Did Sisko commit a war crime?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by jonds91, Jun 23, 2017.

  1. Arpy

    Arpy Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I was referring to, "Whatever you say, Locutus." You could almost see him slouching back in his chair, legs out, playing on his iPhone, like, "Whatever you say, dad." {pops gum}

    "To your quarters without dinner...for thirty years, Mr. Sisko!"

    "You'll never understand me! You want me to wait six months while the bureaucrats sit around reading reports, trying to figure out what to do? They don't know what's going on out here! Lives were at stake! ...It...it smells musty in here...like a bureaucrat's office!"

    (Captain Maxwell) "Ben, as your counsel, I don't suggest that line of defense in this situation..."

    EDIT: I realize I'm kinda egging on further jokes with this, but, I decided to include it for fellow fans because, come on, it's a good one. I like Sisko, but some of the stuff they had him doing was reaching.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
  2. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Picard must have felt really ashamed after the first meeting with Sisko, and after the second, Picard must must have had a really bad feeling about him.
     
  3. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    Sisko should never have been allowed on his personal vendetta. If I was an admiral I would have kept him on a tighter leash.
     
  4. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Are we sure we know who has chips on their shoulders around here?
     
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  5. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    Not me, if that's who your referring to.
     
  6. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not specifically.
     
  7. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Do I get a chip?
     
  8. SoullessMinion

    SoullessMinion Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    You get a chip! You get a chip! Everybody gets a chip!
     
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  9. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    To answer the Op's question I'd say yes in For the Uniform, he engaged in blatant criminality in In the Pale Moonlight-that if the Romulans found out they'd have legal right to go to war over.

    Sisko thanks to his strategic command and the war situation was given authority comparable to general-governor or a colonial viceroy. Perhaps even a lord.

    He was given way to much leeway by the admiralty in my opinion. His actions were often rash, belligerent, and with minimal oversight.

    Now yes he did get the job done most of the time and apparently the Admiralty allowed him a lot of leeway to handle things as he deemed fit. But I can't say if I was one of them I would have done the same.

    A fleet captain in peacetime would not have been allowed the same leeway.

    Also his status with the Bajorans if anything gave him more clout, poltical clout on a strategically located planet with a war and Cold War situation looming.

    Not to mention the inscrutable wormhole aliens who Sisko more and more was loyal to. Given Starfleet's past interactions with quite many God beings any admiral with his or her salt had to know that would be a liability at some point or another.

    In fact I'd argue given Sisko's political position, the war, and his relationship with the aliens he should have been under more supervision.
     
  10. velour

    velour Commander Red Shirt

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    At the end of the episode "For the Uniform", Dax asked Sisko if Sisko had "clear(ed) it with Starfleet first" (the use of biogenic weapons). He said he had not. Sisko did not have authority to do what he did.

    The irony was that the Federation fought a devastating war with the Cardassians anyway. I guess it was much easier for the Federation to pick on the Maquis than confront the mightier Cardassians.

    Kira made a great point in "The Maquis", when she told Sisko, "I can tell you one thing for certain. The Cardassians are the enemy, not your own colonists, and if Starfleet can't understand that, then the Federation is even more naïve than I already think it is."

    What I found to be really distasteful was how different the Feds treated the Maquis compared to how they dealt with the Klingons.

    The Federation was relentless against the Maquis. I don't remember if the Federation even bothered to switch sides and back the Maquis after the Cardassians formed their alliance with the Dominion against the Federation. I don't think the Federation shed a tear when the Cardassians/Dominion wiped out the Maquis humans, even though the Federation essentially sold out the Maquis in the first place.

    Compare that to how the Federation dealt with their fair weathered ally the Klingons. The Klingons invaded Cardassia and along the way attacked DS9. The Klingons basically declared war on the Feds. Yet the Feds welcomed them back with open arms and declared the Khitomer treaty back in force after the Cardassian Dominion alliance began their invasion of the alpha quadrant. The Feds essentially forgive and forget what the Klingons did, but they couldn't do the same for their fellow humans, the Maquis.
     
  11. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Feds obviously didn't anticipate the Cardassians joining The Dominion, and in fact it's unclear how much of that was really the Cardassians' decision versus Dukat forcing their hand.

    In retrospect it seems like an obvious possibility, but it's easy to look back at a military situation and claim that if you'd been in their shoes you would have handled things better.

