Did the 24th century shows get too insulting/condescending about TOS?

[JonnyQuest037]

However, if you really want insulting comments about the past all you have to do is look at TNG season one. The one that sticks out most for me is Riker's dismissive attitude towards 20th century humans in the episode, Neutral Zone.

Please don't get me started on that episode.

That scene where Sisko met Kirk wasn't even from "The Trouble With Tribbles." It's from "Mirror, Mirror" with Marlena removed and Sisko added.

Yeah, so?

That smug tone of voice, the oh-so-superior body language, and the smirk on Janeway's face just made me want to reach into the screen and slap it right off her.

Same.

Of all the post-TOS captains, the most Kirk-like of them is JANEWAY.

Agree to disagree. I'd put Sisko, Archer, and Picard before Janeway.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I was listening to the Mission Log podcast about "Q Who?" on my way home tonight, and the hosts were thinking that this exchange towards the end might've been a veiled reference to Kirk and his reluctance to surrender:

PICARD: Q. End this.
Q: Moi? What makes you think I am either inclined or capable to terminate this encounter?
PICARD: If we all die, here, now, you will not be able to gloat. You wanted to frighten us. We're frightened. You wanted to show us that we were inadequate. For the moment, I grant that. You wanted me to say I need you. I need you!
(With a snap of Q's fingers, the Enterprise goes whirling through space again)
RIKER: Position.
WESLEY: Zero seven zero, mark six three, sir. Back where we started.
(Q swaps places with Riker)
Q: That was a difficult admission. Another man would have been humiliated to say those words. Another man would have rather died than ask for help.

Seems like a reach to me. What do you folks think?

 

[Vger23]

Agree to disagree. I'd put Sisko, Archer, and Picard before Janeway.

Yeah, I gotta say that I agree. Sadly, Janeway never really did anything for me. I think Sisko is the most Kirk-like commmanding officer. He's still different, but he's the closest. Furthest is probably Picard. He was pretty much written as the anti-Kirk.

Captains:

Kirk
Sisko
Lorca
Archer
Picard
Janeway

 

[GNDN18]

I was listening to the Mission Log podcast about "Q Who?" on my way home tonight, and the hosts were thinking that this exchange towards the end might've been a veiled reference to Kirk and his reluctance to surrender:



Seems like a reach to me. What do you folks think?

Movie Kirk surrendered at the drop of a hat.

TV Kirk just played dead.

It’s a big reach, especially since there was nothing in that ep even remotely connected to TOS, let alone Kirk.

ETA Maybe they were thinking of Galaxy Quest.

 

[Timewalker]

Please don't get me started on that episode.

Yeah, so?

So this whole thing is always touted as DS9-meets-the-tribble-episode. It really isn't, since they used a scene from a different episode but have never, to my knowledge, admitted it (if there's an article somewhere that acknowledges using footage from "Mirror, Mirror" I would appreciate a link).

So it's dishonest.

Same.

Should I take it that you agree with me?

Agree to disagree. I'd put Sisko, Archer, and Picard before Janeway.

Why? What have they done that make them more like Kirk than Janeway? Specific examples, please.

Yeah, I gotta say that I agree. Sadly, Janeway never really did anything for me. I think Sisko is the most Kirk-like commmanding officer. He's still different, but he's the closest. Furthest is probably Picard. He was pretty much written as the anti-Kirk.

Captains:

Kirk
Sisko
Lorca
Archer
Picard
Janeway

As with the previous poster, please provide specific examples of what they did that make them Kirk-like.

And both of you... please keep in mind that it was Janeway who made the smug speech that Kirk and his crew would be booted out of 24th century Starfleet. This is a classic case of pot meeting kettle, since she's done so many of the same things Kirk did.

 

[MacLeod]

So this whole thing is always touted as DS9-meets-the-tribble-episode. It really isn't, since they used a scene from a different episode but have never, to my knowledge, admitted it (if there's an article somewhere that acknowledges using footage from "Mirror, Mirror" I would appreciate a link).

So it's dishonest.


Should I take it that you agree with me?


Why? What have they done that make them more like Kirk than Janeway? Specific examples, please.


As with the previous poster, please provide specific examples of what they did that make them Kirk-like.

