• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Did Starfleet discontinue building Galaxy-class?

Lets see, starfleet not continue to use and build 4.5 million ton behemoths with enough firepower to shoot about anything to pieces within a few seconds AND being able to serve as big ass science and diplomatic vessel? Especially when the only thing that ever defeated a Galaxy class ship was moronic writing?

Of course they don't build these things as fast as other ships, they're big but they probably build a few here and there.

Just my opinion.
 
The Sovereign is sometimes seen as a replacement for the Galaxy. I don't think this is a case. They're radically different vehicles, and I doubt either could fully fill in the other's niche. The Sovereign is gonna see bigger production numbers than the Galaxy though, no doubt. I see it as the backbone cruiser, like a Constitution or Excelsior. The Galaxy is half research base, half starbase, with a little bit of cruiser. Its bigger and probably less necessary to core defense than the Sov, unless one lends it non canon/fanon attributes.

Someone upthread posted the belief that the Sovereign was developed as an outgrowth of the Galaxy-Class Development Project. That seems pretty reasonable to me, especially when the fleet's backbone ships are creeping up on a century old. I have my own further thoughts on the Sovereign, but they're heavily fanon, thus contextually inappropriate for this discussion.

As for the Defiant....

Haters Gonna Hate :cool:
 
I'll take a contrarian viewpoint and say that the "headless" Galaxy was, aside from the Defiant, the best "warship" we ever saw in the Trek universe. Heck, even the Klingons said as much. And it would have to have been cheaper than building Soveriegns. Just build a lot of "no saucer" Galaxies and say: "We'll put saucers on them when and if we win."
 
The design would probably be on the go for a long time to come, same as the Sovereign-Class. But in the post-DW period Starfleet needs as many ships as possible, and its better to build more smaller ships which are less resource intensive and time consuming to plug that gap.

Once the fleet starts to recover and large more multi-mission platforms are needed, they would return back to the bigger ships.
 
As Christopher point out in the Galaxy Class thread in the tek lit board, the Galaxy class was designed to be a research vessel, not a front line ship. I can see them still being useful as mobile research stations for many years but I always found their being placed in Dominion line battles as silly. As for whether or not it is a safe place for a family, as was said, any location on the frontier or even on core worlds may not be safe. In some cases, having your children on a Galaxy class would be safer than on a starbase.

Galaxies are still used often in Trek lit but I can't see Galaxies having a large production run.

Do we even know that all Galaxy class ships had families aboard?

The Enterprise did of course, and maybe the Odyssey. But both of these could be starship manning ideas that it turned out didn't work out as hoped.

At any rate, the number of families aboard the Enterprise was apparently extremely low.
 
I believe the families issue wasn't just a function of the size of the ship, it was also tied to the mission profile. If it was supposed to have very long assignments away from the core (and away from command), I see these potential advantages:
*Keep Higher Qualified Officers aspect- Your 24th century Starfleet crew may be okay with 2 or 3 years away from family, or putting off starting a family for 5 years, but 7 or 10? That might be harder to sign up for. Attrition would be high. This way you can keep qualified officers, technicians, etc.
*First Contact Situations - instead of a purely 'institutional' or pseudo-military entity making first contact, first contact would happen with some civilian flair on board- hopefully from several species. You were taking a part of the Federation with you on your mission, more so than just Starfleet officers on 3 duty shifts.
* Civilian Experts - TNG did really not get into this, but I see no reason why non-Starfleet scientists couldn't apply for a 'fellowship' to do research on the Galaxy class starship. Instead of *just* the Starfleet scientists, they could be bringing several post-doc research facilities into unknown space. Maybe even a contingent from several Federation worlds. You could have researchers and engineers from starship construction firms making long term evaluations.

But if all you're doing is negotiating trade disputes, and patrolling known space then that's a waste of time.
 
