Did Troi take Riker's surname?

[WillsBabe]

This thread over in the Voyager forum http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=84531 made me wonder whether she did.

During Nemesis, Picard addresses Riker as Mr Troi. It's a light moment, but I've occassionally wondered if there's more to it that the "You're married now so your opinion doesn't count" ribbing.

We don't get to hear Troi referred to as Riker.

The surname Troi could be human, quite easily. But, I think there is something deliberately exotic and alien-sounding to it that makes me think the implication is that it's a Betazoid name rather than a human one.

In Angel One, I think Troi refers to her own society as a matriarchial one.

One of the things I've always enjoyed about fandom and being a fan is constructing theories from bits and pieces of information. These are the only bits and pieces of information and supposition on this subject.

So, do you think that Deanna took Will's surname? Do you think that it could be the case that previous generations of men who have married into the family have taken the Troi surname?

(Sometime ago I was discussing this in a couple of posts in the movies forum with another poster. That other poster said she (I think it was a woman) disliked the the "Mr Troi" line in Nemesis. I can't remember who the poster was or the reasons why, but if you are reading this, can you remind me? I thought you made a really interesting point.)

I haven't read the Titan books. Does anyone know if Deanna is referred to even casually by her husband's surname?

 

[RikerLover]

This thread over in the Voyager forum http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=84531 made me wonder whether she did.

During Nemesis, Picard addresses Riker as Mr Troi. It's a light moment, but I've occassionally wondered if there's more to it that the "You're married now so your opinion doesn't count" ribbing.

We don't get to hear Troi referred to as Riker.

The surname Troi could be human, quite easily. But, I think there is something deliberately exotic and alien-sounding to it that makes me think the implication is that it's a Betazoid name rather than a human one.

In Angel One, I think Troi refers to her own society as a matriarchial one.

One of the things I've always enjoyed about fandom and being a fan is constructing theories from bits and pieces of information. These are the only bits and pieces of information and supposition on this subject.

So, do you think that Deanna took Will's surname? Do you think that it could be the case that previous generations of men who have married into the family have taken the Troi surname?

(Sometime ago I was discussing this in a couple of posts in the movies forum with another poster. That other poster said she (I think it was a woman) disliked the the "Mr Troi" line in Nemesis. I can't remember who the poster was or the reasons why, but if you are reading this, can you remind me? I thought you made a really interesting point.)

I haven't read the Titan books. Does anyone know if Deanna is referred to even casually by her husband's surname?

It looks like she keeps Troi probably for professional reasons. In the Titan novels, she keeps Troi.

Spoiler: Over a Torrent Sea

Their daughter's name is Natasha Miana Riker-Troi

 

[kythe]

I prefer to think he took her name, if only to appear more progressive in the 24th century. I remember an episode in an alternative timeline where Picard and Beverly Crusher married and she took his name. I found it a bit jarring because even today, many women at least maintain their own name for professional purposes. It almost seems a step backwards for her to take his name and keep it even after a divorce.

Troi does mention Betazoids are matriarchal, so I would like to think this means Riker marries into her family rather than her giving up her family identity for him. I'm fine with a hyphenated name too, but I just prefer seeing people think a little differently about family structure in the future rather than continuing to mimic what we do today.

 

[Praetor]

You know, I'm glad that you brought this up, WillsBabe.

It always seemed to me that the invention of the name 'Troi' was purposefully meant to invoke Sirtis' Greek-ish appearance, or at the very least conjur the beauty of Helen of Troy, while also seeming 'alien.'

Then we meet her mother, who's last name is also Troi. Her father was subsequently referred to as 'Ian Andrew Troi' as if 'Troi' was his family name. I frankly prefer to think that due to the nobility and various social peculiarities of Betazed, Deanna's father was required to take Lwaxana's Sacred House name, and perhaps completely drop his own surname, unless it was 'Andrew'?

It would therefore follow logically to me that Riker would have to do the same, ignoring the books. It would be rather interesting if Will showed some stigma in having to do so as an analog to modern situations where men are uncomfortable when their partners don't take their name, but Riker having the attitude might seem somewhat outdated. I can also see Deanna not giving a damn whether Riker took her name or not, as she didn't really seem to care much about Betazoid family traditions that much herself.

Maybe that's why it took them so long to renew their relationship? Riker didn't want to give up his name. What's so bad about Captain William T. Troi, anyway?

 

[WillsBabe]

I think I wish I'd titled this thread "Did Riker take Troi's surname", which I think is the question I was asking!

I prefer to think he took her name, if only to appear more progressive in the 24th century. I remember an episode in an alternative timeline where Picard and Beverly Crusher married and she took his name. I found it a bit jarring because even today, many women at least maintain their own name for professional purposes. It almost seems a step backwards for her to take his name and keep it even after a divorce.

