Did Starfleet discontinue building Galaxy-class?

[Deks]

The fight in Generations was pathetic. I can understand if Soren did modifications to the BoP that would give it an edge over the Enterprise (and this might have been reflected when their shields held against a single phaser beam), however, Riker was pathetic in that battle to say the least (as was Worf).
They should have unleashed a full phaser/torpedo barrage onto the BoP, and with that in mind, there's a very good chance the thing would have exploded promptly.

I could also understand if the the Enterprise-D's weapons were disabled on the first shot (but they weren't - although the BoP shields holding against a phaser beam could be attributed to a weaker power delivery - but nothing of the kind was stated).

I suppose we can excuse the fight in 'Rascals' because the Enterprise was taken off guard more or less (and there were 2 ships there), but ultimately, they are flimsy excuses to say the least.

 

[Knight Templar]

So it's not necessarily a given that a Galaxy-class is invincible to Klingon ships.

Agreed, remembering that the USS Farragut was destroyed by the Klingons during the Federation - Klingon war. .

We have no idea how large the Klingon force that attacked the U.S.S. Farragut was. For all we know it might've been 10 or 12 Birds of Prey backed up by a Vorcha class atttack cruiser or three or four Vorchas. Or other types of Klingon vessels entirely.

 

[Knight Templar]

The fight in Generations was pathetic. I can understand if Soren did modifications to the BoP that would give it an edge over the Enterprise (and this might have been reflected when their shields held against a single phaser beam), however, Riker was pathetic in that battle to say the least (as was Worf).
They should have unleashed a full phaser/torpedo barrage onto the BoP, and with that in mind, there's a very good chance the thing would have exploded promptly.

I could also understand if the the Enterprise-D's weapons were disabled on the first shot (but they weren't - although the BoP shields holding against a phaser beam could be attributed to a weaker power delivery - but nothing of the kind was stated).

I suppose we can excuse the fight in 'Rascals' because the Enterprise was taken off guard more or less (and there were 2 ships there), but ultimately, they are flimsy excuses to say the least.

100% agreed.

As Phil Farrand says in "The Nitpickers Guide"

"why isn't Riker laying into those old Birds of Prey with every weapon at his disposal?"

 

[Timo]

You mean, phasers and photon torpedoes?

Umm... He did.

That's how TNG era (and TOS era) starships always fight: they fire a single phaser beam and bursts of torpedoes when commanded to "fire at will, all weapons". That's what is considered the most effective against the resilient Borg, or against the hyperactive EP-607 probe, or against a flotilla of Klingon capital ships.

It may look silly, and it may be due solely to the limitations of 1980s VFX technologies, but it is what is consistent for Star Trek. Everything else would be "in error" for that particular universe.

So it's not necessarily a given that a Galaxy-class is invincible to Klingon ships.

It would be extremely odd if something like this were the case. Why would the Klingons settle for ships that cannot challenge their traditional enemy?

I can understand that Cardassians or Talarians would lack the means to stand up against Starfleet's finest, as they evidently are relatively recently encountered competitors to the UFP. But the Klingon Empire has been in the rat race long enough that it would be a matter of honor for them to design or modify at least a few token ships that can match the top competition - even if there didn't exist a persistent tactical reason for building such vessels.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

The fight in Generations was pathetic. I can understand if Soren did modifications to the BoP that would give it an edge over the Enterprise (and this might have been reflected when their shields held against a single phaser beam), however, Riker was pathetic in that battle to say the least (as was Worf).

How so? The Klingon ship fired without a warning a torpedo that penetrated the Enterprise's shields as if they weren't there. Immediately, Riker orders Worf to return fire. They didn't just sit there.

They should have unleashed a full phaser/torpedo barrage onto the BoP, and with that in mind, there's a very good chance the thing would have exploded promptly.

I don't think a full phaser/torpedo barrage is the standard response to all attacks. But actually, it could be easily argued that Klingon ship had very good shields if the only weakness she had were defective plasma coils. In a sense of giving them a taste of their own medicine, Riker came up with a trick of his own to take care of the Klingon ship's shields and then blow her out of the water.

