Did they kill “baby Spock” with the katra in Search?

[Search4]

I'm of the opinion that Old Spock overwrote "baby" Spock and that therefore baby Spock did not get a chance to develop. Despite every indication that he could, with retraining. And "his mind's a void" doesn't explain that he could howl, would take comfort from Saavik (of any kind), walk (which requires years of muscular development)... etc. IMHO had the Katra not been involved the Vulcans would take him in and educate him presumably to a functional adult.

Very much like "Sim" in Enterprise.

 

[Adventerprise]

He's a somewhat feral Spock, then.

 

[XCV330]

I'm of the opinion that Old Spock overwrote "baby" Spock and that therefore baby Spock did not get a chance to develop. Despite every indication that he could, with retraining. And "his mind's a void" doesn't explain that he could howl, would take comfort from Saavik (of any kind), walk (which requires years of muscular development)... etc. IMHO had the Katra not been involved the Vulcans would take him in and educate him presumably to a functional adult.

Very much like "Sim" in Enterprise.

Maybe his own katra got stored in a terra cotta pot somewhere in T'Pau's house.
Vulcans are sensible people. I'm sure they do a katra inventory now and then.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In the novels it was Saavik who he marries.

Indeed. Vulcan's Heart specifically. One of my favorite Trek novels.

 

[Therin of Andor]

That Saavik thing is even more disturbing if you take novel canon into it. Spock has known her since she was a kid.

And Saavik's affair with David Marcus.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I look at the Katra-less young Spock as more or less a blank slate or a hollow shell, not unlike the Spock they were leading around by remote control in "Spock's Brain." So no, he wasn't "killed." I can't see Kirk's crew or the Vulcans agreeing to the "refusion" if it was killing one sentient being in favor of another.

 

[Longinus]

There are no two Spocks. The Genesis Spock is just Spock suffering from complete amnesia, and the Katra is a backup copy of his memories and skills. All that happened is that they cured his amnesia. And yes, there is no reason he would have forgotten what happened on Genesis.

Also, Saavik is a full Vulcan, and probably didn't know Spock before the academy. They may have married later, I don't know. (Maybe their daughter later became a member of the Vulcan Isolationist Movement and joined space pirates while pretending to be a Romulan to recover an ancient artefact.)

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Also, Saavik is a full Vulcan, and probably didn't know Spock before the academy.

What's your reasoning for thinking this? I'm curious.

 

[Longinus]

What's your reasoning for thinking this? I'm curious.

There is no reason to think otherwise.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

There's nothing in either TWOK or TSFS to indicate one way or the other whether or not she knew Spock before the Academy, though, so I don't understand why you can say she probably didn't know him beforehand. And with the half-Romulan background, we at least have the original authorial intent, a deleted scene, and several bits of tie-in material that indicate that that was the case.

 

[SantaEddie74]

Spock dying and being resurrected is a bit like Data being killed in NEM but his body parts not being vaporized, just heavily damaged beyond the capacity to function without repair and being scattered to the vacuum of space. Then the Enterprise-E crew beaming his surviving components back onboard the ship, replicating replacement parts to compensate for the ones lost and reconstructing Data as he more or less looked before he went over to the Scimitar.

Then Data's memories and knowledge stored inside B4's neural net are downloaded back into reconstructed Data's positronic brain and there you have it: Data reborn, and still Data. Technically and for all practical purposes.

 

[Longinus]

There's nothing in either TWOK or TSFS to indicate one way or the other whether or not she knew Spock before the Academy, though, so I don't understand why you can say she probably didn't know him beforehand. And with the half-Romulan background, we at least have the original authorial intent, a deleted scene, and several bits of tie-in material that indicate that that was the case.

She may have known him before, sure, though nothing indicates that they did. As for the Romulan thing, that was deleted for a reason, they didn't want to include it. We just cannot just start to assume that everything that was considered in one point of the production but later discarded to be true.

 

[Longinus]

Spock dying and being resurrected is a bit like Data being killed in NEM but his body parts not being vaporized, just heavily damaged beyond the capacity to function without repair and being scattered to the vacuum of space. Then the Enterprise-E crew beaming his surviving components back onboard the ship, replicating replacement parts to compensate for the ones lost and reconstructing Data as he more or less looked before he went over to the Scimitar.

