.

"Indisputable" is the name of the ship. "Indisputable" is the fact that the captain was a woman. "Indisputable" is not that the "no support/outside aid" clause. "Indisputable" is not that they had to spend the entire show heading back to Earth.

Those things are very much disputable. I've show you actual trailers that announced the show that didn't even make mention of the Delta Quadrant or of Voyager even being stranded anywhere. From those trailers one might have assumed it was just another alpha quadrant show. To counter that you pointed me to an allexperts.com page that you might just as easily written yourself. That's not an argument. That's grasping at straws.

I've given several examples of what couldn't be done

You're right. That's all you've done. I've given you ways that the premise could've been executed better, as with the Borg, as with making villains that made sense, as with developing the characters in a more realistic fashion. All you have done is use those as examples of what, because of your fanatical adherence to a premise that never existed, couldn't be done. That is what you've spent several pages of multiple threads trying to do. Congratulations. You want examples of this show done better under the same premise? Read backwards my friend. They've been provided by me and by numerous other people (the likes of which have no doubt taken to the hills after this tennis match from hell.)

And yes, a major criticism of VOY when it began to air was that the older aliens the viewers were used to like the Klingons and Romulans weren't going to be featured which left most of them disgruntled and thus inherently biased against anything new

That's the same reason people originally didn't like the cast of TNG. They didn't like the idea of it. But they got over it. That's the same reason people didn't originally like DS9- it was on a station and thus different. They got over that too. People that gave Voyager an honest shot didn't dislike it in the end because there weren't familiar alien villains. People that gave Voyager an honest shot and didn't like it didn't like it because of the alien villains they invented, what they did with established villains, and how poorly (wait for it) executed the bulk of the early villains were. What were the Kazon supposed to be like? Not idiots. How hard is it to write an intelligent villain? How hard is it to expound on a villain and make it more visceral (like the Vidans or the Hirogen?) It isn't hard. They simply chose not to do it.

You demand examples but then when you get them you invent some reason why it could never have been done that way. I'd elaborate on ways to make the show better (i.e. better execution of what they had to work with) but you'd just ignore it anyway so I pose this question to you- what exactly is the point in my doing that?

And yes, realistically if VOY was under attack from their enemies who were a space power with several vessels at their command and they managed to fight off the first few encounters it only stands to reason that their enemies would respond by hunting them and sending reinforcements. Want to argue this, then give a counter-argument as to why this wouldn't happen!

Again, your narrow view of everything is constricting this to 'it could only ever happen one way.' You demand an example of why it wouldn't happen that way. Well, I'm not a writer on Star Trek Voyager. But if I were you can bet your boots I'd have put more thought into it that you're putting into it with thoughts like that one. You've treated this like it's Dominion War/BoBW or absolutely nothing at all (i.e. ineffectual, deballed, silly villains) Well, that's fine. That's the best the writers on the show could do too. Does that mean it was the best or only way it could have been done. Absolutely not.

I'm not giving VOY a free pass

By excusing absolutely every flaw the show has by pointing at the premise you are, in effect, giving the show the ultimate free pass. "Silly villains?" "Premise." "Over use of the Borg?" "Premise." "Horrible acting?" ...Premise!" "Terrible character development?" "...Premise!" "No explanation for certain occurrences?" "PREMISE!"

It's the nuclear energy of excuses: you can use it for absolutely anything.


-Withers-​

 

[Anwar]

It was stated in the PREMIERE that their mission was to get home at all costs. If that isn't "spend the whole show going to the Federation", I don't know what is.

One of the major criticisms of the show was that they were able to repair damages done to the ship when they shouldn't have been able to do that. If that's not "no outside support", I don't know what is.

You've told me that you think that they should've just had the Borg for one season and had it all be the 8472/Borg arc. I've heard that idea before and I'll tell you what I told him: In that sort of crossfire, VOY and likely several other species gets blown away. Either the 8472 start annihilating non-Borg worlds when they think the Borg are weakening or the Borg start assimilating everything they can get their hands on in order to bolster their numbers and tech level. And seeing how badly the Borg were getting beat, likely they'd just get annihilated in a little while and leave the 8472 free to annihilate the Trekverse.

And if they did that whole "Voyager uses Borg tech to create an anti-8472 weapon" that just makes it worse because then when VOY books it (to allow the 8472/Borg war to continue while creating a defense for themselves) then the Borg will be actively hunting them with several Cubes while the 8472 themselves will also send entire groups to hunt down VOY. Neither allows VOY's survival, and worse the audience would just hate it because they'd never accept one lone ship having such a huge impact on the Borg and the 8472.

