Still nobody complains about Spock mindraping that poor unconscious Romulan.
Did Spock torture Valeris
- Thread starter Jetboogieman
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A cat dancer, drowned in a pool table. Shatner humour at work.
Shouldn't he have gotten a search warrant? I agree he's searching for evidence. However, it takes the term "thought police" to a new level. I referenced Section 31 in one of my earlier posts. Maybe Section 31 should have a group of vulcans (or even Betazeds) to do their interrogation. Doesn't Kor talk about the Klingon Mind Sifter in "Errand of Mercy?" Do we want our Federation to be like the 23rd century Klingons?
In the context of a film drama, I don't know what they could have done that would have been better. In the Trek universe, it would seem that one's right to privacy (of their own mind) would still be a right.
The fact that it WAS out of character was what made the scene work for me.
Valeris was confident they could not prise the information from her. Kirk gives the order and Spock contemplates momentarily.
Valeris is clearly shocked not having considered that a forced mind-meld would be used, a taboo to Vulcans but to Spock it was the only logical way to get the information.
Kirk, Scotty and Uhura are also shocked as they've probably never seen an un-willing participant fighting a mind-meld.
Spock also seems ashamed afterwards as although logically was the only way, it would still be regarded as a violation by a Vulcan.
As to Valeris's pain, I suspect that was more to do with the far more experienced Spock smashing her psychic defences aside than actual torture.
I also feel the mind-meld may have been one of the things Spock was dwelling on in the later 'dining on ashes' scene.
Valeris was confident they could not prise the information from her. Kirk gives the order and Spock contemplates momentarily.
Valeris is clearly shocked not having considered that a forced mind-meld would be used, a taboo to Vulcans but to Spock it was the only logical way to get the information.
Kirk, Scotty and Uhura are also shocked as they've probably never seen an un-willing participant fighting a mind-meld.
Spock also seems ashamed afterwards as although logically was the only way, it would still be regarded as a violation by a Vulcan.
As to Valeris's pain, I suspect that was more to do with the far more experienced Spock smashing her psychic defences aside than actual torture.
I also feel the mind-meld may have been one of the things Spock was dwelling on in the later 'dining on ashes' scene.
Sigh. Shatner's real-life wife drowned several - ten! - years after ST V. Shatner himself talked about his ST V water-filled "pool table" sight gag in interviews. Must we now never mention water and Shatner in the same breath because of a tragedy that happened a decade later later?
I don't think this could be considered torture. Torture is a prolonged activity that doesn't necessarily need a conclusion. It's about causing pain. I'm not sure Valaris was in pain or feeling anything unpleasant. How can you apinfully pull out thoughts. She was just trying to fight him out of her head and because exhausted. I do agree that the best description is rape. Spock forced himself into an intimate area against her will.
I think the only reason why you can justify this is because Valaris was proven to be a conspirator where as the problem with invasive interrogation is that you don't know if the person is guilty or knows anything before you start in. You don't know the result and you you might get a false positive. Spock knew what she had and got it quickly. It still probably doesn't make it right. We don't know if Valaris sued Spock later or if the information she gave was merely made inadmisable.
I think the only reason why you can justify this is because Valaris was proven to be a conspirator where as the problem with invasive interrogation is that you don't know if the person is guilty or knows anything before you start in. You don't know the result and you you might get a false positive. Spock knew what she had and got it quickly. It still probably doesn't make it right. We don't know if Valaris sued Spock later or if the information she gave was merely made inadmisable.
Yes, absolutely. I have to say this is the type of Star Trek discussion I have been craving. I think Spock, this emotional mess that came back after III, was angry and hurt at his protege. He wanted to punish her as much as he wanted information. She pulls away, and he gets angry. And don't argue that he wasn't an emotional mess. "Logic, logic, and logic. Logic, is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end." "Tell her I feel fine."
And the worst part is that no one cares afterward. They all act like he's done something casual, not assaulted her mind. I have other thoughts on why Star Trek VI, while one of my favorites, has problems. But all in good time.
Valeris (and others) were attempting to plunge the Federation and the Klingons back into a series of hot and cold wars that had in the past certainly killed many starfleet personnel.
Why exactly would any of the heros care in the least about Valeris?
Valeris (and others) were attempting to plunge the Federation and the Klingons back into a series of hot and cold wars that had in the past certainly killed many starfleet personnel.
Why exactly would any of the heros care in the least about Valeris?
because she was a Starfleet officer who was a protege of their friend Mr. Spock, and she'd served as a respected colleague with them on a mission? Also, she wasn't evil, she was acting in what she thought was the best interests of Starfleet. She was just misguided.
Because the Romulan didn't have boobs.
Right, I forgot that it's only rape if there's boobs involved.
Valeris (and others) were attempting to plunge the Federation and the Klingons back into a series of hot and cold wars that had in the past certainly killed many starfleet personnel.
Why exactly would any of the heros care in the least about Valeris?
Because it's STAR TREK! The ultimate respect for life. You don't kill anyone you don't have to and you play by rules that your opponent doesn't. Mind-rape is not on the list of things acceptable, especially from Spock.
I think I could buy that if it were only that she conspired against the Klingon leader, but framing Kirk and McCoy, while shooting Burke and Samno in cold blood, strikes me as edging into the "evil" category.
I just want to add that I remember a TOS episode in which a captured villain refuses to tell Kirk something, so Kirk sends for Spock to perform a mindmeld. Wish I could remember which episode. Anyone else recognize that? I just felt like mentioning that Star Trek 6 wasn't the first time Kirk considered it okay for Spock to forcefully obtain information that way.
We don't even know why the hell she screamed.
Spock could have found an unpleasant memory, probably something that had to do with her becoming traitor. As you might notice, Spock looks pretty disturbed at the end, too.
Spock could have found an unpleasant memory, probably something that had to do with her becoming traitor. As you might notice, Spock looks pretty disturbed at the end, too.
I get that he was trying to stop a war. However, the only thing he didn't get from her was the location of the peace conference. Again, he gets that from Sulu. This is the guy that said "There are always possibilities." I want more from Spock. As I was thinking about the topic of this post, I thought of Picard's speech from the stand in "The Drumhead"
"You know, there are some words I've known since I was a schoolboy: ' With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.' Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie as wisdom and warning. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on we're all damaged. I fear that today..."
If a person's thoughts aren't his own, then what is? What's to stop Starfleet from just going hogwild with Vulcans interrogating everyone with mindmelds? I think it's a slippery slope that Spock is on. Somebody mentioned the "Dining on Ashes" scene shortly after. It seems like he's still pissed at her (rightfully so) and not with his own actions. Granted, we never know if there were any repercussions to his actions after these events.
"You know, there are some words I've known since I was a schoolboy: ' With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.' Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie as wisdom and warning. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on we're all damaged. I fear that today..."
If a person's thoughts aren't his own, then what is? What's to stop Starfleet from just going hogwild with Vulcans interrogating everyone with mindmelds? I think it's a slippery slope that Spock is on. Somebody mentioned the "Dining on Ashes" scene shortly after. It seems like he's still pissed at her (rightfully so) and not with his own actions. Granted, we never know if there were any repercussions to his actions after these events.
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