Did the 24th century shows get too insulting/condescending about TOS?

[UnknownSample]

No, the TNG officers "reactions" came first, Rtiker's worst comment came before he had even spoken to the survivors . Initially Offenhouse was calm and respectful, he only started pushing when he sensed he was being given the run around.

The crew was a little patronizing. These passengers were lucky to get any attention at all, including being saved in the first place, considering the crew was in a crisis situation that might lead to war any time. Why did the millionaire get the runaround? Because of the crisis. Everyone was in crisis mode.

The captain can't just drop everything to respond to any passenger's wishes or questions or demands. That guy saw himself as being on a higher level than Picard, with a right to personal service from him.

 

[Commishsleer]

No, the TNG officers "reactions" came first, Rtiker's worst comment came before he had even spoken to the survivors . Initially Offenhouse was calm and respectful, he only started pushing when he sensed he was being given the run around.

Its the lack of respect I have an issue with. The crew of the Enterprise had contempt for the 20th century survivors before they had even been revived.

The biggest flaw with that ep is that nobody thought to call in Troi right away. What's the point of having a counselor on board if not to deal with situations like this? It never occurred to anyone that maybe these people would have a little trouble adjusting to the fact that they just woke up on a starship hundreds of years after their own time?

Troi should have been standing by to help them cope emotionally from Act 1.

Someone should have looked after them. If Troi was too busy then surely someone from the thousand odd crew could be spared.

The crew was a little patronizing. These passengers were lucky to get any attention at all, including being saved in the first place, considering the crew was in a crisis situation that might lead to war any time. Why did the millionaire get the runaround? Because of the crisis. Everyone was in crisis mode.

The captain can't just drop everything to respond to any passenger's wishes or questions or demands. That guy saw himself as being on a higher level than Picard, with a right to personal service from him.

I had no issue with Picard not wanting to get his hands dirty with lesser species. But surely he had some historians in his crew that could have dealt with the civilians in a polite respectful manner. I understand that if Picard and perhaps his senior officers might have been too busy with war preparations but surely someone else could have done it.
The millionaire guy probably always would have demanded to see the captain regardless of whether Riker had been rude to him or not. Did it really hurt Picard to see him for 5 minutes without putting him down?

 

[UnknownSample]

Its the lack of respect I have an issue with. The crew of the Enterprise had contempt for the 20th century survivors before they had even been revived.


Someone should have looked after them. If Troi was too busy then surely someone from the thousand odd crew could be spared.



I had no issue with Picard not wanting to get his hands dirty with lesser species. But surely he had some historians in his crew that could have dealt with the civilians in a polite respectful manner. I understand that if Picard and perhaps his senior officers might have been too busy with war preparations but surely someone else could have done it.
The millionaire guy probably always would have demanded to see the captain regardless of whether Riker had been rude to him or not. Did it really hurt Picard to see him for 5 minutes without putting him down?

Even nice people aren't completely nice all the time, in all circumstances. People can be a little brusque or impatient when they mean no harm. Everyone got to know each other, and things worked out great. It really wasn't all that bad.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

The millionaire guy probably always would have demanded to see the captain regardless of whether Riker had been rude to him or not. Did it really hurt Picard to see him for 5 minutes without putting him down?

After all, what's the first thing somebody in a difficult situation wants to know? "Hey, who's in charge here?" Even aliens usually want to be taken to your leader, not your assistant.

 

[Greg Cox]

. But surely he had some historians in his crew that could have dealt with the civilians in a polite respectful manner.

It's a little-known fact that Ship Historians were phased out after the Marla McGivers Incident back in the 23rd century.

 

[Duncan MacLeod]

All it takes is one McAirhead.

 

[Tenacity]

After all, what's the first thing somebody in a difficult situation wants to know? "Hey, who's in charge here?" Even aliens usually want to be taken to your leader, not your assistant.

Look at all the times the Enterprise arrives at a planet, and Picard want to talk to the planet's leader, and right away too.

It's the leader of an entire planet, if there's a major crisis I wonder if they might be busy?

Shouldn't Picard be talking to a deputy under-secretary, or someone from the local defense department?

Who does Picard think he is?

It's a little-known fact that Ship Historians were phased out after the Marla McGivers Incident back in the 23rd century.