* Civilian Experts - TNG did really not get into this, but I see no reason why non-Starfleet scientists couldn't apply for a 'fellowship' to do research on the Galaxy class starship. Instead of *just* the Starfleet scientists, they could be bringing several post-doc research facilities into unknown space. Maybe even a contingent from several Federation worlds. You could have researchers and engineers from starship construction firms making long term evaluations.

QUOTE]

IIRC, it was the relatively early ST:TNG novel "Contamination" that focused on the lives of scientists living and working deep within the Enterprise-D with little or no connection to the missions the ship was going on at the time.
 
^I imagine it would be a lot like the episode where Stellar Cartography is negotiating with Ops/Riker about sensor/power/computer time.
 
Galaxy will continue in the long run, though not in any high numbers. Many of SF vessels continue on for numberous years, despite being old and no longer top of the range (e.g. Miranda, Daedalus, Oberth). However some new concepts in designs have been seen in the ST universe. For instance a move away by SF from the bigger is better to a more class tree (with a small number of command ships, more cruisers, even more destroyers and even more frigates). This was first seen in First Contact. It could be seen as a way to spread the cost of battles, but also as a way to bring more weapons to the field, without bringing in more personnel. For example: 20 Defiant class ships could be manned for the same number of personnel that could man one single Galaxy class ship. That would allow a total of 216 phasers and 63 torpedo launchers to be used in combat compared to just 12 phasers and 2 photon launchers, which represent an 1800% and 3150% increase in weapons.

With this information the pyramid system for ship types will probably see fewer Sovereign and Galaxy class ships compared with other ships. I also think a lot more classes with more mission specific qualities will come about. Such as the combat Defiant, the science vessel Nova. I think Starfleet will keep a fleet of about 180 galaxy craft and even fewer sov's (possibly around the 45 mark)

If you want to compare it to the real world, many nations gave up on battleships (equivalent to Galaxy) soon after WWII as they were seen as far too resource intensive and when they sunk, they lost a lot of lives. (Yes there is of course the concept of Aircraft carriers, but yet very few aircraft carriers have seen "fleet" action since WWII, yet destroyers, submarines, frigates and land based air craft have all had their fair share of combat roles).

As for the Defiant being too powerful. It wasn't powerful enough to defeat four klingon ships, it barely made it out of the fight with the Lokota, the Battle of Cardassia and numerous other skirmishes. The ship that was really over portrayed was Voyager, that showed it could run in, take a few pot shots at the Borg Tactical cube, run away with some damage and be back again in a day to defeat it with one other ship in tow. Highly likely as 40 starships couldn't do the job with a normal cube at 395 and many, many ships couldn't do it in the battle of sector 001 until Picard turned up.
 
For instance a move away by SF from the bigger is better to a more class tree

How can we tell? We never saw battlefleets before - they may have consisted of a low number of kingpin vessels surrounded by a range of smaller ships all along, but the peacetime TNG gave us no chance to see this.

Certainly most of the ships the E-D encountered were on the small side, from Excelsior down, with just two or three Ambassadors and Nebulas thrown into the mix. And perhaps those larger ships are vitally important in deep space exploration where smaller "auxiliaries" won't survive for long, meaning Starfleet will have to keep building them in the future as well (or else switch to sending flotillas of smaller vessels for each exploration errand).

Timo Saloniemi
 
david lowbridge

I think you cannot really compare this to modern day Earth.
For one thing, we are talking about an organization that spans 8000 LY's.
They don't use or care about 'money'. What they care about are resources when it comes to ship production.
To that end, the Federation alone probably has more than enough resources to continue pumping out Galaxy class ships at a previous or more frequent rate, while focusing other shipyards on construction of newer/smaller/equally powerful ships that take less time to build.
It's a pretty large area of space we are talking about which is probably abundant in natural resources, and then the Feds can replicate materials out of energy itself.

It depends on SF's needs really.
The Galaxy class, Sovereign and some of the mid-large ships (in Intrepid's range) would probably be used for deep space exploration.