    The Federation wasn't "picking on" The Maquis. They offered The Maquis a chance to be safe which they blatantly turned down in favor of aggravating a political hotspot that could have metastasized into a war. A war that at that point the Federation government didn't feel they could afford. It would be like me, as a Vermonter, bullying my neighors in Canada with no regard for the possibility that Canada might then declare war on the entirety of the US. Who would win isn't even material, because the war itself would be horrific.

    The Federation treated the Klingons with care because, again, a full-out war with them (as shown) was a losing proposition for both sides, especially with The Dominion waiting to mop up anyone who survived. It's easy to say the Feds shouldn't have made peace with the Klingons; what would you have preferred, exactly?

    Once the Cardassians joined The Dominion they attacked The Maquis so swiftly that there was nothing left to defend. It's likely the Feds took in Maquis refugees, because why not? Wouldn't mean they shouldn't face charges for any potential crimes they committed during their "holy war", though. If the Maquis actions weren't religious (and in the case of the Native American types...) they were certainly based on ideology more than practical reasons.

    Please cite some supporting evidence for claims that the Feds were heartless regarding the situation.
     
  12. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    The Federation wasn't heartless as it was motivated more by cynical and astropolitical concerns. So what did it do? It collaborated with Dukat and intervened in what was a Maquis-Cardassian conflict.

    The Maquis only attacked Federation targets when the Federation attempted to interdict their ships or intervene against their operations.

    Now yes the Federation did support the Maquis covertly as well. Captains would look the other way, officers and ships would defect, and Starfleet intelligence probably was supporting them at least partially.

    Sort of like Northern Ireland-with the British government collaborating with and looking the other way with regards to the loyalists while also cracking down on them.

    But the Maquis needed as much help they could get and by For the Uniform didn't appear IMHO dependent on external aid. They had received a lot of aid-from Federation, Klingon, and probably black market and other back channel sources. By that point I think they could manage on their own.

    Eddington did use WMDs but I imagine the Cardassians did the same and weren't civilized in how they prosecuted the conflict with Maquis by any standard. Apparently Eddington's leadership, knowledge of both Cardassian and Federation technology and tactics, and use of WMDs and probably other methods forced the Cardassians from the DMZ during a time in which the cardassian empire was tottering under mounting political instability and a war against the Klingons in which they had been severely thrashed.

    A Maquis State in the DMZ was a real possibility.
     
  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't see that as much of a possibility. I don't see the Maquis having the infrastructure to remain free for long, and end up as a Klingon serfdom.
     
  14. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^Yep. The Maquis only got as far as they did because nobody had the will to show them what real military force involved, and their blindness to larger galactic affairs was unforgivable. If it hadn't been The Dominion, it would have been the Cardassians or the Klingons...or even the Feds, if an all-out war became a real possibility.

    Those people accusing the Feds of beating up on The Maquis might be well-advised to consider what would have happened if even one of the fleets shown during the Dominion War had been tasked to solve the Maquis problem in the interests of securing peace for the AQ rather than fight The Dominion.
     
  15. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    The Klingons had their own issues and the Maquis did have WMDs-states have handled playing off bigger powers before.

    The Maquis could be like the Armenians of Star Trek playing off rival empires and states while swearing vassalage, and keeping independence through military force, espionage, and diplomacy.
     
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    What issues did the Klingons have that would have prevented them from either conquering The Maquis or bombing them back to the stone age?
     
  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But, they lack the show of force that would keep the Klingons at bay. How many WMDs did the Maquis have and could they hold off the Klingon Empire?

    My honest guess, as much as I love the idea of an independent frontier world (someone should make a show about a frontier style space opera with Civil War analogues) I just don't see them holding up, especially with Eddington's delusions of grandeur
     
  18. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    Changeling infiltrators, cooled relations with the Federation, occupying Cardassian territory.

    The Maquis had former Starfleet members quite a few who had diplomatic experience with the Klingons. So they could play the game.
     
  19. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think you seriously overestimate The Maquis.
     
  20. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    I think you underestimate the Maquis.

    The Maquis as an independent state would most certainly be vulnerable and would need to quick develop diplomatic and intelligence capabilities quickly.

    I'll concede they might be a mouse among the lions but mice have done fine in worse circumstances.

    A Maquis state would need to hold its own and jealously guard its borders and people.

    Defeating the Cardassians and holding off Federation attempts at reprisal would probably give it enough credibility to seek and gain diplomatic recognition from the AQ/BQ powers.

    From there they develop trade and military ties-and hold seek to forge a state for their themselves.

    Could they fail? Yes. But it would be inspiring to see them succeed.