Did TATV show a contempt for the characters and actors?

[Voth commando1]

Maybe a DVD special edition sort of thing

Where all the Trek captains get on stage flanked by the supporting cast members give speeches answer final questions, talking about Trek and its positiv e influence on people's lives and society as a whole with TOS through enterprise playing in the background themes then giving a classic bow. I think if I had seen that I would have broken into tears.

 

[Prax]

I mean the actors

Me too. So without their spacesuits on.

 

[Voth commando1]

Me too. So without their spacesuits on.

I guess they could wear their standard uniforms on stage.

 

[tomswift2002]

Okay so TATV which I haven't watched just yet is near universally maligned but Trek fandom. I vaguely understand its premise with the whole holedeck/Pegasus thing and Archer's speech and Trip's death.

While these parts were certainly controversial can someone explain to me how they demonstrate a hatred the writers had more the characters/actors/fans/show?

Brannon-Braga really tried to jam a completely different story into an already great TNG episode. But with Enterprise, it really added confusion. In the six years since "Terra Prime" neither Mayweather or Sato got promoted to Lieutenant? No one has aged? I don't know about you, but when I look at photos of myself or even other people from 6 years in the past, I can usually see some aging.

Also what was up with the stupid name tags on the uniforms? Did everyone get dementia in the 6 years that they needed to have name badges?

But the holodeck angle really put the whole series into question. If the last episode was on the holodeck, then was the entire series nothing more than a holodeck recreation that was created or written by someone who also took dramatic license and changed a number of thing?

 

[Will M.]

True. It takes more than a scepter to rule

That's such a great line.
I enjoy historical fiction also even where I know the facts have been changed so long as the facts are still plausible to me. Like the HBO series "Rome" (Killed way before its time) ; Verenus and Pollo were actually high ranking essentially enlisted Centurions in the Legions. Having them both be lower ranking with one a closet pompeian but being best friends was done for the story. It's certainly not true to history but it did make for good story telling. The Tudors on Showtime pulled out one of Henry's daughters changed a couple other figures as well. Again, good story telling good show historical fiction. Those are different though, even though I knew Pollo and Verenus were not the actual men described their actions and advancement seemed logical; ditto the actions of Henry in Tudors where the storyline consolidated issues with his sisters into a single character.

I know plenty of people who didn't have a problem with, on the other hand my personal associates from the "old veterans" who have service backgrounds found it at a minimum distracting and I'd say the bulk couldn't stand it.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Indeed! A movie is not at all the same thing as a documentary and if you go into a movie with the mindset that this is "how it was" you're going to be in for one hell of a disappointment, should you make an experiment of comparing the film with Historical facts. But, somehow, that's alright to treat Real Life people like characters. Audiences expect it. And yet, there's this curiously odd expectation Trekkies have, in particular, to treat STAR TREK like a documentary. They get most annoyed when canon is not adhered to, or characterisation is thrown away, for the sake of a line, or a pivotal moment.

Like, with me, for instance ... I chortle when Cochrane observes in First Contact, "... so, you're all astronauts on some kind of STAR TREK!" I hate that line so frigging bad, because it's breaking The Fourth Wall, where its completely inappropriate to do so. If, say, as Troi's explaining the Historical significance of what he's about to do, Cochrane turns to the camera -- where no other character would be -- looks directly at it as if to say to us in the audience, "... and they expect us to buy this shit?" To me, at least ...

Something like that works. So, it's not like I uniformly accept this or that, or not ... I guess its in the presentation and delivery. But that kind of shit is never subtle, because audiences are always just assumed to be mentally challenged, for whatever reason. Gotta make damn SURE these simpletons KNOW we made that joke ... that in-reference! Why it's so important to them to do so, I've never quite figured out, in the first instance ...

But TATV would've probably benefitted from a Title Card, at the beginning, that spelled it out, "We, the producers of STAR TREK, would like to present this non-canonical episode, as a fun way to end the series ..." Then ALL of this hatred would've gone right down Mr. Toilet and it would probably have been appreciated for the enjoyable romp it actually is. Hell, even DS9's pilot episode had a bullshit title card at the very beginning of it, to spell everything out for us commoners ...

 

[Voth commando1]

Where all the Trek captains get on stage flanked by the supporting cast members give speeches answer final questions, talking about Trek and its positiv e influence on people's lives and society as a whole with TOS through enterprise playing in the background themes then giving a classic bow. I think if I had seen that I would have broken into tears.

What does everyone think of that sort of finale?

 

[Balok's Decoy]

Where all the Trek captains get on stage flanked by the supporting cast members give speeches answer final questions, talking about Trek and its positiv e influence on people's lives and society as a whole with TOS through enterprise playing in the background themes then giving a classic bow. I think if I had seen that I would have broken into tears.

What does everyone think of that sort of finale?

Given that an ENT cast discussion at a convention was what got me to start watching ENT, this idea appeals to me. But I think it would be seen as an epilogue, or a special add-on at the end of a series, and not really a "finale," per se.

 

[Prax]

Given that an ENT cast discussion at a convention was what got me to start watching ENT, this idea appeals to me. But I think it would be seen as an epilogue, or a special add-on at the end of a series, and not really a "finale," per se.