No one ever gave an example of how the Kazon and Vidiians were supposed to be done better. All there is, is "Make them smarter", "More competence", with NOTHING else to back themselves up. Want them to be smarter? WRITE HOW THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE SMARTER!

As someone who watched Voyager when it first aired, I can safely say VOY NEVER got an honest shot. None of the original aliens got the same chances that the Ferengi, Borg and Cardassians got. As such, the Borg had to be brought back since they were the only ones anybody accepted (since they weren't originally from VOY) and the marginalization became inevitable.

"Make them more visceral"? The Vidiians and Hirogen were plenty visceral and had good concepts and writing behind them. It didn't stop the criticisms. No honest chances there.

I'd elaborate on ways to make the show better (i.e. better execution of what they had to work with) but you'd just ignore it anyway so I pose this question to you- what exactly is the point in my doing that?

You do that and I PROMISE I'll give an honest shot to it (the one VOY never got) and debate it with you with more than "The Premise doesn't allow it".

You've treated this like it's Dominion War/BoBW or absolutely nothing at all (i.e. ineffectual, deballed, silly villains) Well, that's fine. That's the best the writers on the show could do too. Does that mean it was the best or only way it could have been done. Absolutely not.

Then SHOW HOW it could've been done. Seriously. I want explanations for the Kazon being smarter adversaries in ways that allowed VOY to survive and escape encounters with them that DIDN'T make the VOY crew a bunch of ineffectual cowards always running away. Give them, and they get the honest shot.

It's the nuclear energy of excuses: you can use it for absolutely anything.

Which is why I think it should've had a different premise.

 

[Withers]

It was stated in the PREMIERE that their mission was to get home at all costs. If that isn't "spend the whole show going to the Federation", I don't know what is.

Nothing is. Early on in the series they debate several times whether its wise to just stop the ship and settle down. I can't imagine how they would have made that interesting but then again, that's not really my job is it? Since the characters on the show didn't see it so black and white (i.e. the writers) why must you? Why?

One of the major criticisms of the show was that they were able to repair damages done to the ship when they shouldn't have been able to do that. If that's not "no outside support", I don't know what is.

Look, I'm having fun doing this with you, but at some point you have to stop just making things up. Yes, one of the major criticisms of the show as that the ship was half destroyed one episode and fixed the next. Why was that a criticism? Because it was never explained. Ever. Not once. How you equate that to somehow meaning "no outside support" is located somewhere no logic has gone before.

You've told me that you think that they should've just had the Borg for one season and had it all be the 8472/Borg arc. I've heard that idea before and I'll tell you what I told him: In that sort of crossfire, VOY and likely several other species gets blown away. Either the 8472 start annihilating non-Borg worlds when they think the Borg are weakening or the Borg start assimilating everything they can get their hands on in order to bolster their numbers and tech level. And seeing how badly the Borg were getting beat, likely they'd just get annihilated in a little while and leave the 8472 free to annihilate the Trekverse.

And if they did that whole "Voyager uses Borg tech to create an anti-8472 weapon" that just makes it worse because then when VOY books it (to allow the 8472/Borg war to continue while creating a defense for themselves) then the Borg will be actively hunting them with several Cubes while the 8472 themselves will also send entire groups to hunt down VOY. Neither allows VOY's survival, and worse the audience would just hate it because they'd never accept one lone ship having such a huge impact on the Borg and the 8472.

Always with you what cannot be done. Just because you can't imagine an arc that could have been done successfully and just because the writers didn't do so doesn't mean that it was impossible. I can't build a skyscraper nor do I have any idea how I might go about doing so if I were tasked with that but those two facts do not equate to the construction of a skyscraper being impossible.

No one ever gave an example of how the Kazon and Vidiians were supposed to be done better. All there is, is "Make them smarter", "More competence", with NOTHING else to back themselves up. Want them to be smarter? WRITE HOW THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE SMARTER!

The Kazon were retarded without Seska. How they managed to steal the technology they had seemed unreasonable. How they were able to even function as a society in any capacity seemed unreasonable. They became a laughing stock after a while and their threat level seemed barely above that of, say, Quark holding a phaser. The Kazon didn't have to be led by a misogynistic clown. They didn't have to be written stupid. Give them better plots to take Voyager. Give them better dialogue. Do a better job executing their episodes. How? I'm not going to write a Kazon fan fiction for you to immediately ignore. The fact that it wasn't done, however, does not ergo that it was impossible to do better.