I think I'd like him to have taken her name, too. Not because he would have appeared progressive, but because it would demonstrate that in the future and in having relationships with aliens, things are different to how they are now. It would also show that he's progressive, or open minded to new things, and that would reflect the mentality of a Starfleet officer in general and Riker in particular.

Troi does mention Betazoids are matriarchal,

Is it mentioned in Angel One? If it is, it's probably a fact that gets overlooked since it's an episode that fans try to avoid at all costs! (myself not included... )

You know, I'm glad that you brought this up, WillsBabe.

Why, thank you, Praetor!

It always seemed to me that the invention of the name 'Troi' was purposefully meant to invoke Sirtis' Greek-ish appearance, or at the very least conjur the beauty of Helen of Troy, while also seeming 'alien.'

That's often been my thought on the matter, too.

Then we meet her mother, who's last name is also Troi. Her father was subsequently referred to as 'Ian Andrew Troi' as if 'Troi' was his family name. I frankly prefer to think that due to the nobility and various social peculiarities of Betazed, Deanna's father was required to take Lwaxana's Sacred House name, and perhaps completely drop his own surname, unless it was 'Andrew'?

I think "required" might be a bit strong. Maybe "expected", or "hoped for". I say this because although we see Lwaxana talking to Deanna often about their heritage and family etc, in Half a Life, Lwaxana talks to Timicin about how the constraints, expectations and habits of society and how they should be challenged.

It would therefore follow logically to me that Riker would have to do the same, ignoring the books. It would be rather interesting if Will showed some stigma in having to do so as an analog to modern situations where men are uncomfortable when their partners don't take their name,

Mine, bless him, didn't care whether I did or didn't. I still refer to myself sometimes by my married name and sometimes by my own name, depending what kind of mood I'm in!

but Riker having the attitude might seem somewhat outdated.

It would make an interesting story to explore his attitudes, I think. But at the end of the day I think he'd be okay with it. Then again, we have the "aristocratic" comments in The Loss that hint he might not be.

I've really enjoyed everyone's input into this. It's interesting to me how Praetor's and kythe's are very similar to mine. I just wish I'd titled the thread differently, maybe I'd have got more responses and discussion, but I'm happy with the ones I did get.

 

[Alrik]

I prefer to think he took her name, if only to appear more progressive in the 24th century. I remember an episode in an alternative timeline where Picard and Beverly Crusher married and she took his name. I found it a bit jarring because even today, many women at least maintain their own name for professional purposes. It almost seems a step backwards for her to take his name and keep it even after a divorce.

Troi does mention Betazoids are matriarchal, so I would like to think this means Riker marries into her family rather than her giving up her family identity for him. I'm fine with a hyphenated name too, but I just prefer seeing people think a little differently about family structure in the future rather than continuing to mimic what we do today.

You might be over thinking this a bit. "Future Beverly" was only being true to character. Remember, Beverly had taken the name Crusher when she married Jack and kept it after his death until she married Picard (in the alternate timeline.) So it is no stretch, or even that uncommon, for her to keep the Picard name after the divorce.

 

[Timo]

I remember an episode in an alternative timeline where Picard and Beverly Crusher married and she took his name. I found it a bit jarring because even today, many women at least maintain their own name for professional purposes. It almost seems a step backwards for her to take his name and keep it even after a divorce.

It is also very surprising in the sense that she seems to be breaking tradition there. "Sub Rosa" suggests that she's the latest in a chain of "Howard women", and that this chain extends back to the 18th century (a bit odd but not impossible). She broke it with Jack Crusher, and then with Jean-Luc Picard - without having any known sisters who would have carried on the family name. Pretty low of her...

Troi does mention Betazoids are matriarchal

But not necessarily matrilinear. Then again, Lwaxana seems to stay Troi through her many marriages...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WillsBabe]

You might be over thinking this a bit. "Future Beverly" was only being true to character. Remember, Beverly had taken the name Crusher when she married Jack and kept it after his death until she married Picard (in the alternate timeline.) So it is no stretch, or even that uncommon, for her to keep the Picard name after the divorce.

I think it's different keeping your husband's name when he's dead rather than when you've divorced him. Keeping the name of a dead husband provides a feeling of connection and continuity and connection that I can't see I'd want after a divorce, so to me it seems odd that'd she'd keep the Picard name. But then plenty of women do. OTOH, they do seem fond of each other after the divorce.

 

[CaptainStoner]

I *think* the character names were in place well before casting, and of course we're all aware that initially, Crosby was to play Troi and Sirtis to play Yar.

There's no way I can see Troi taking the surname of Riker. Lwaxana would be all over that. But Riker was a very 90's guy.