I suppose we can excuse the fight in 'Rascals' because the Enterprise was taken off guard more or less (and there were 2 ships there), but ultimately, they are flimsy excuses to say the least.

Or that not all ships are created equal and even the mighty Enterprise isn't all powerful.

So it's not necessarily a given that a Galaxy-class is invincible to Klingon ships.

It would be extremely odd if something like this were the case. Why would the Klingons settle for ships that cannot challenge their traditional enemy?

I can understand that Cardassians or Talarians would lack the means to stand up against Starfleet's finest, as they evidently are relatively recently encountered competitors to the UFP. But the Klingon Empire has been in the rat race long enough that it would be a matter of honor for them to design or modify at least a few token ships that can match the top competition - even if there didn't exist a persistent tactical reason for building such vessels.

Agreed.

 

[david lowbridge]

So it's not necessarily a given that a Galaxy-class is invincible to Klingon ships.

Agreed, remembering that the USS Farragut was destroyed by the Klingons during the Federation - Klingon war. .

We have no idea how large the Klingon force that attacked the U.S.S. Farragut was. For all we know it might've been 10 or 12 Birds of Prey backed up by a Vorcha class atttack cruiser or three or four Vorchas. Or other types of Klingon vessels entirely.

I highly doubt that the Klingons would use a large force to ambush a single ship. We've only seen ships in large numbers when attack large targets (deep space nine, chintoka). Generally we've only seen the Klingons use small numbers when attacking single ships (at most 3 BoP and 1 Vocha, which I would like to add the Defiant was able to somehow keep at bay for a little while before it escaped).

 

[Timo]

On the other hand, in TOS the use of multiple vessels against a single Constitution was the standard tactic of both Klingons and Romulans. If a single battle cruiser attempted to challenge our heroes, it did so with the backing of decisive subterfuge: sabotage ("Elaan of Troyius"), superweapons ("More Tribbles"), complex conspiracies (ST6). Without such subterfuge, lone Klingon vessels always fled, or died.

In "Yesterday's Enterprise", multiple ships again were the Klingon tactic of choice. Even if they knew there were two Starfleet vessels there, they still chose numerical superiority rather than mere parity. Everything else was considered suicide, although of course suicide was always an option ("A Matter of Honor", ST:GEN). I could easily see a group of three Vor'Chas ambushing the Farragut, then. Much like three Birds of Prey attacked Dukat's lone cruiser in "Way of the Warrior".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Knight Templar]

You mean, phasers and photon torpedoes?

Umm... He did.

That's how TNG era (and TOS era) starships always fight: they fire a single phaser beam and bursts of torpedoes when commanded to "fire at will, all weapons".
It may look silly, and it may be due solely to the limitations of 1980s VFX technologies, but it is what is consistent for Star Trek. Everything else would be "in error" for that particular universe.

Really? in "Survivors" an early Season Three episode with the same special effects limitations of that era, the Enterprise unleases a full spread of photon torpedos (at least eight) and three full strength phaser shots in their attack during the second encounter with the Husnock ship.

A few seconds later when Riker gives the order "Commence rapid fire with all weapons on full!", the Husnock ship onscreen is shown getting hit by another eight torpedos and FOUR full strength phaser shots.

 

[Timo]

Which differs from ST:GEN how? A single phaser beam and a single torpedo tube are used in both cases. It's just that the TNG episode dwells more on the exterior visuals, while GEN features long shots of bridge activity where the constant and rapid weapons firing is evident from auditory cues.

Which of course is a grave mistake in a grand movie aiming to make a visual impact. Phasers going "ping! ping!" on the background cannot hold a candle to phasers going "Swoooosh!" across the screen.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

Difference between "The Survivors" and "Generations"? E-D fires successive phasers and torpedoes in "The Survivors". In "Generations", one phaser beam. Then perhaps one ore two more but definitely not successive as we see in all external shots it is the BOP that is doing all the shooting.

However, kudos to Riker in "Generations" for ordering phasers to be fired within a few seconds of being attacked unlike in "Rascals" where he waits almost a full minute to do so.

 

[Knight Templar]

I always said that if I was doing a "FanEdit" of "Rascals" I would edit out the number "two" from Worfs report and "ships decloaking" and feature at least FOUR Klingon Birds of Prey and have the Enterprise blow away two before succumbing to the Ferengi controlled ships.