Then Data's memories and knowledge stored inside B4's neural net are downloaded back into reconstructed Data's positronic brain and there you have it: Data reborn, and still Data. Technically and for all practical purposes.

Yes.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

She may have known him before, sure, though nothing indicates that they did.

Although, to play Devil's Advocate, nothing indicates that they didn't, either. In fact, the rapport she and Spock share makes a good case that their relationship goes back farther than 3-4 years, IMO.

As for the Romulan thing, that was deleted for a reason, they didn't want to include it.

Do we know for sure that Meyer or Bennett had second thoughts about the half-Romulan backstory and consciously decided to delete it? It seems more likely that the mention of Saavik's mixed heritage was just axed from the Kirk/Spock walk just to tighten the scene up a bit.

I personally like the Romulan backstory. It makes Saavik more unique and a lot more interesting than just "Here's another Vulcan who's going to replace Spock."

 

[Longinus]

Although, to play Devil's Advocate, nothing indicates that they didn't, either. In fact, the rapport she and Spock share makes a good case that their relationship goes back farther than 3-4 years, IMO.

I guess. They never refer to anything before the Academy and I only read their rapport as something they developed there. But yeah, sure, it is possible they knew each other beforehand. Though if Spock indeed is quite a bit older than Saavik (implied, but not necessarily the case, full Vulcans age slower than half-Vulcans) and Spock knew Saavik when she was a kid, then that would not really explain their rapport either. Spock was in the space for most of his adult life, so they would have not socialised as peers and Saavik would be pretty much a different person when they met again.

Do we know for sure that Meyer or Bennett had second thoughts about the half-Romulan backstory and consciously decided to delete it? It seems more likely that the mention of Saavik's mixed heritage was just axed from the Kirk/Spock walk just to tighten the scene up a bit.

It is kinda major thing to not include, just because. I mean we don't know that she isn't a half-Bajoran either, but nothing we see gives a reason to assume she is.

I personally like the Romulan backstory. It makes Saavik more unique and a lot more interesting than just "Here's another Vulcan who's going to replace Spock."

You mean it makes her another half-Vulcan who has issues with reconciling their logical Vulcan side and emotional non-Vulcan side...

 

[SantaEddie74]

I liked the idea of Saavik being half-Romulan at first but then as the years passed and I became more familiar with the Federation-Romulan backstory it made a half-Romulan being so readily accepted into Starfleet at a time when the Federation and the Star Empire were still experiencing high tensions and on-again, off-again armed conflict a bit much to swallow. I know the Federation, the Romulans and the Klingons established the colony on Nimbus III when Saavik would have been a little girl and so the two powers weren't in open warfare during the 2280s, but still...human and later Federation wariness and paranoia about the Romulans might have made her a less-than-prime candidate for a slot at Starfleet Academy.

That said, if it were ever made fully canon by CBS or Paramount I'd accept it, but it would make you think about how rigorous 23rd century background and genetic tests are at Starfleet Academy. She was thus never tested and assumed to be a Vulcan, a background test was never conducted or it was but then the results covered up so that Starfleet could have taken advantage of having a half-Romulan officer serving in the ranks at a time when the Federation still viewed the Star Empire with extreme suspicion.

 

[johnnybear]

Surely if they hadn't of remerged Spock's mind with his body then we'd be getting a motion picture version of Spock's Brain? Seriously if they hadn't of put his katra back into his body wouldn't the younger Spock eventually grow into a wild animal? Mindless and savage?
JB

 

[Longinus]

Surely if they hadn't of remerged Spock's mind with his body then we'd be getting a motion picture version of Spock's Brain? Seriously if they hadn't of put his katra back into his body wouldn't the younger Spock eventually grow into a wild animal? Mindless and savage?
JB

He probably would have grown to be a perfectly normal half-Vulcan. But he would have needed to relearn everything and he would have not had his previous memories or life experience.

 

[johnnybear]

I'm not so sure he would have! without the influence of others we become as nature intended, the savage animal of the woods! And with Vulcans, away from the calming dictates of logic and relearning his old memories and experiences how would Spock still become the Spock we know?
JB

 

[Longinus]

I'm not so sure he would have! without the influence of others we become as nature intended, the savage animal of the woods! And with Vulcans, away from the calming dictates of logic and relearning his old memories and experiences how would Spock still become the Spock we know?
JB

Of course he would need training. And no, he would not have become the Spock we know, he would have probably become quite a different person.