Did Starfleet discontinue building Galaxy-class?
- Thread starter Cadet49
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Then again, that beam never was a phaser, not in dialogue. It was some sort of a benevolent "energy beam" to revigorate the space jellyfish - perhaps the Starfleet equivalent of those USN underway replenishment rigs you see on warships, those amidship transverse cranes that allow a ship to manipulate a fuel line or a transfer basket? A Starfleet vessel might traditionally have equivalent gear at the bottom of the saucer, classically a busily greebled location from the TOS movies onwards.
We might even argue that he desired a location from which he could fire directly at the specific piece of equipment that the Children of Tama were using for holding Picard prisoner, without having to ask Riker to maneuver the Enterprise first in a way that would reveal the cunning plan of attack...
Although I'm sure this one will be altered in the redoing of the episode, too.
Timo Saloniemi
We might even argue that he desired a location from which he could fire directly at the specific piece of equipment that the Children of Tama were using for holding Picard prisoner, without having to ask Riker to maneuver the Enterprise first in a way that would reveal the cunning plan of attack...
Although I'm sure this one will be altered in the redoing of the episode, too.
Timo Saloniemi
Right, and so who can all our so called tactical experts here think could do better?
Worf? He tried to ram the Defiant into the Cube out of desparation even though he had help from other ships.
How about the 39 other captains that lost their ship/lives in Worf 359?
The Reliant being newer or not is not relevant here, as it is clearly not anywhere near the level of V'ger, everyone knows that.
The point is Kirk managed to stop such a superior threat that was V'ger and the Enterprise was unscathed, yet 12 years later his ship was battered and bruised from something far less threating.
So are we saying Kirk is a shitty commander? Because the same reasoning is being used on Riker.
Knight Templar
Commodore
The Enterprise under Kirk did not engage V'ger in combat in any way so your comparison is useless.
Interesting. I guess I'll have to refer to the TNG-R and original TNG FX when describing events just like TOS and TOS-R
Oh, one more for differences in continuities - the TNG-R E-D has red bussards in the first episode instead of purple http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/encounteratfarpoint.htm
@Timo - in dialogue it was stated as coming from the main phasers. We just now have one TNG continuity firing from the central point and another from the ventral phaser strip
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Why I don't think the Galaxy class would cease production just because of the introduction of the Sovereign class:
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Don't be silly. Princess Cruises would never know what to do with a ship so sturdy and stately as the Galaxy class. They do cruise ships; the Galaxy class is more akin to an ocean liner. Princess Cruises would just take some leftover Sydney-class starships.
If the Galaxy class were to be sold to a liner service, they'd get sold to Cunard Line, operator of the world's only remaining serving ocean liner, the RMS Queen Mary 2. They'd know how to handle an amazing starship class like the Galaxy.
Why's that? The Galaxy class is still an immensely powerful ship class, and we know for a fact that by the early 2370s, most Galaxy-class starships had been refit to include newer, more advanced -- and just plain more -- weaponry. In addition, their large spaceframes make them ideal for cargo and personnel transport, and allow for the installation of more weapons systems if need be. And that's to say nothing of the value of a Galaxy-class starship if your mission involves evacuating large numbers of people.
... you seem to mis-understand the plot to "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost." It was an homage to Seven Days in May, and in it, Admiral Leyton is plotting a coup d'etat against the Federation government, not against Starfleet.
No. The U.S.S. Defiant was an advanced starship with a length of 119.5 meters, beam of 90.3 meters, height of 25.5 meters, and a crew compliment of 50 persons. In addition, her power output equaled that of a Galaxy-class starship. Hardly a "glorified shuttle craft."
1. Brannon Braga never worked on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
2. Rick Berman, by Season Four, had stepped back from day-to-day running on DSN and handed over showrunner duties to Ira Steven Behr.
3. Just exactly who do you think would have stopped Rick Berman if he had wanted Constitution-class starships to appear on DSN? He was the head guy of the franchise. It wasn't like some suit at Paramount would give a shit about that.
Leyton never planned on having a fight in the first place. He planned to overthrow the President and Council and put himself up as military dictator of the Federation, and to have it be a fiat accompli. Think Buenos Aires in 1976, not Santiago in 1973.
No, because TrekLit has established that slipstream technology is such that only ships with relatively narrow profiles can utilize the technology. You'd need a ship with a very narrow beam, such as an Intrepid-class starship or a Vesta-class starship, for the slipstream drive to work safely. Galaxy-class beams are far too large.
Besides, the Federation is mostly busy trying to rebuild after the Borg Invasion. Galaxy class starships, with their capacity to transport large numbers of refugees, serve as ad hoc hospital ships, provide industrial replication services, and to serve other humanitarian purposed, would by definition be vital to that effort.
Many things.