And both of you... please keep in mind that it was Janeway who made the smug speech that Kirk and his crew would be booted out of 24th century Starfleet. This is a classic case of pot meeting kettle, since she's done so many of the same things Kirk did.

Surely you must realise that it's a case of it's ok for me to do things like that but it's not ok for others do that.

The Prime Directive of the 24th Century might not be exactly the same as that of the 23rd Century, and it can be all to easy to look back from the 24th century and judge the actions of those in the 23rd century in regards to the PD using a 24th century mind set.

 

[at Quark's]

Seems like a reach to me. What do you folks think?

I think so too. First of all, there's nothing to suggest Q had to do anything with Kirk, ever. Secondly, I'm not sure that description ('another man would have rather died...') is even applicable to Kirk. Kirk may be a swashbuckling 'cowboy' type of captain sometimes, but he is no fool and would not allow his pride and stubbornness to cost him the lives of his entire crew.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Seems like a reach to me. What do you folks think?

A Reed Richards reach.

 

[Vger23]

So this whole thing is always touted as DS9-meets-the-tribble-episode. It really isn't, since they used a scene from a different episode but have never, to my knowledge, admitted it (if there's an article somewhere that acknowledges using footage from "Mirror, Mirror" I would appreciate a link).

So it's dishonest.


Should I take it that you agree with me?


Why? What have they done that make them more like Kirk than Janeway? Specific examples, please.


As with the previous poster, please provide specific examples of what they did that make them Kirk-like.

And both of you... please keep in mind that it was Janeway who made the smug speech that Kirk and his crew would be booted out of 24th century Starfleet. This is a classic case of pot meeting kettle, since she's done so many of the same things Kirk did.

I'm not going to engage in a futile exercise with you so you stick it back in my face in whatever way suits you so you can prove yourself right. That's the "feel" I get, and have always believed. I put Janeway closer to Picard than Kirk, and since I feel Picard is the "antiKirk," that to me means she ain't like Kirk. It's just that simple for me.

 

[Vger23]

Surely you must realise that it's a case of it's ok for me to do things like that but it's not ok for others do that.

The Prime Directive of the 24th Century might not be exactly the same as that of the 23rd Century, and it can be all to easy to look back from the 24th century and judge the actions of those in the 23rd century in regards to the PD using a 24th century mind set.

It is most definitely "all too easy" since it seems that's all 24th Century Starfleet officers ever do is look back on prior centuries with judgement and smug superiority. I'm pretty sure that must be a capstone class at the academy!

 

[JonnyQuest037]

So this whole thing is always touted as DS9-meets-the-tribble-episode. It really isn't, since they used a scene from a different episode but have never, to my knowledge, admitted it (if there's an article somewhere that acknowledges using footage from "Mirror, Mirror" I would appreciate a link).

So it's dishonest.

98% of the TOS footage used in the episode was from "The Trouble With Tribbles." Kirk is even wearing the same green shirt in the (brief) footage from "MIrror, MIrror," so it's only noticeable if you know TOS really well. Were they not supposed to use footage that perfectly suited their purposes just because it was from a different episode? C'mon.

And the DS9 creators never hid this fact. They admitted it in Cinefantastique and other magazines at the time.

Why? What have they done that make them more like Kirk than Janeway? Specific examples, please.

I'm not doing homework for you just to convince you of my opinion. Just accept that I disagree with you. Vehemently.

 

[Timewalker]

I'm not going to engage in a futile exercise with you so you stick it back in my face in whatever way suits you so you can prove yourself right. That's the "feel" I get, and have always believed. I put Janeway closer to Picard than Kirk, and since I feel Picard is the "antiKirk," that to me means she ain't like Kirk. It's just that simple for me.

So you prefer to ignore evidence and go with what you "feel"? I hope you're not employed in some capacity in either the medical field or in the justice system in RL.

98% of the TOS footage used in the episode was from "The Trouble With Tribbles." Kirk is even wearing the same green shirt in the (brief) footage from "MIrror, MIrror," so it's only noticeable if you know TOS really well. Were they not supposed to use footage that perfectly suited their purposes just because it was from a different episode? C'mon.