As someone who watched Voyager when it first aired, I can safely say VOY NEVER got an honest shot. None of the original aliens got the same chances that the Ferengi, Borg and Cardassians got. As such, the Borg had to be brought back since they were the only ones anybody accepted (since they weren't originally from VOY) and the marginalization became inevitable.

Because they either sucked and weren't replaced (as the Ferengi were as TNG's primary villain) or they were underdeveloped (as was the vase with the Vidians and Hirogen)- people didn't just disdain the villains from Voyager without cause. There were reasons they didn't like the villains and it had nothing to do with not giving them a chance. To cap that they brought the Borg in because everyone knew the Delta Quadrant was where their headquarters was located. They had the "Borg Card" from day one. They had to show the Borg. They didn't have to completely defang them, overwrite cannon with inattentive writing, and turn them into "Voyager Borg." That was poor execution. Rather than save that ace in the hole they discarded it in a bad hand of poker.

You do that and I PROMISE I'll give an honest shot to it (the one VOY never got) and debate it with you with more than "The Premise doesn't allow it".

I've done it. What you do with is explain to me, in the narrowest terms possible, how there is absolutely no way in the cosmos anything but what was presented could have been done with in the "confines" of the premise of a show based on a ship lost in the delta quadrant. You think I can't sit here and think of ways to make every Trek a little better? I'm a trekkie: we can all do that. Hindsight is 20/20.

Then SHOW HOW it could've been done. Seriously. I want explanations for the Kazon being smarter adversaries in ways that allowed VOY to survive and escape encounters with them that DIDN'T make the VOY crew a bunch of ineffectual cowards always running away. Give them, and they get the honest shot.

The Kazon did not make sense. First of all they were a culture seemingly baffled by technology and yet they were able to steal massive ships away from another species and utilize them to fight Voyager. If they had the technology of warp drive how on Earth could water have been a big deal to them? Why, when they had those massive warships, would they remain on a desert planet in the middle of nowhere? Why wouldn't they leave? They were established as being sort of nomadic so why? Why is their space seemingly so vast when their "homeworld" colonies were nothing but ragtag tent cities?

You want to know how I would have made the Kazon better? I would have eliminated the "silly" factor. I would have made their culture make sense. I would have take a page from Trek history and based the first major antagonist of the Voyager crew based off a human culture (I would probably have gone for North Korea- deeply xenophobic, deeply in denial about their status, and a culture of people who worship as a god what is obviously a dictator.) I can see that villain being more the sort to take himself seriously and be a major thorn for Janeway personally.

That's just one of infinite ways the Kazon could have been kept from being the ridiculous characters they became. Now, I'm sure there are a trillion ways that that would have either made it worse, wouldn't make sense according to your interpretation of the premise (backwards as it is) or some other general reason that it wouldn't work. Let me save you the time; I'm not a science fiction writer. I'm also not a mechanic. But I know the difference when something is wrong with my car and when its running smoothly. Just because I can't fix the sound the engine makes does not mean doing so is impossible.

It's the nuclear energy of excuses: you can use it for absolutely anything.

You use that excuse to justify everything that is wrong with the show. I'm saying that excuse doesn't hold water in really any of the examples you have established thus far.


-Withers-​

 

[Arix]

I'm going to have to agree with Withers on this one, the execution held the show back, not the premise. Now, while I liked Voyager, I do think it could have been much better.

The premise was a good one. Strand a bunch people who have a built-in distrust for one another on the other side of the galaxy, make them work and live on the same ship, and have them attempt to get home together. This was material for great television.

First, we should have seen much more of the "scrouging for supplies" or "limping along" storylines. If that was all the show was, it would have gotten really old, really fast. But we should have had more episodes like that. After all, how many photon torpedos did they use? How many shuttlecraft did they lose? How long did they run the holodecks, even when nobody was actively using them ("Fair Haven" and "Spirit Folk" - I looking right at you and I'm not happy)? How many Delta Fliers did they manage to construct? They shouldn't have started almost every episode like they had just launched. Look at ENT "Damage" and "The Forgotten" for well-done stories in this fashion.

