Did the 24th century shows get too insulting/condescending about TOS?

[Paradise City]

There's no conscious disparaging of TOS.

Janeway's reference in Flashback is just bungled and clumsy & not an intentional insult. The remark is to praise TOS and have us associate it favourably with the wild west era. And, while, the episode was far from ideal, I actually liked they made some effort at a tribute to the movies. .

"Cowboy diplomacy" is just an elegant way of highlighting what Spock was doing and the immense frustration felt by Federation brass. The guy appears on Romulus without warning anyone! Spock has always been something of an eccentric particularly since TMP and STIV and this is an amplification of that characterisation.

The temporal investigators are themselves plodding types; an insult from them isn't a bad reflection on Kirk per say.

The idea that Mirror Spock heralded in a new dark age of enslavement is definitely the creators playing fast & loose with the source material.

They had to trowel on the unsentimental attitude of the TNG crew and Scott's own isolation to heighten the poignancy later on in the Relics episode. I don't remember any interview with the creators that they didn't say they weren't moved by it. Scott having fun with his repair estimates aren't mutually exclusive with him being a top engineer.

TOS is aloof from 90s TV and there's an understandable and a necessary need not to be creatively tethered to the 60s series. It's not that they were insecure about TOS as a competitor or something.

A negative consequence of that is, TOS isn't studied closely so when renditions/references of TOS are made, its more Kirk as he's remembered in mass culture - as an order breaking, irresponsible maverick - than the fairly diligent captain we do see on the series.

Of course, a minor qualification to that is that Kirk is best remembered for breaking orders in-universe when he steals the Enterprise to go after Spock on Genesis resulting in a chain of events that saw him "save earth". These do seem to be the crowning and the most memorable achievements in Kirk's life especially given his closeness to Spock. Perhaps it's these events that Janeway remembers. Kirk was obviously stitched up in TUC but he did get into trouble in that film too.

Kirk's reputation as something of a trouble maker might also reasonably if somewhat unjustly emerge from these events.

 

[Greg Cox]

There's no conscious disparaging of TOS.

Janeway's reference in Flashback is just bungled and clumsy & not an intentional insult. The remark is to praise TOS and have us associate it favourably with the wild west era. And, while, the episode was far from ideal, I actually liked they made some effort at a tribute to the movies. .

"Cowboy diplomacy" is just an elegant way of highlighting what Spock was doing and the immense frustration felt by Federation brass. The guy appears on Romulus without warning anyone! Spock has always been something of an eccentric particularly since TMP and STIV and this is an amplification of that characterisation.

The temporal investigators are themselves plodding types; an insult from them isn't a bad reflection on Kirk per say.

The idea that Mirror Spock heralded in a new dark age of enslavement is definitely the creators playing fast & loose with the source material.

They had to trowel on the unsentimental attitude of the TNG crew and Scott's own isolation to heighten the poignancy later on in the Relics episode. I don't remember any interview with the creators that they didn't say they weren't moved by it. Scott having fun with his repair estimates aren't mutually exclusive with him being a top engineer.

TOS is aloof from 90s TV and there's an understandable and a necessary need not to be creatively tethered to the 60s series. It's not that they were insecure about TOS as a competitor or something.

A negative consequence of that is, TOS isn't studied closely so when renditions/references of TOS are made, its more Kirk as he's remembered in mass culture - as an order breaking, irresponsible maverick - than the fairly diligent captain we do see on the series.

Of course, a minor qualification to that is that Kirk is best remembered for breaking orders in-universe when he steals the Enterprise to go after Spock on Genesis resulting in a chain of events that saw him "save earth". These do seem to be the crowning and the most memorable achievements in Kirk's life especially given his closeness to Spock. Perhaps it's these events that Janeway remembers. Kirk was obviously stitched up in TUC but he did get into trouble in that film too.

Kirk's reputation as something of a trouble maker might also reasonably if somewhat unjustly emerge from these events.

Good point. It's not like people a hundred years in the future are going to be intimately familiar with every moment of Kirk's five year mission. But a Starfleet officer hijacking a starship, and the huge impact of the Genesis Device . . . yeah, that's the kind of thing that's going still be talked about a century later, long after the events of, say, "A Private Little War" or "Miri" have been consigned to dusty records and biographies.

I mean, how many people know anything about Paul Revere except his famous ride?

 

[XCV330]

I mean, how many people know anything about Paul Revere except his famous ride?

A fine colonial artist and silversmith.