Whether the viewer "knows TOS really well" or not, the fact is that the Sisko-meets-Kirk scene is actually from "Mirror, Mirror" instead of "The Trouble With Tribbles." If they wanted Sisko to meet Kirk, why not stick him in the lineup after the bar fight?

And the DS9 creators never hid this fact. They admitted it in Cinefantastique and other magazines at the time.

Right, because every Trek fan read Cinefantastique. By that time Starlog and the other magazines were far too expensive in Canada so I'd quit buying them long before. I think I might have two or three issues of Cinefantastique... at a conservative estimate. And none of them would have been as recent as DS9.

I'm not doing homework for you just to convince you of my opinion. Just accept that I disagree with you. Vehemently.

If that's all the support you're willing to give your own argument, I guess that means I win.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Whether the viewer "knows TOS really well" or not, the fact is that the Sisko-meets-Kirk scene is actually from "Mirror, Mirror" instead of "The Trouble With Tribbles." If they wanted Sisko to meet Kirk, why not stick him in the lineup after the bar fight?

I fail to see any kind of point here.

Right, because every Trek fan read Cinefantastique. By that time Starlog and the other magazines were far too expensive in Canada so I'd quit buying them long before.

Right, because your personal experience was the experience of every other Trek fan.

If that's all the support you're willing to give your own argument, I guess that means I win.

If you're going to be this obnoxious, I guess I'm adding you to my block list.

 

[1001001]

@Timewalker Your entire post seems unnecessarily combative.

This particular part:

So you prefer to ignore evidence and go with what you "feel"? I hope you're not employed in some capacity in either the medical field or in the justice system in RL.

is a clear and obvious personal attack not allowed on this board.

Consider this a "friendly" warning. Please don't do it again, or you'll get a formal one.

Carry on.

 

[1001001]

If you're going to be this obnoxious, I guess I'm adding you to my block list.

That's no good either. Consider this your "friendly" as well.

Let's please stay on topic, or I'll have to close the thread.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

That's no good either. Consider this your "friendly" as well.

Let's please stay on topic, or I'll have to close the thread.

It's over and done with as far as I'm concerned. I won't be dealing with Timewalker again.

 

[suarezguy]

I was listening to the Mission Log podcast about "Q Who?" on my way home tonight, and the hosts were thinking that this exchange towards the end might've been a veiled reference to Kirk and his reluctance to surrender

Maybe, even probably. More likely it was the show arguing that the protagonist being willing to do so is very rare throughout entertainment (and, in-universe, most of humanity), including or especially Picard's predecessor, and that is a way of arguing TNG/Picard *is* better than the predecessor without really attacking the predecessor. Challenging the predecessor character or series isn't insulting it, certainly no more than the idea from TWoK that some scenarios Kirk could only win by "cheating."

 

[Shawnster]

Here's all the references to the 23rd century:
The Outrageous Okona - Stano Riga, who "specialised in jokes about quantum mathematics."
Violations - Iresine Syndrome, first diagnosed that century
If Wishes Were Horses - subspace rupture in the Hanoli System in the mid twenty third century.
Trials and Tribble-ations - Dax likes the 23rd century designs of tricorders, etc; by the end of the 23rd century, tribbles had become extinct from their homeworld
Flashback - Hikaru Sulu doesn't resemble his Starfleet HQ portrait because "holographic imaging resolution was less accurate."
Cause and Effect - Bateson thinks it's still 2278.

I'm confused. Are we listing all references to TOS or dialog that specifically mentions 23rd Century?

I was listening to the Mission Log podcast about "Q Who?" on my way home tonight, and the hosts were thinking that this exchange towards the end might've been a veiled reference to Kirk and his reluctance to surrender:



Seems like a reach to me. What do you folks think?

Stretch beyond recovery.

TOS Kirk even told Edith Keeler "let me help" were more important than "I love you" according to a poet. Kirk wasn't above asking for help except for dealing with personal demons like in "Obsession."

 

[BillJ]

It was Michael's wedding. The name confuses people.

Didn't Picard say he was there? It would be odd not to be able to tell that Michael Burnham is a woman. Perhaps he needed some Retinax 5?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

TOS Kirk even told Edith Keeler "let me help" were more important than "I love you" according to a poet. Kirk wasn't above asking for help except for dealing with personal demons like in "Obsession."

Excellent point!