If anything I don't see why SF would continue construction of Miranda and Excelsior class ships, or even the Ambassador class ships.
They would likely continue upgrading the ones in current service and just use them until the end of their operational life-span, but making new ones doesn't seem sensible especially when we saw other (and probably more modern) classes that can easily fill those roles.

As for the Defiant being 'overpowered'... it was 'overpowered' for its size.
Nothing more and nothing less - this could indicate that prior to the construction of the Defiant, small ships like it didn't pack as much firepower as larger ships.
Also, the Enterprise-D wasn't able to defeat the 3 attacking Klingon BoP's (larger ones) in an alternate timeline (and in that universe, it was a 'warship').
As for the Defiant... it went up against 3 Dominion bug ships later on in the Dominion War and came out victorious.

Intrepid was not overpowered... it essentially equals the Galaxy class in shields/weapons (except torpedo count), and its skirmish against the Tactical cube happened after the following:
1. Upgrades received by 29th century Borg drone
2. SF Tactical upgrades through a data stream (after which the ship was able to deal damage to Hirogen ships whose monotanium hull plating was previously impervious to phasers)
3. 7 of 9 was on board during the battle with the Tactical cube and she was probably able to stave off some damage to give the away team a chance (plus, Voyager was dealt a good deal of damage in that firefight and it's shields were relatively quickly pierced - my best hypothesis would be that 7 was able to keep the Warp drive operational long enough so the ship can escape and prevent Drones from beaming in).

Special circumstances have to be taken into account (love it when people seemingly discard things that previously happened).
 
For instance a move away by SF from the bigger is better to a more class tree
How can we tell? We never saw battlefleets before - they may have consisted of a low number of kingpin vessels surrounded by a range of smaller ships all along, but the peacetime TNG gave us no chance to see this.

Certainly most of the ships the E-D encountered were on the small side, from Excelsior down, with just two or three Ambassadors and Nebulas thrown into the mix. And perhaps those larger ships are vitally important in deep space exploration where smaller "auxiliaries" won't survive for long, meaning Starfleet will have to keep building them in the future as well (or else switch to sending flotillas of smaller vessels for each exploration errand).

Timo Saloniemi

We had seen some battle groups before. With the Miranda and the Constellation being two of the smaller ships in use. Both of which are rather resource intensive

You are concentrating far too much on the exploration area of Starfleet. You have to remember it also the defensive arm of the Federation. Consider that Starfleet it suppose to be about 8-10,000 ships, how many ships do you really want out there exploring? Certainly not that many! A couple of hundred at most. The galaxy class ship is excellent for long term missions. But it is a waste of resources for patrols and other small short term duties. Personnally I would have about 100 - 200 ships on long term exploration, but keep the majority of the fleet inside Federation space.

Also note that the Federation at the end of DS9 is very short of ships. It is stated by some commentators that nearly 2/3rds of ships were destroyed. Even if only one third were destroyed, it would mean that Starfleet need to replace ships quickly, which smaller, less resource intense vessels are better suited as replacements.
 
david lowbridge

I think you cannot really compare this to modern day Earth.
For one thing, we are talking about an organization that spans 8000 LY's.
They don't use or care about 'money'.

When did I use the term or suggest money? I used resource intensive (and loss of life). Which can resonably assume many things, such as equipment, materials and personnel. The whole modern day equivalent was in relation to tactics where big guns on big ships has been replaced by smaller ships with better weaponary and in regards to the number of people killed when one ships were sunk.

What they care about are resources when it comes to ship production.
To that end, the Federation alone probably has more than enough resources to continue pumping out Galaxy class ships at a previous or more frequent rate, while focusing other shipyards on construction of newer/smaller/equally powerful ships that take less time to build.
It's a pretty large area of space we are talking about which is probably abundant in natural resources, and then the Feds can replicate materials out of energy itself.

One problem I have with this is that the Federation still needs miners for all sorts of materials. So you have a whole load of logistics, just to get the materials. And it can't be as simple as replicating either, otherwise they wouldn't bother with the miners. There might be a limit as to what they can replicate and how much they can. If those energy resources are finite for instance? what would that do 100, 200 years down the line. What they going to do then, put a windmill on every ship for power when the power resources run out?