TATV was meant as an epilogue, and a special add-on. Terra Prime was intended to be the show finale.

 

[Voth commando1]

TATV was meant as an epilogue, and a special add-on. Terra Prime was intended to be the show finale.

What do you think of my convention finale?

 

[Prax]

What do you think of my convention finale?

It would have been nice. Would you rather have a convention finale, or an additional "regular" episode during the season?

 

[Voth commando1]

It would have been nice. Would you rather have a convention finale, or an additional "regular" episode during the season?

Maybe a convention setting but put into a DVD extra?

 

[Balok's Decoy]

TATV was meant as an epilogue, and a special add-on. Terra Prime was intended to be the show finale.

Really? I didn't know that. Is this just how fans view it or was this the stated purpose of the production and writers?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Stated purpose - if only after the fact - as I believe as been noted at least once on this thread.

 

[Prax]

Really? I didn't know that. Is this just how fans view it or was this the stated purpose of the production and writers?

There's an ENT podcast called "Warp 5" and Manny Coto is on Episode 100. He says, and I'm paraphrasing "When we were finishing up the show, it was always intended that Terra Prime was Enterprise's finale and that's how I wrote it. Rick wanted to make a sort of 'swan song' as his goodbye to the franchise"

 

[Balok's Decoy]

There's an ENT podcast called "Warp 5" and Manny Coto is on Episode 100. He says, and I'm paraphrasing "When we were finishing up the show, it was always intended that Terra Prime was Enterprise's finale and that's how I wrote it. Rick wanted to make a sort of 'swan song' as his goodbye to the franchise"

Interesting! A good bit of info and you turned me onto another podcast. Thanks!

 

[2takesfrakes]

Where all the Trek captains get on stage flanked by the supporting cast members give speeches answer final questions, talking about Trek and its positiv e influence on people's lives and society as a whole with TOS through enterprise playing in the background themes then giving a classic bow. I think if I had seen that I would have broken into tears.

What does everyone think of that sort of finale?

... I think it would've been sweet!

I'm a huge fan of These Are The Voyages and it's never let me down. It entertains and it's fun and I suspect that having the Trek Captains converge on the ending of the show would've buttoned the franchise up much more nicely than that "Space ... the final frontier" montage did. I mean it's "OK" for what it is, but it's no big shakes, really. Having the Captains together and united and dishing out their positive vibes would've been a nice sendoff.

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool TNG fan, so I've already gotten what I want out of this franchise. The rest is just trim, you know what I'm saying? Garland around the Xmas Tree, if you like. Or the cherry on the sundae kind of an attitude. But it's all good. And we'll never see STAR TREK like that, again. Never again. So, having them all there for a quick salute, at the end ... makes perfect sense to me. Wish they would've done it ....

 

[Voth commando1]

Imagine Shatner, Stewart, Mulgrew, Brooks, Bakula, flanked by all the main casts from their shows, Nimoy, Frakes, Beltran(or maybe Mccneil), Auberjonois, Visitor, Siddig, McFadden, Ryan, Blalock, and all the main cast basically. You have TOS through Enterprise theme songs.

You have a series of speeches, final questions,

And then a class bow with faith of the heart in the background?

 

[2takesfrakes]

Speeches, even containing verbosity we want to hear, are generally very boring and I would resist allowing their inclusion. Also, Q&A sessions frequently involve typical "expected" back and forth and rarely contain new or truly interesting tidbits. "What was it like to be involved in the 1st Interracial Kiss on television?" and "how did you come up with the Vulcan salute?" -- again and again, over and over. This, too, I would strongly resist.

On the other hand, having a STAR TREK Special would've really hit the spot. Promoted as a "live" Trekkie Convention, with ALL of the franchise greats in it, yacking at an audience dressed in full STAR TREK regalia would probably work out, well. But it would have to be handled "just-so," as it milked every last drop of nostalgia. I'm for the idea! But outside of an emotional bath, it would be pretty "thin," for the most part ...

 

[suarezguy]

I think contempt is probably putting it too strongly but I think the writers did have a lot of bitterness, subconsciously or consciously, in general and it extended to the characters and fans.

While these parts were certainly controversial can someone explain to me how they demonstrate a hatred the writers had more the characters/actors/fans/show?

There's no real explanation as to why Trip and T'Pol didn't get/stay together, as if they were just afraid to and/or Berman and Braga disliked the idea.
Trip dies in an underwhelming way, most fans think he could have easily found an alternative. BTW, it's interesting that Braga had wanted to kill off Seven of Nine, a character he really liked, in the Voyager finale.
It shows the characters aside from Archer and T'Pol as unaffected by Trip's death, instead complaining about their seats.
Troi laughing at how primitive the old ship seems.
It (pretty much) ends with Riker saying he got what he needed so ending the program.
Reed toasts "Here's to the next generation."-Not expressing contempt for the show but quite a bit of fondness and nostalgia for the other show.

Why would the writers hate fans who wrote so many kind words about the show on the infranet during its run?

LOL. I think Berman and Braga were particularly bitter that a lot of the fans gave credit for what they liked to the actors or Coto, commonly hearing that "It got good after the first two seasons" or "It's finally gotten good."