Did Spock torture Valeris

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Jetboogieman, Jul 2, 2011.

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  1. Brutal Strudel

    Brutal Strudel Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    "Elaan of Troyius."
     
  2. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If the mind meld was "two way," then Valeris could have seen in Spock's mind the exspected repercussions of Valeris's actions. The opportunity of peace gone, a resumption of hostilities, life's lost, life's destroyed, seen through Spock's eyes.

    Valeris screamed because she fully realize just what she's done.

    But, that he wasn't going to get that location is something that is known only in hindsight. Until Spock went "digging" through Valeris mind, he didn't know that the location wasn't in her mental possession. Until the mind meld he had every reason to think (or hope) that Valeris was a upper level conspirator with the full plan residing in her head. it was only after, that Spock learned that her knowledge was limited.

    If that first man's freedom that's trodden upon is a criminal, we're not all damages, we're all saved, we're all secured, we're all protected, every one of us. This meaningless recital is Picard at his addle-minded worst.

    Excuse my language, but what bullshit.

    Repercussions like the personal gratitude of the leaders of both the Federation and the Empire? Maybe a big shiny medal?

    Protege of Spock. Spock very easily could have accompanied Kirk and McCoy to the Klingon ship, this didn't stop Valeris in her actions. And regardless of the uniform she was wearing, no she wasn't in any way "serving" with the people aboard the Enterprise.

    :)
     
  3. Captain Atkin

    Captain Atkin Captain Captain

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    The President was about to be assassinated. Spock did what he had to do for the good of the many. This was not a black and white situation, as some of you are trying to make it out as. The clock was ticking, and he had to act fast to prevent a leader from being killed, and the galaxy being plunged into war. The information she was hiding in her head was vital to the protection of the Federation and Klingon Empire.

    Valeris was a traitor, and a murderer. She killed the two other men who were helping her on the Enterprise (who were also killers themselves, but regardless.) If she were an American citizen living today, she would have been executed for her crimes. Spock saved millions of lives by his actions on the bridge. The end justified the means. A few seconds of discomfort for Valeris was all she had to endure. This was not some prolonged torture that went on for days. It was quick and effective, and it saved lives.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2011
  4. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I suppose it's possible that mind-melds are subject to inquiry in much the same way captains are court-martialed when a ship is lost even if it's a foregone conclusion that they did everything they could to avoid the loss of the vessel.

    That being said, who would want to watch a documentary about Spock facing a board of inquiry for mind-melding with Valeris? Not I. I suspect the most he'd get is a slap on the wrist under the circumstances.

    Also, those citing personal freedoms might want to remember that Valeris was part of Starfleet, as was Spock. Joining the "military" means you've voluntarily waived some of your freedoms. For all we know there's a clause in your contract stating that you might be subjected to a mind-meld at any time if you are believed to be compromising the security of the Federation.

    Heck, for all we know that's a Federation law in general...unlikely, but not impossible...how much do we actually know about the judicial systems of the Federation in any case?
     
  5. EliyahuQeoni

    EliyahuQeoni Commodore Commodore

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    Um, how do those quotes show him being an "emotional mess"? They sound like the words of a well adjusted person who has found balance in his life, which as a younger man he never had. Hardly a "mess"
     
  6. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination

    come on try some reading comprehension, will you? The person wrote "don't argue," and what do you do....;)
     
  7. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    For Spock, he is an emotional mess.

    "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end."

    "You look like you've seen a ghost."
    "Perhaps I have, Captain. Perhaps I have."

    Compare this to some of his disdain for human emotion in the original series. He has embraced his human side. He's practically oozing sentimentality in Star Trek VI.
     
  8. EliyahuQeoni

    EliyahuQeoni Commodore Commodore

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    Embracing his human side doesn't equal "emotional mess.
     
  9. Jetboogieman

    Jetboogieman Commander Red Shirt

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    I must concur.

    Further more, through logic i believe Spock realized, to become a more complete, wiser and stronger mind and individual, he had to embrace all that was part of him.

    Having said that

    Kirk - Spock, everyones human
    Spock - i find that comment, insulting.
     