You do yourself no favors by describing the thematic content of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine in dishonest, inaccurate terms. A casual viewing of episodes such as "Emissary," "Duet," "In the Hands of the Prophets," "Cardassians," "The Maquis," "The Wire," "Past Tense," "Improbable Cause"/"The Die is Cast," "The Visitor," "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost," "Hard Time," "For the Uniform," "Dr. Bashir, I Presume?," "Rocks and Shoals," "Statistical Probabilities," "Waltz," "Far Beyond the Stars," "Honor Among Thieves," "Inquisition," "In the Pale Moonlight," "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges," and "What You Leave Behind" make it clear that Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was far deeper than just space battles and action sequences.
DSN was essentially about taking Roddenberry's concept of a brighter future for humanity, deconstructing it, picking away at its flaws, and then putting it back together and reaffirming it. It's about questioning things, being skeptical, but then reaffirming their value. It's about how a truly more advanced society would act to preserve itself when facing more realistic pressures than we would tend to see on TNG.
There's nothing wrong with that. Just like there's nothing wrong with stories that emphasize the adventure of exploration and optimism first. Both are fully compatible with Star Trek's vision of a brighter future -- because, while DSN questioned that vision, it ultimately reaffirms it.
You are once again resorting to inaccuracies in your description of DSN's content. The Defiant was never established to be "mysteriously more dangerous than any larger ship in the ST universe." It was established to have power output on par with the Galaxy class, but also to have serious technical problems -- she was described as almost shaking herself apart the first time she went to warp. Further, we saw plenty of scenarios in which the Defiant class was evenly matched or outmatched by other ships, including "Starship Down," "Valiant," and "The Changing Face of Evil." For all that you're complaining about the Defiant being in some way depicted as omnipotent, the fact is that she was destroyed on DSN -- which is more than could be said for the Enterprise-D on TNG or Voyager on VOY.
The problem with this line of thought is that it relies on the assumption that the conflicting party is not the aggressor and can be reasoned with. But it is a fact of life that, sometimes, on rare occasion, nation-states embrace imperialism. That it required the use of armed force to stop Nazi Germany does not call into doubt the morality of the Allied Powers; it demonstrates that Nazi Germany had fully embraced aggression and imperialism and refused to be reasoned or negotiated with. Same thing with the Borg and the Dominion.
And for all that you complain about the idea that maybe there would be some scenarios in which the Federation would have to resort to force, bear in mind that the Federation did not fire the first shot in this war; that the Federation refused to rejoice in Cardassian deaths; that the Federation willingly embraced the Cardassians as friends and allies once they rejected Dominion oppression; and that the Federation made it clear it wanted to peacefully coexist with the Dominion, Cardassians, and Breen again after the war.
Neither of which is applicable when a hostile foreign state is building up an armada to invade and occupy your territory and has already demonstrated that it is unpersuaded by the mere threat of violence. In such a situation, the only options are capitulation or retaliation.
Personally, I think the S.S. Vico was a civilian vessel that had been purchased from Starfleet, but that's just me.
I imagine that the loss of life suffered even by ships posted to the core Federation worlds as a result of the Battle of Wolf 359 would have prompted Starfleet to re-examine its policies of allowing families aboard.
* * *
Don't be silly. Princess Cruises would never know what to do with a ship so sturdy and stately as the Galaxy class. They do cruise ships; the Galaxy class is more akin to an ocean liner. Princess Cruises would just take some leftover Sydney-class starships.
If the Galaxy class were to be sold to a liner service, they'd get sold to Cunard Line, operator of the world's only remaining serving ocean liner, the RMS Queen Mary 2. They'd know how to handle an amazing starship class like the Galaxy.
Why's that? The Galaxy class is still an immensely powerful ship class, and we know for a fact that by the early 2370s, most Galaxy-class starships had been refit to include newer, more advanced -- and just plain more -- weaponry. In addition, their large spaceframes make them ideal for cargo and personnel transport, and allow for the installation of more weapons systems if need be. And that's to say nothing of the value of a Galaxy-class starship if your mission involves evacuating large numbers of people.
... you seem to mis-understand the plot to "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost." It was an homage to Seven Days in May, and in it, Admiral Leyton is plotting a coup d'etat against the Federation government, not against Starfleet.
No. The U.S.S. Defiant was an advanced starship with a length of 119.5 meters, beam of 90.3 meters, height of 25.5 meters, and a crew compliment of 50 persons. In addition, her power output equaled that of a Galaxy-class starship. Hardly a "glorified shuttle craft."
1. Brannon Braga never worked on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.
2. Rick Berman, by Season Four, had stepped back from day-to-day running on DSN and handed over showrunner duties to Ira Steven Behr.