Wasn't there a historian in The Big Goodbye? This might have been the perfect person to be assigned to the survivors. Preparing for the encounter with the Romulans probably wouldn't have involve him.

Better choice than Troi.

Of course that might have resulted in the Ralph not being on the bridge to tell Picard and company what they were too obtuse to see.

 

[at Quark's]

Hmmmm… I'm not sure that saying "Of course, had <great statesman X> made his famous statement <Y> today, it would have ruined his career because of modern public opinion'' is necessarily condescending to the historical character. It could also be a criticism of how public opinion perhaps has become a bit too sensitive, or, even more neutral, simply an admission that this was a statement that belonged to a different time, and fit there, but not in ours.

I tend to see the same room for interpretation in "of course, the whole bunch of them would be booted out of Starfleet today ". I'd say the 'cowboy diplomacy' or the 'how long will it REALLY take' statements are more derogative.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Look at all the times the Enterprise arrives at a planet, and Picard want to talk to the planet's leader, and right away too.

It's the leader of an entire planet, if there's a major crisis I wonder if they might be busy?

Shouldn't Picard be talking to a deputy under-secretary, or someone from the local defense department?

Who does Picard think he is?Wasn't there a historian in The Big Goodbye? This might have been the perfect person to be assigned to the survivors. Preparing for the encounter with the Romulans probably wouldn't have involve him.

Better choice than Troi.

Of course that might have resulted in the Ralph not being on the bridge to tell Picard and company what they were too obtuse to see.

They weren't too obtuse to see it. Picard agreed with Ralph pretty much instantly. It was really just a way of proving to Ralph that Picard is actually a decent guy who knows what he's doing and not the cruise ship flunky Ralph was assuming him to be.

 

[Lance]

Hmmmm… I'm not sure that saying "Of course, had <great statesman X> made his famous statement <Y> today, it would have ruined his career because of modern public opinion'' is necessarily condescending to the historical character. It could also be a criticism of how public opinion perhaps has become a bit too sensitive, or, even more neutral, simply an admission that this was a statement that belonged to a different time, and fit there, but not in ours.

I tend to see the same room for interpretation in "of course, the whole bunch of them would be booted out of Starfleet today ". I'd say the 'cowboy diplomacy' or the 'how long will it REALLY take' statements are more derogative.

Agreed. There's also an implied irony in how often Janeway used to quote regulations and be a stickler for the rules, but she speaks that line with a certain sense of admiration, even declaring how much she would love to "ride shotgun" with them. Yes it takes a dig at the different attitudes of TOS vs TNG/VOY, but it's one of the occasions that does so almost with a sense of pride in TOS, and a kind of wistful wish that VOY's characters could ever be so big and bold as that.

 

[Commishsleer]

Even nice people aren't completely nice all the time, in all circumstances. People can be a little brusque or impatient when they mean no harm. Everyone got to know each other, and things worked out great. It really wasn't all that bad.

It was one of the early episodes of TNG and so you only get one chance to make a first impression.
So in my mind Riker is always a bit of an arrogant jerk - more so than I think he would be if I hadn't seen this episode.

Episodes ;ile Sub-Rosa and "That Which Survives" I just try to ignore because they're late in the series and I've already worked out whether I liked the characters or not by then.

Agreed. There's also an implied irony in how often Janeway used to quote regulations and be a stickler for the rules, but she speaks that line with a certain sense of admiration, even declaring how much she would love to "ride shotgun" with them. Yes it takes a dig at the different attitudes of TOS vs TNG/VOY, but it's one of the occasions that does so almost with a sense of pride in TOS, and a kind of wistful wish that VOY's characters could ever be so big and bold as that.

Yes Janeway's comments don't worry me.
Especially since IMO she plays it close to the line with the Prime Directive herself.

 

[flandry84]

It seems to me that when anyone mentions the Kirk era one of the first jokes they make is about the “wholesale redshirt slaughter”meme.
People tend to overlook the fact that quite a few of Picard’s crew got iced too (Wolf 359 not included).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The crew was a little patronizing. These passengers were lucky to get any attention at all

I like what the novelverse has since done with the 20th-century people. Claire Raymond works for the Department of Temporal Investigations, Sonny Clemonds is on a USO tour, and Ralph Offenhouse is Federation Secretary of Commerce.