  10. Ziriath

    Ziriath Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    It seemed to me like a traditional Spock's reply. He had to say it even it's possible he doesnt find it insulting anymore.
    On the other side, as a human, I would find his comments on humanity quite insulting too, if he meant them seriously. Especially when all his friends, except Saavik and Valeris, were humans.
     
  11. balls

    balls Commander Red Shirt

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    Kind of like in TFF, "...maybe God's not out there...he's in here..the human heart."

    Maybe Azetbur was right in the dinner scene about the Federation being a homosapiens club.
     
  12. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's why it's poorly written. They don't seem to know where they are taking Spock.
     
  13. Jetboogieman

    Jetboogieman Commander Red Shirt

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    Or if you put it in context, it was a quip between friends.

    I'd say Spocks character is consistent.
     
  14. Cadet49

    Cadet49 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    In the real world, I would say Spock might have to do time for several of his decisions in this movie. I mean, he crossed the Klingon border to rescue Kirk and McCoy, after the Klingon chancellor had specifically stated that any attempt to rescue them would be considered an immediate "act of war". If the Enterprise had been discovered, it likely would have been destroyed immediately by Klingon forces, and the fact they were trying to illegally extract Kirk from prison, after he had gone through a trial, likely would have just confirmed to many Klingons that Kirk was in fact guilty of Gorkon's murder ... after all, they thought Kirk gave the orders to fire on Gorkon's ship, and it would have been Kirk's crew that fired those torpedoes - now they're caught sneaking around Klingon space. Spock risked a lot of lives with that move. Whatever happened to the "needs of the many"? (...and how many times did we hear Kirk tell crew members to "keep the ship out of danger" when they suggested coming back to rescue him in a dangerous situation?). This, along with the whole forced mind meld thing, really seemed out of character to me for Spock ...
     
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^The Spock who was willing to throw his career away for Captain Pike, or the Spock who advocated saving Chekov in TVH because it was "the human thing to do"?
     
  16. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Nimoy knows exactly where they are taking Spock. His acting and delivery choices for the post-death Spock, one who now embraces his humanity, are all carefully made. See "I Am Spock", Nimoy's second autobiography.
     
  17. David cgc

    David cgc Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Forgot "post-death." It goes all the way back to TMP. He tried being Mr. Logic, and then he saw the ultimate expression of it in V'ger and decided he wanted nothing of it. "This simple feeling is beyond V'ger's comprehension." "Not for us. For V'ger. I weep for V'ger as I would for a brother."

    Spock is far more relaxed in TWOK, continuing on from this character development. Can you imagine TOS-Spock being as sympathetic and gentle with Kirk in the scene where he convinces Kirk to take over the ship? The lines may have been, but the context and delivery would've been totally different.

    I wouldn't call that an "emotional mess." On the contrary, I'd say he'd found serenity. A Spock that can say to his mother that he feels fine, and acknowledge that logic isn't the be-all and end-all is a Spock that won't start crying about how he could never tell his mother he loved her, or fly into a rage when someone calls him a circus freak. TOS-Spock was the barely-stable, emotionally repressed nutcase. You can see it in so many words in Trek XI, where Old Spock is at peace with being sad about everything that happened, while Young Spock is tense as a cat on water skis holding his feelings back, culminating him trying to choke Kirk to death.
     
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  18. Bhub

    Bhub Cadet Newbie

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    1. She already confessed before the mind meld, so she’s not a victim.
    2. Starfleet, with its military function, will do harm for the greater good.
    3. A mind meld is shared, they became one. Valeris was feeling Spock’s human side and she was horrified by the experience Spock’s death.
    4. Spock is half human, and he was shaken to have revisited his death.
    The scene was perfectly great.
     
  19. ralfy

    ralfy Commander Red Shirt

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    For some reason, I found the scene erotic, and felt that Spock was shaken after the procedure because through the mind meld he and Valeris exposed their attraction to each other.
     
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  20. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Hi Bhub, and welcome. FYI, this thread has been dead for 6.5 years. The moderators don't live us revivifying corpses that long buried.
     
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