Also he slowly killed billions of people over a drawn out 10 year period because he THOUGHT that another species might overtake them on an evolutionary scale, though he never bothered to actually vet this by any institutions or anything.. no wait that was Archer. Archer is a douche. I can only imagine he messed with records after becoming president so the full scale of his douchebaggery was never brought to light.

Every captain of a ship named Enterprise going forward had to live that down. April probably went mad over it. He started affecting a fake British accent. Pike; trying not to be like Archer was always in the back of his mind. His parents told him when he got the ship "We're proud of you son. Just don't be like that douchebag Archer. This is the 23rd century. A lot of people are going to be looking up to you."

The strain caused him stress. He couldn't enjoy commanding a starship or deciding who lives and who dies. Finally his subtle mistakes and ended his grevious tormented anti-Archer existance in a mobile box with a blinkenlight. But at least he wasn't Archer.

Only Kirk broke the curse of Archer. His swashbuckling do-goodedness set a new course for the Federation. It would be Kirk people would talk about a century later. By the 24th century no one even mentioned Archer at all. All his memoriabilia, the NX-01, and his stuffed prized Beagle were crated, inventoried and forgotten. It would be Kirk and the 1701 people wanted to emulate. But they couldn't. They could envy but they could not recreate the magic.

 

[Tim Thomason]

I always found Janeway's line to be a little patronizing. Kirk's actual official Captain's log would have had a lot more information on Flint than just "Today I met Leonardo Da Vinci. End log."

Perhaps over the years all the details got lost in the public consciousness.

Kor

Kirk didn't mention da Vinci in his official log, because he told Flint he would keep his (previous) immortality a secret. Only three people knew of it: Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. Spock also said he'd keep it a secret, so I guess McCoy blabbed to somebody in a drunken stupor.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

All his memoriabilia, the NX-01, and his stuffed prized Beagle were crated, inventoried and forgotten.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The number of times he does it in TOS is debatable. 'Amok Time' definitely sees him disobey an order (again like TSFS he does it for Spock),

Yeah, and there he gets off the hook because 1) It was largely a ceremonial thing, and 2) T'Pau went to bat for him.

but the open question is how many of his decisions to interfere with events on other worlds were examples of bending the rules?

I'd argue not too many. They generally seemed to interpret the Prime Directive more loosely in Kirk's day.

if the Prime Directive is a rule then yes he does it a few times, but if it's more of a guideline that Kirk is simply interpreting

The TNG era shows definitely show the Captains getting instructions directly from Earth much more often. TOS showed Kirk often days away from communicating with Earth, so Kirk was left much more to his own devices. But the implication was that he was the man in the center seat because Starfleet trusted his judgement.

A negative consequence of that is, TOS isn't studied closely so when renditions/references of TOS are made, its more Kirk as he's remembered in mass culture - as an order breaking, irresponsible maverick - than the fairly diligent captain we do see on the series.

Yeah, that's my big problem. They're writing to the stereotypes rather than what Kirk & TOS actually were like.

For me, the worst example of this was the Trek/Legion of Super-Heroes crossover that had Kirk hitting on Shadow Lass in the middle of a firefight. That's Zap Brannigan, not Captain James T. Kirk.

 

[Kor]

Kirk didn't mention da Vinci in his official log, because he told Flint he would keep his (previous) immortality a secret. Only three people knew of it: Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. Spock also said he'd keep it a secret, so I guess McCoy blabbed to somebody in a drunken stupor.

That makes sense. I didn't remember some of those details; haven't seen RFM in a while, as I don't often revisit the third season.

Kor

 

[Lance]

Yeah, and there he gets off the hook because 1) It was largely a ceremonial thing, and 2) T'Pau went to bat for him.

I'd argue not too many. They generally seemed to interpret the Prime Directive more loosely in Kirk's day.

The TNG era shows definitely show the Captains getting instructions directly from Earth much more often. TOS showed Kirk often days away from communicating with Earth, so Kirk was left much more to his own devices. But the implication was that he was the man in the center seat because Starfleet trusted his judgement.

Yeah, that's my big problem. They're writing to the stereotypes rather than what Kirk & TOS actually were like.

For me, the worst example of this was the Trek/Legion of Super-Heroes crossover that had Kirk hitting on Shadow Lass in the middle of a firefight. That's Zap Brannigan, not Captain James T. Kirk.

Absolutely. Kirk wasn't above romancing alien women, but even then a good 90% of the time it was a meaningful liason for both of them, not just some fling, and he'd certainly never have been unprofessional about it.

Maybe only Shahna, Kelinda and Deela were examples of him romancing for other reasons...