3. Just exactly who do you think would have stopped Rick Berman if he had wanted Constitution-class starships to appear on DSN? He was the head guy of the franchise. It wasn't like some suit at Paramount would give a shit about that.
Leyton never planned on having a fight in the first place. He planned to overthrow the President and Council and put himself up as military dictator of the Federation, and to have it be a fiat accompli. Think Buenos Aires in 1976, not Santiago in 1973.
No, because TrekLit has established that slipstream technology is such that only ships with relatively narrow profiles can utilize the technology. You'd need a ship with a very narrow beam, such as an Intrepid-class starship or a Vesta-class starship, for the slipstream drive to work safely. Galaxy-class beams are far too large.
Besides, the Federation is mostly busy trying to rebuild after the Borg Invasion. Galaxy class starships, with their capacity to transport large numbers of refugees, serve as ad hoc hospital ships, provide industrial replication services, and to serve other humanitarian purposed, would by definition be vital to that effort.
Many things.
You do yourself no favors by describing the thematic content of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine in dishonest, inaccurate terms. A casual viewing of episodes such as "Emissary," "Duet," "In the Hands of the Prophets," "Cardassians," "The Maquis," "The Wire," "Past Tense," "Improbable Cause"/"The Die is Cast," "The Visitor," "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost," "Hard Time," "For the Uniform," "Dr. Bashir, I Presume?," "Rocks and Shoals," "Statistical Probabilities," "Waltz," "Far Beyond the Stars," "Honor Among Thieves," "Inquisition," "In the Pale Moonlight," "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges," and "What You Leave Behind" make it clear that Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was far deeper than just space battles and action sequences.
DSN was essentially about taking Roddenberry's concept of a brighter future for humanity, deconstructing it, picking away at its flaws, and then putting it back together and reaffirming it. It's about questioning things, being skeptical, but then reaffirming their value. It's about how a truly more advanced society would act to preserve itself when facing more realistic pressures than we would tend to see on TNG.
There's nothing wrong with that. Just like there's nothing wrong with stories that emphasize the adventure of exploration and optimism first. Both are fully compatible with Star Trek's vision of a brighter future -- because, while DSN questioned that vision, it ultimately reaffirms it.
You are once again resorting to inaccuracies in your description of DSN's content. The Defiant was never established to be "mysteriously more dangerous than any larger ship in the ST universe." It was established to have power output on par with the Galaxy class, but also to have serious technical problems -- she was described as almost shaking herself apart the first time she went to warp. Further, we saw plenty of scenarios in which the Defiant class was evenly matched or outmatched by other ships, including "Starship Down," "Valiant," and "The Changing Face of Evil." For all that you're complaining about the Defiant being in some way depicted as omnipotent, the fact is that she was destroyed on DSN -- which is more than could be said for the Enterprise-D on TNG or Voyager on VOY.
The problem with this line of thought is that it relies on the assumption that the conflicting party is not the aggressor and can be reasoned with. But it is a fact of life that, sometimes, on rare occasion, nation-states embrace imperialism. That it required the use of armed force to stop Nazi Germany does not call into doubt the morality of the Allied Powers; it demonstrates that Nazi Germany had fully embraced aggression and imperialism and refused to be reasoned or negotiated with. Same thing with the Borg and the Dominion.
And for all that you complain about the idea that maybe there would be some scenarios in which the Federation would have to resort to force, bear in mind that the Federation did not fire the first shot in this war; that the Federation refused to rejoice in Cardassian deaths; that the Federation willingly embraced the Cardassians as friends and allies once they rejected Dominion oppression; and that the Federation made it clear it wanted to peacefully coexist with the Dominion, Cardassians, and Breen again after the war.
Neither of which is applicable when a hostile foreign state is building up an armada to invade and occupy your territory and has already demonstrated that it is unpersuaded by the mere threat of violence. In such a situation, the only options are capitulation or retaliation.
Personally, I think the S.S. Vico was a civilian vessel that had been purchased from Starfleet, but that's just me.
I imagine that the loss of life suffered even by ships posted to the core Federation worlds as a result of the Battle of Wolf 359 would have prompted Starfleet to re-examine its policies of allowing families aboard.
Only if it were a novel turn of events, though. For all we know, families have been dying horribly aboard starships for the past century or two, and everybody accepts this downside because of the major upsides.
The thing is, we just don't know much about life aboard starships other than the hero ones. And those appear a diverse lot. Picard had the families (and before that the geriatric wreck), Sisko had the austere battlewagon, Janeway had the landing-capable gimmick, Kirk the all-around explorer and old warrior, Sulu the juggernaut, Archer the experiment. I rather doubt this is the full extent of the possible variation, and I thus further doubt that the E-E would in any way "represent" any sort of "thinking" in Starfleet.