It depends on SF's needs really.
The Galaxy class, Sovereign and some of the mid-large ships (in Intrepid's range) would probably be used for deep space exploration.

I don't disagree, and I never said anything to contradict this.

If anything I don't see why SF would continue construction of Miranda and Excelsior class ships, or even the Ambassador class ships.
They would likely continue upgrading the ones in current service and just use them until the end of their operational life-span, but making new ones doesn't seem sensible especially when we saw other (and probably more modern) classes that can easily fill those roles.

I never said about the construction of more Miranda and Excelsior class vessels, you've again put words in my mouth. New classes would have to be developed, as the Miranda was over 100 years old at this point (although probably been refitted several times, there will be a time when enough it enough. This is seen in the episodes of ST with the Sabre, the Steamrunner, the Prometheus and even the Intrepid.

As for the Defiant being 'overpowered'... it was 'overpowered' for its size.
Nothing more and nothing less - this could indicate that prior to the construction of the Defiant, small ships like it didn't pack as much firepower as larger ships.
Also, the Enterprise-D wasn't able to defeat the 3 attacking Klingon BoP's (larger ones) in an alternate timeline (and in that universe, it was a 'warship').
As for the Defiant... it went up against 3 Dominion bug ships later on in the Dominion War and came out victorious.

I never mentioned anything about the capabilities of the Enterprise-D. I have no idea why you have mentioned this. Also compare that the Defiant was officially an escort, but in reality was built to be a warship (the Search Part 1), when comparing to other ships it would have more weapons and better shielding.

Intrepid was not overpowered... it essentially equals the Galaxy class in shields/weapons (except torpedo count), and its skirmish against the Tactical cube happened after the following:
1. Upgrades received by 29th century Borg drone

Possibly, but there are limits to the upgrades one drone could have done in such a small amount of time.

2. SF Tactical upgrades through a data stream (after which the ship was able to deal damage to Hirogen ships whose monotanium hull plating was previously impervious to phasers)

Where is the evidence for that. Could that not be the direct result of battles with the Hirogen? learning from past mistakes? Having been on one of their ships? Studying the abandoned ship for a while?

3. 7 of 9 was on board during the battle with the Tactical cube and she was probably able to stave off some damage to give the away team a chance (plus, Voyager was dealt a good deal of damage in that firefight and it's shields were relatively quickly pierced - my best hypothesis would be that 7 was able to keep the Warp drive operational long enough so the ship can escape and prevent Drones from beaming in)

Special circumstances have to be taken into account (love it when people seemingly discard things that previously happened).

umm... 1st of all, in the first battle, the borg got the access codes from Tuvok. giving them a huge advantage, yet the tactical cube could not just blow up Voyager. Also I am sure 7 of 9 was not actually particpating in the battle. wasn't she connected to unimatrix zero? she got a status report after the battle from chakotay and paris, and was asked to go back in there. In the second battle, she went to unimatrix zero to talk to her 'boy friend' saying she had wasted their time together. This excluded her from the second battle and helping with repairs and keeping the warp drive online in between the battles (for the majority at least).

And lastly, don't critise if you can't quote properly. There were several instances in your post when you assumed or frankly just made stuff up.
 
As for the Defiant... it went up against 3 Dominion bug ships later on in the Dominion War and came out victorious.

Just a note. When did this occur? Which episode? In what battle? Considering that during the course of the Dominion war, we saw a klingon bird of prey destory a "bug ship" (its actually called an attack ship) with just a few disruptor blasts (with the Dom just coming into the battle) (Favour the Bold). A runabout destroy one with just its phasers targeting a sensitive area (Trechery Faith and the Great River). Only in one episode do I remember that a lone Defiant was under attack from any fresh Attack ships and that was only a single one that we know of (The Seige of AR-558) and that took a bit of doing.