 

[Jayson1]

Kirk's reputation often comes from the bigger than life way he was written and how Shatner played him. Shatner's line stealing and always wanted to be shown in a heroic mode actually worked in helping make the character as iconic as he was, even if it pissed off the other actors.

Jason

 

[F. King Daniel]

I actually liked that line, since it was a cute callback to "Requiem for Methuselah," and I'm amused by the idea that some of Kirk's more far-fetched adventures are now regarded with some skepticism.

Said the women who met Amilia Earheart in the Delta Quadrant

 

[johnnybear]

Kirk didn't mention da Vinci in his official log, because he told Flint he would keep his (previous) immortality a secret. Only three people knew of it: Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. Spock also said he'd keep it a secret, so I guess McCoy blabbed to somebody in a drunken stupor.

Which proves it was lazy writing in VOY...again!
JB

 

[Greg Cox]

Which proves it was lazy writing in VOY...again!
JB

Not necessarily. Let's be honest here. If they hadn't mention "Requiem" when VOYAGER went back to Da Vinci, fans would have complained. Personally, I appreciated the tip of the hat to TOS.

It's also very possible that that Kirk and the others respected Flint's secret until after he died, after which there was less need to protect his privacy.

 

[johnnybear]

Yes, they did say they would keep his secret and despite his immortality only being active while he was on earth, I still don't see Kirk violating that trust even after death to be honest!
JB

 

[Greg Cox]

Absolutely. Kirk wasn't above romancing alien women, but even then a good 90% of the time it was a meaningful liason for both of them, not just some fling, and he'd certainly never have been unprofessional about it.

Maybe only Shahna, Kelinda and Deela were examples of him romancing for other reasons...

See also Sylvia for "Catspaw," Lenore (at first he's just using her to get close to her father), and even Miranda Jones, who he tries and fails to distract with his masculine charms.

 

[johnnybear]

Funny when you think that Droxine was oblivious to Kirk's charms because she was drawn to Spock! Even her Father thought she was smitten with Jimmy boy!
JB

 

[Greg Cox]

Yes, they did say they would keep his secret and despite his immortality only being active while he was on earth, I still don't see Kirk violating that trust even after death to be honest!
JB

I don't know. It's not uncommon for people to put the truth on record once the principals involved are past caring. I mean, we now know who "Deep Throat" was, even though this secret was guarded for a generation. And I've read plenty of Sherlock Holmes novels that begin with Watson explaining that only now, many years after the fact, can this case finally be told to the world . . . .

 

[GNDN18]

I don't know. It's not uncommon for people to put the truth on record once the principals involved are past caring. I mean, we now know who "Deep Throat" was, even though this secret was guarded for a generation. And I've read plenty of Sherlock Holmes novels that begin with Watson explaining that only now, many years after the fact, can this case finally be told to the world . . . .

Generally speaking, any privacy interest or privilege perishes with the holder. So, in Flint’s case, any agreement to keep his identity confidential ended upon his death.

At least that’s the way it is in the 21st century.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I mean, how many people know anything about Paul Revere except his famous ride?

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[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Perhaps over the years all the details got lost in the public consciousness.

She read it a long time ago and doesn't recall the details. It got lost in her head amid all the other Starfleet Academy lessons, her career, etc.

When is Kirk/his crew referred to in a glowing light?

We get a name drop for McCoy's medical textbook, "Comparative Alien Physiology", apparently still a go-to 100 or so years later.

EDIT: Found this quote in another thread. Tuvok both praises Spock and admits to his own incorrect beliefs. So that's a slam dunk.

TUVOK: When I was a young man, a great visionary named Spock recommended an alliance between the Federation and the Klingon empire. This produced a major dispute. The Klingons, after all, were outlaws, employing violence and brutality in order to build their empire. I myself spoke out against such a coalition. But the alliance was forged and it brought a stability to the quadrant that had not been there for two hundred years. Spock's suggestion, so controversial at first, proved to be the cornerstone of peace.

 

[UnknownSample]

Later Trek did a good job of treating TOS as part of their history, but no more and no less than any other part of history. This helped make things believable. I did get the impression,though, that they were underwhelmed by TOS and thought they were making a silk purse out of a sow's ear, or something. Maybe they had to do that for believability. If they'd heaped praise on the characters and missions of TOS, it would have narrowed the Trek universe a little. I can't think how to explain what I mean by that...
---
The first mention of Kirk I remember is when Kira? read out some account of his discovery of the mirror universe, and Bashir says "Oh yes, the transporter accident!" Suggesting this one event is the only thing Kirk is popularly known for! That's much more satisfying than for Bashir's eyes to fill with wonder as he goes on about how amazing Kirk was!