I think in the end, Riker would have techically changed his name to Riker-Troi, or Riker Troi. But it might be used mainly in formal occasions. Because "Captain Riker" just sounds too good.

 

[Praetor]

There is that story about switching the names once they'd hired the actors though. It could be apocryphal.

 

[Timo]

According to various backstage books, the security broad was indeed supposed to be called "Macha Hernandez" at the point they auditioned for people like Sirtis; the swap from Latino to Russkie stereotype came only with the casting of Crosby.

No similar information seems to be available on what the Counselor character was to be called originally. The TNG Companion suggests that the name "Troi" was already well established when the security chick evolved from Macha to Tanya to Tasha. All that the casting call specified was that Troi be ethnic somehow: "Anywhere from Italian, Greek, Hungarian, Russian, Icelandic etc." was the wording used.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Praetor]

Thank you for filling that in.

 

[Daneel]

I remember an episode in an alternative timeline where Picard and Beverly Crusher married and she took his name. I found it a bit jarring because even today, many women at least maintain their own name for professional purposes. It almost seems a step backwards for her to take his name and keep it even after a divorce.

It is also very surprising in the sense that she seems to be breaking tradition there. "Sub Rosa" suggests that she's the latest in a chain of "Howard women", and that this chain extends back to the 18th century (a bit odd but not impossible). She broke it with Jack Crusher, and then with Jean-Luc Picard - without having any known sisters who would have carried on the family name. Pretty low of her...

Yeah, but I doubt the twentieth-century people who were writing the episode really thought much about it at all. In their society, most women simply take their husband's surname, and I guess to keep things identifiable to the twentieth-century audience, they had the character of Beverly do the same.

I agree, though, that it's a bit unrealistic when you consider it's supposed to be the twenty-fourth century, and especially in light of that whole "Howard women" thing.

Troi does mention Betazoids are matriarchal

But not necessarily matrilinear. Then again, Lwaxana seems to stay Troi through her many marriages...

Timo Saloniemi

Many marriages? IIRC, her only other marriage after Ian Andrew Troi was to Jeyal, the Tavnian. She almost married that Minister Campio guy, but it never happened after she arrived at the wedding naked.

Oh yeah, and she was also technically married to Odo, but I don't think that really counts (besides, I don't think he has a last name anyway).

Interesting thread, WillsBabe. It's got me thinking... I never really considered that "Troi" might be Lwaxana's Betazoid name, but it kind of makes sense, especially since she was apparently part of the Betazoid nobility or something (Daughter of the Fifth House, etc.).

 

[Praetor]

It's possible Odo's full name could be 'Odo Ital' since the name Odo comes from the Bajoran 'odo ital' meaning unknown sample (even if he normally goes by Odo.) It would also technically still work since the Bajoran surname goes first, and he is always called 'Constable Odo.'

So clearly he did not take Troi's name or we'd be calling him Constable Troi.

 

[kythe]

Personally, I don't really count the Lwaxana DS9 episodes. I know they are canon, but I tend to ignore those episodes because I just don't think her character worked well with that crew.

I love Lwaxana Troi on TNG and I think she and Deanna had some great scenes and character moments, but she just didn't develop in a positive way on DS9. Thus, I don't worry about her relationship with Odo, or the reference to her pregnancy with another spouse.

 

[Rii]

I prefer to think he took her name, if only to appear more progressive in the 24th century.

How would that be progressive, exactly? A matriarchal society is no less objectionable than a patriarchal one.

I just prefer seeing people think a little differently about family structure in the future rather than continuing to mimic what we do today.

I would hope that by the 24th century the institution of marriage will have been abolished entirely.

 

[WillsBabe]

I don't worry about her relationship with Odo, or the reference to her pregnancy with another spouse.

I think you raise an interesting point. Not necessarily about the topic in question, but about an expanding fictional universe. I can't remember where I read it but someone once said that you can't "know" a text until it's finished. Somewhere else on this board someone else said something similar recently and someone else contradicted them. Anyway. I used to "know" Star Trek, TOS. I used to understand it. Then TNG came along and things changed. What I knew to be "true" of the Trek universe altered. No problem, though, I like TNG and got to know it, too. Then DS9 came along, and then Voyager and Enterprise. By the time Voyager arrived with Tom Paris in incarceration, I'd completely lost the ability or the will to understand the text anymore. So, for me, folks who take this bit of Trek and that bit and build their own "canon" is understandable.

Just an aside, folks...

 

[kythe]

Rii, I have to admit, you're right on both points.

Willsbabe, I like your ideas regarding the ever-changing nature of the Star Trek universe. With a show of this proportion, it is impossible to please everyone as they continually build on and change what has already been established with the characters.