During the second battle of Chintoka, Starfleet only fired on the breen and in the battle of cardassia, it is too much chaos to know if any enemy ships had or hadn't sustained damage before the Defiant engaged them, so any conjecture there is practically mute. The Jem'Hadar vessels could be practically falling apart. And as I remember (from last week), the Defiant was taking a beating in that battle too.

During the Die is Cast (not part of Dominion War) is the only time I can think off where the Defiant is too powerful as it easily destroys several dominion vessels, gets it two men and then runs off, without so much as getting a sun burn.

You can't say I ignore previous evidence, when I am the only one using episodes as a reference. Even in my orginal post I stated that First Contact was the basis for my theory of smaller ships taking on a larger role in the Federation, but if you want to go deeper, in DS9 and Voyager there were signs of other smaller ships being deployed more, "Message in a bottle", "End Game", "What You Leave Behind", "Sacrifice of Angels", "Favour the Bold", "Tears of the Profits" to name just a few.
 
That same argument works not just for the Defiant but for the Enterprise's and Voyager.

Yes the same sort of thing happens on ST:ENT and VOY on a weekly basis.

The TOS/TMP/TNG Enterprise remains in history as a starship many are still amazed with even though we dont remember them for something that just blows up baddies in spectacular ways all the time.
 
That same argument works not just for the Defiant but for the Enterprise's and Voyager.

Yes the same sort of thing happens on ST:ENT and VOY on a weekly basis.

The TOS/TMP/TNG Enterprise remains in history as a starship many are still amazed with even though we dont remember them for something that just blows up baddies in spectacular ways all the time.

Only in the case of the 1701-D it was quite justified since this one was a member of the largest and most powerful class in Starfleet.

I still think they're near the absolute top when it comes to firepower, and also energy output, hauling 4.5 million tons around at Warp 9.9 is going to need a lot of juice, which will be all available to shields and weapons when you're flying around at impulse speeds..
 
When did I use the term or suggest money? I used resource intensive (and loss of life). Which can resonably assume many things, such as equipment, materials and personnel. The whole modern day equivalent was in relation to tactics where big guns on big ships has been replaced by smaller ships with better weaponary and in regards to the number of people killed when one ships were sunk.

I used 'money' as a term merely to illustrate that SF sees things a bit differently when it comes to resource use/expenditure.
But granted, I probably jumped the gun on the modern day equivalent because I skimmed that particular part.

One problem I have with this is that the Federation still needs miners for all sorts of materials. So you have a whole load of logistics, just to get the materials. And it can't be as simple as replicating either, otherwise they wouldn't bother with the miners. There might be a limit as to what they can replicate and how much they can. If those energy resources are finite for instance? what would that do 100, 200 years down the line. What they going to do then, put a windmill on every ship for power when the power resources run out?

The Federation is also heavily reliant on recycling.
And with the amount of space we are talking about, there probably won't be shortage of anything anytime soon. Its very possible that most of the resources that might be an issue for lost ships such as Voyager to find SF actually has artificial sources to draw from.
To that end, we've seen SF using Solar power as means to powering subspace communications and other technologies in STIV (at a time when the whale probe effectively shut down most of everything else).
Per Voyager, they can recycle energy itself (so I don't think that energy as such is an issue for them - actually its implied that there's an abundance of it).
As for needing miners for minerals... that really depends on what minerals we are talking about.
We also witnessed a Dilithium Mining asteroid in 'Author Author', but we also know that SF was able to re-crystalise the used Dilithium crystals and even make synthetic ones. So its entirely possible that their reliance on 'new' or 'fresh' resources is extremely minimal and used as a potential supplement but not as a main source.

I never said about the construction of more Miranda and Excelsior class vessels, you've again put words in my mouth. New classes would have to be developed, as the Miranda was over 100 years old at this point (although probably been refitted several times, there will be a time when enough it enough. This is seen in the episodes of ST with the Sabre, the Steamrunner, the Prometheus and even the Intrepid.