Timo Saloniemi
There's probably a rank/grade component to this - a Captain or XO might be able to take their family with on some ships, on other ships it might be senior officers, on other ships it might be anyone... - or all up to the captain's discretion at granting dispensations based on situations, family size (sorry, you can't take your 8 kids on this Oberth), mission profile and available space.
One size fits all might not be likely.
One size fits all might not be likely.
That seems improbable to me, given as how we did not see any families on large ships of the line such as the Enterprise, Enterprise-A, or Excelsior in the 2260s, 70s, 80s, or 90s.
Writer Ronald D. Moore, back during his days on AOL, remarked that he felt that by the time of the launch of the Enterprise-E, Starfleet had abandoned the practice of bringing families aboard starships.
Not that that's stopped the authors from featuring families aboard the U.S.S. Titan and Enterprise-E in the Star Trek: Titan and post-NEM TNG novels, mind you.
Was re-watching Generations... the D-12 attack against a (practically) non-shielded Enterprise reminded me of the Khan attack in Star Trek II. Those shots cut through the Enterprise D like nothing. Maybe the Enterprise was for all intents and purposes without primary power at the first strike - this would really impact how many phasers they could fire, and being in orbit, they couldn't combat maneuver worth a crap on the auxiliary power running the impulse engines. The Galaxy class may have depended too much upon its (very, very strong) shields for protection, and the reactor was its Achilles heal. This rings true for the Odyssey loss, too. Maybe the hull wasn't as "thick" as other later combat designs.
Knight Templar
Commodore
Of course in regards to Generations, it helps to remember as storyboarded, the Enterprise hit the BOP with a massive salvo of photon torpedoes at close range and a big chunk of BOP debris was blasted by the explosion into the Enterprise engineering section.
That would have been interesting (and likely better) to see. One of the things that made the Odyssey's fight against the Jem'Hadar was that the enemy wound up using a kamikaze attack, and we see part of the nacelle getting blown off and slammed into the engineering hull.
Knight Templar
Commodore
True. Federation starships do seem to be highly vulnerable to nacelle damage. See "Cause and Effect".
That and Khan was able to get full phaser blasts into an unshielded engineering hull targeting the areas of it that would cripple the ship if heavily damaged.
Engine damage naturally can make a good dramatic weakpoint, if used properly. Babylon 5 suggests they wouldn't be a normal target under all circumstances, because the function of the engines usually requires them to be more heavily shielded than other systems to protect the crew. But in catching up on some of my Battletech reading recently, there's an interesting example. BT warships use jump drives which sort of operate on a folding space technique, and there are certain rules to how to use them safely without damaging the ship or things in the immediate vicinity.
During the recent Wars of Reaving among the Clans, who are a major faction, two Clan vessels met in battle and one initiated a jump sequence while the other was nearing pointblank range. It's not entirely clear from the description if this was an actual attempt to escape or an extremely desperate tactic by the jumping vessel, but the results weren't pretty. That vessel essentially imploded and the other vessel was cleaved in two. Most naval warfare in BT is more conventional, naturally.
During the recent Wars of Reaving among the Clans, who are a major faction, two Clan vessels met in battle and one initiated a jump sequence while the other was nearing pointblank range. It's not entirely clear from the description if this was an actual attempt to escape or an extremely desperate tactic by the jumping vessel, but the results weren't pretty. That vessel essentially imploded and the other vessel was cleaved in two. Most naval warfare in BT is more conventional, naturally.
Which when you think about it is a bad thing if the half of the ship you take into battle is the half with the nacelles.
One might speculate that warp-capable ships would become less vulnerable in battle if they shut down that warp capability for the duration of the fight.
Then again, "Cause and Effect" shows us that even a ship almost completely deprived of power (and certainly of warp) will blow up nicely when tapped at the nacelle.
Timo Saloniemi
Then again, "Cause and Effect" shows us that even a ship almost completely deprived of power (and certainly of warp) will blow up nicely when tapped at the nacelle.
Timo Saloniemi
Well, only the E-D exploded. The Bozeman also took a hit to the nacelle and did not explode, AFAIK.
Come to think of it, DS9 featured countless battles where a nacelle hit did not result in the explosion of the ship. Even the Odyssey took a direct hit to one of its nacelles early on and was not in any danger of exploding. When she eventually did explode, it might have been the Jem'hedar ship's AM stores blowing up the Odyssey instead of the nacelle or it might have been the combined secondary hull damage plus nacelle hit that caused her destruction.
Come to think of it, DS9 featured countless battles where a nacelle hit did not result in the explosion of the ship. Even the Odyssey took a direct hit to one of its nacelles early on and was not in any danger of exploding. When she eventually did explode, it might have been the Jem'hedar ship's AM stores blowing up the Odyssey instead of the nacelle or it might have been the combined secondary hull damage plus nacelle hit that caused her destruction.