Of course, if I were doing "fanedits" I would go to Yesterdays Enterprise and make the three Klingon ships similar (though not identical) to attack cruisers and "upgun" the Enterprise into something more obviously a dedicated warship.

 

[anh165]

I dont know why people are getting into a huff about Riker?

He faced the Enterprise off against the Borg cube 3 times and survived in Best of Both Worlds with no help from any other vessel.

The Borg cube was about as hard as any opponent can get in TNG


Kirk and his Enterprise managed to stop V'ger and made it vanish, yet in the sequel his ship gets a sucker punch in the face by a Miranda class commanded by someone who never commanded a Starfleet ship before. It's all very circumstancial.

 

[Knight Templar]

I dont know why people are getting into a huff about Riker?

He faced the Enterprise off against the Borg cube 3 times and survived in Best of Both Worlds with no help from any other vessel.

The Borg cube was about as hard as any opponent can get in TNG

Two of those times were against a Borg ship with Picard above, and it isn't hard to believe that Picard's influence on the Borg Collective kept them from going all out against the Enterprise.

After all, after the Enterprise exhausted its energies firing on the Borg cube in "The Best of Both Worlds pt. 11" the ship was utterly helpless (it couldn't even go to warp). Yet the Borg simply flew away and ignored it rather than finish it off.

The 3rd time Riker went up against the Borg ship in Earth orbit he was within about a second "Eng.." of ordering a suicide ramming and a few seconds more from the Enterprise being destroyed outright.

 

[Unicron]

Kirk and his Enterprise managed to stop V'ger and made it vanish, yet in the sequel his ship gets a sucker punch in the face by a Miranda class commanded by someone who never commanded a Starfleet ship before. It's all very circumstancial.

Khan very nearly succeeded in taking over the Enterprise in "Space Seed," and that was implied in no small part to be due to a genetically superior memory - he studied the ship's engineering details and knew how to control the key systems. One can easily infer he did the same when he took over the Reliant, though as Spock mentioned he wasn't an experienced commander the way Kirk was.

 

[Knight Templar]

Kirk and his Enterprise managed to stop V'ger and made it vanish, yet in the sequel his ship gets a sucker punch in the face by a Miranda class commanded by someone who never commanded a Starfleet ship before. It's all very circumstancial.

For all we know the Reliant was newer and more advanced than the Enterprise.

Plus, Enterprise had a crew of cadets and a very rusty "captain" (Kirk basically admitted as much).

Plus, The Wrath of Khan was pretty obviously inferred to be several YEARS after The Motion Picture.

 

[MacLeod]

In an episode of TNG "Q Who?" we saw the Ent-D unleash multiple phasers from different emitters at a single vessel.

 

[Knight Templar]

In an episode of TNG "Q Who?" we saw the Ent-D unleash multiple phasers from different emitters at a single vessel.

Actually, in "Q Who", the Enterprise fired three phaser shots from the lower saucer emitter, and one from the upper saucer emitter. One after the other.

This was the first time in ST:TNG that we ever observed the phasers firing from the upper saucer emitter.

That blast from the upper saucer emitter was the one that finally destroyed the Borg tractor beam.

 

[Gagarin]

We might speculate that the Galaxy class ships had different rules of engagement policies and procedures than other earlier or later Starfleet ships...sometimes. Or doctrine had changed in regards to how to conduct battles in the 24th century.

Or..weird writing, directing, and sfx limitations.

 

[Knight Templar]

Anyone want to talk about the "phaser beams from the forward torpedo tube" in "Darmok"?

Given all the years the fx crew had been doing phaser effects on the show I had trouble believing that was a simple error.

I reasoned that given that the phasers Geordi was preparing were somewhat specialized so they could knock out the Tamaran field generators in a single salvo that he mounted them in or around the torpedo tube in order to get better access to power conduits from the warp core.

 

[blssdwlf]

Or the phaser beam from the center of the E-D's saucer in "Encounter at Farpoint" or the phasers from the interior side of the nacelle pylons in "Best of Both Worlds" They're the hidden single emitter phasers