Second, there should have been more tension between the Starfleet and Maquis crews. The Starfleet crew were disciplined people who were committed to regulations and the Starfleet/Federation way of life. The Maquis crew were slightly undisciplined people who liked to live life on their own terms. Most of the Maquis had either not attended the Academy, never enlisted in Starfleet, or had left the service. These two groups of people would NOT get along too easily. By the end of the series, they should all be good friends, but not fully intergrated into the Starfleet lifestyle. A good way to do this would have been to have the Maquis were civilian clothes, not Starfleet uniforms. It always struck me as odd that Neelix and Seven never had to wear uniforms when the non-Starfleet Maquis were forced to wear them.

Third, Janeway should have been looking to form alliances with several species along the way back to the Alpha Quadrant, like in the episode "The Void." Form small proto-Federations with species for the purpose of survival and self-defense as long as the ship was within a certain region of space. Once Voyager left that area, they would need to negotiate another alliance with a new set of aliens.

In short, make the show more serialized.

If the show had done all of these things, which the premise suggested, IMO, it would have been much, much better.

I agree with all these points.

The premise wasn't the problem, it didn't hold the show back. A Federation ship, with a half Starfleet, half Maquis crew, is stranded on the other side of the galaxy, is a very broad premise.

It was the execution of that premise that was the problem. As Admiral Shran said, how many photon torpedos did they use? After they said they only had a limited amount. How many shuttlecraft were destroyed? Again, after they said they only had a limited amount. How many episodes featured the holodeck? And no, it having its own power source doesn't make any sense.

For every episode Janeway Rulz! mentioned, there was another episode which did the complete opposite! There is a difference between focusing every episode on Voyager's lack of energy and supplies (which is not what I wanted at all), and simply staying consistent - i.e. not having Voyager use 50 torpedoes to destroy an enemy ship, while utilising all 12 shuttlecraft, and running the holodeck non-stop... Okay okay, so I'm exaggerating slightly, but I think you all see my point.

Your first two points are completely invalid and so is this one. Rather than just ignore what happened in the previous episode, why not explain how the ship is fixed? "Captain's Log: After two weeks at a Nehydron star base, we're finally back underway. They were kind enough to assist in repairs to Voyager though their version of coffee leaves something to be desired..." Bam. Done. You know why they didn't? (Rhetorical) I don't either but it made them seem very lazy at worst at best just inattentive.

Voy needed a different premise

No. Voyager needed a better cast, more attentive writers, and better execution.
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I completely agree. Simple throwaway lines to let us know, "Yeah, we remember that last episode Voyager was missing a nacelle and life support was destroyed," could have made all the difference!

Great characters like Chakotay, Kes, Tuvok, Paris , Torres, Neelix and Kim deserved more screen time.

I completely agree, except replace 'screen time' with continued 'character growth and development'. By the later seasons, they were there to serve that episode's plot, nothing more.

It wasn't that I hated any of these characters, they simply stopped being interesting because they stopped developing, growing, or changing as characters.

The premise says "No support", not "no Federation support". The former indicates no aid coming from ANYONE, whereas the other just says they won't get help from the Federation. That IS what the writers were tasked with, and what they rightfully saw as a straitjacket and thus discarded and thus brought nothing but criticisms down on them.

VOY simply needed a less constraining premise, and probably shouldn't have been aired until a year or so after DS9 was over. At the time VOY originally aired, the Fandom had become a Hatedom that was no longer pleasable. Most of those jerks would've either been more open-minded or left the fandom entirely if VOY aired in 2001 or something.

Okay guys... I think we all need to stop, and apologise to Anwar, clearly we missed the part where he was actually a Voyager writer and was privy to the goings-on of the writing staff while the show was being made...

As I've tried to explain in the past, not all of us watched the show when it originally aired. For some of us, Voyager was our first Trek show. Once again, Anwar makes grand sweeping generalisations that have no basis in fact.

But thats all I'm going to say in regards to his comments, I've travelled down this path before - I see no further need to do it all again.

They weren't ignoring the premise. They were ignoring the details and missing the opportunities to elaborate on it and make it real.
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THIS. Is probably the best comment about Voyager EVER.

THIS was the problem, THIS is what they could have done better. MADE IT REAL. And don't even think of telling me "its Science Fiction, of course its not real".

If the writers had sat down, and wondered "What would it be like to BE in this position?" - and actually come up with some answers, then we most likely wouldn't be here discussing what it could have done better.

If they'd actually stuck to the idea and said - okay, we're stuck here, in unfamiliar territory, with limited supplies and limited energy - and stayed CONSISTANT, then I personally think Voyager would have been a better show. Not just a good, or even sometimes, great show (because, contrary to Anwar's belief, I can criticise a show while still liking it) - but a fantastic show.