Again, I merely pointed out the unlikelihood of construction of more Miranda/Excelsior/Ambassador type ships as a mere reference. It was not intended to put words in your mouth.
And I also agree that there is likely a time frame within which SF is producing a certain class of ships (say, 10 or 15 years if they don't have new designs).
For reference purposes only... one of the reasons behind SF having lots of older designs from the 23rd century could have been due to no new designs.
TNG was more or less a 'turning point' in terms of technologies and designs - plus new threats- which probably prompted SF to come up with more classes.

I never mentioned anything about the capabilities of the Enterprise-D. I have no idea why you have mentioned this. Also compare that the Defiant was officially an escort, but in reality was built to be a warship (the Search Part 1), when comparing to other ships it would have more weapons and better shielding.

You mentioned that the Defiant which was unofficially a warship never defeated 3 ships at once.
My example was to illustrate that yet another warship (which was incidentally much larger) essentially failed to do the same.
Also, just because the Defiant was a warship, doesn't mean it had more weapons or better shielding than say an Intrepid or Galaxy classes.
For one thing, the Defiant has only 4 forward facing pulse phaser ports and 1 top phaser strip (plus 3 torpedo tubes for all we know - 2 forward and 1 aft) Compared to the Galaxy and Intrepid class, it's full of blind spots in phaser coverage, and the Intrepid beats it when it comes to torpedo tubes (if the Defiant has 3 of them).


Possibly, but there are limits to the upgrades one drone could have done in such a small amount of time.

Borg nanoprobes from the 24th century have a wide range of capabilities and work rather fast... 29th century nanoprobes would probably do the work a lot faster and better.


Where is the evidence for that. Could that not be the direct result of battles with the Hirogen? learning from past mistakes? Having been on one of their ships? Studying the abandoned ship for a while?

If we go by on-screen evidence only, the Voyager crew had little to no reason to expect to see the Hirogen ever again after 'Endgame' events.
There is a possibility of course the crew could have found some options... but they were in contact with SF when Barclay opened up the micro-wormhole transmitting all of their data to them.
By the time the hyper-subspace technology was applied, and with advances happening in the AQ, its very likely a countermeasure could have been found very fast.

umm... 1st of all, in the first battle, the borg got the access codes from Tuvok. giving them a huge advantage, yet the tactical cube could not just blow up Voyager. Also I am sure 7 of 9 was not actually particpating in the battle. wasn't she connected to unimatrix zero? she got a status report after the battle from chakotay and paris, and was asked to go back in there. In the second battle, she went to unimatrix zero to talk to her 'boy friend' saying she had wasted their time together. This excluded her from the second battle and helping with repairs and keeping the warp drive online in between the battles (for the majority at least).

And lastly, don't critise if you can't quote properly. There were several instances in your post when you assumed or frankly just made stuff up.

The battle vs the Tactical cube where the Borg acquired access codes from Tuvok was in the second attempt (well after that initial combat where the away team got onboard and was assimilated).
Its not that the Tactical cube couldn't just blow up Voyager... the queen was simply toying with the crew and saw the ship as annoying. 7 was part of the first battle and to my knowledge the subsequent ones (she went back to Unimatrix 0 after the first battle, then again after the second one when the cube got the access codes and crippled Voayeger, and finally during the third battle [when the Sphere joined Voyager] in the end to find Axem as Unimatrix 0 was shutting down).

Finally, I was not making things up. I was bringing up things for reference sake... and if you were the one who assumed they were there for another reason, then that's your fault (but admittedly, it was also mine in part for not illustrating it better, and I apologize for that).

P.S. Regarding the Defiant defeating 3 Dominion attack ships... it was mentioned sometime during the Dominion war as part of one of Bashirs boasting in Quarks (start of an episode I think - but I cannot recall which one - to that end, in terms of eliminating those Attack ships, the Defiant Pulse phasers seemed to do that in just a few shots per ship - so it has the ability to dispose of them quickly - the matter of staying in a fight long enough to dispose of 3 of them depends on shields and piloting).
 
Last edited:
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top