So even if the Enterprise crew treated them like shit, the rest of the Federation didn't.

 

[Shawnster]

The biggest flaw with that ep is that nobody thought to call in Troi right away. What's the point of having a counselor on board if not to deal with situations like this? It never occurred to anyone that maybe these people would have a little trouble adjusting to the fact that they just woke up on a starship hundreds of years after their own time?

Troi should have been standing by to help them cope emotionally from Act 1.

This flaw is not exclusive to this episode. In both "The Bonding" and "Hero Worship" a child is left alone after the tragic and violent death of his family /mother. Only after a period of neglect does an Enterprise officer (Worf /Data) come to the child's aid. Even then both children fixate on their caregiver to the point of imitation.

The kid's mom just died. Why is he left alone in their quarters? He needs to be with someone. Even if he needs alone time, he can have that in his bedroom and still be with a caregiver in the same quarters.

Oh your mom just died? So sorry. Go stay alone in your apartment.

 

[Greg Cox]

It's as though early TNG was so invested in the idea that future people were more "evolved" that the show thought that future people shouldn't need grief counseling or whatever. But instead the crew just comes off as looking insensitive . . ..

Probably not what they intended.

 

[Makarov]

I think it just comes down to the nature of creating the show. Troi was needed on the bridge and if they put an extra as counselor with the 20th century people or the kids, that extra would likely need a speaking part and that would cost more than an extra wouldn't it?

And if they did have Troi in all those instances, wouldn't it kind of weaken the story? We're meant to see their growing frustration/grief.

I suppose they could have used Chief O'Brien in all these instances though

 

[Shawnster]

Troi wasn't really needed on the bridge. All she did was state the obvious.

At least make Troi a department head and give her staff. If the idea that more evolved humans were comfortable with counselors and therapy to the point a counselor was assigned a bridge position, then give the Enterprise a staff of counselors large enough to handle the workload.

In reality it was an oversight or unconscious blind spot. It'd been easy enough to have a no speaking extra and a line from Troi mentioning her staff was offering grief counseling and support.

 

[Commishsleer]

It's as though early TNG was so invested in the idea that future people were more "evolved" that the show thought that future people shouldn't need grief counseling or whatever. But instead the crew just comes off as looking insensitive . . ..

Probably not what they intended.

I think they made everyone else insensitive to make Data/Worf look good which worked for me but I think with better writing they could have done it without making everyone else look bad/incompetent.
I suppose its like the Wesley character(who personally I have no problem with) where to make Wesley look brilliant they just made everyone else look stupid. People blame the character but I blame the writer.
Wesley wasn't even being a genius when he tried to convince everyone that the cause of the latest wacky things that were happening aboard the Enterprise could be the mysterious strangers just beamed aboard. To me the writers making Riker such a pompous fool that he would not consider what Wesley had to say made Riker look bad. But the majority of people think that it made Wesley unlikeable

I think it just comes down to the nature of creating the show. Troi was needed on the bridge and if they put an extra as counselor with the 20th century people or the kids, that extra would likely need a speaking part and that would cost more than an extra wouldn't it?

And if they did have Troi in all those instances, wouldn't it kind of weaken the story? We're meant to see their growing frustration/grief.

I suppose they could have used Chief O'Brien in all these instances though

Plenty of times in TOS they foolishly let some stranger the run of the ship and they had to as much as they did in TNG or there wouldn't have been many stories if they had kept a guard on these strangers. But come on - leaving children to their own devices, telling Wesley off for saying keep an eye on the new guy.

 

[flandry84]

Why didn’t they plonk Offenhouse and co. down in front of their equivalent of the internet?
Surely there must be a “Welcome & intro to the Federation” video on board for first contact situations...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ They probably talked to the counseling staff on the Charleston on the way to Earth.

And they looked like resourceful people, really. Obviously Sonny Clemonds is gonna be happy if he can just play his music (and, equally obviously, there will always be demand for it). Claire gets to meet her descendants, and even Offenhouse is sharp enough to adapt.

Probably as soon as Offenhouse heard of the Ferengi, a light bulb went on in his head. Or maybe Federation officials came to HIM and suggested he'd be a perfect ambassador to Ferenginar (which he eventually becomes, prior to his appointment as Secretary of Commerce).