Did Pike replace Garth as Fleet Captain?

[JonnyQuest037]

Whats wrong with "Tholian Web"? I never regret watching that episode.

To specifically criticize most third season eps, I'd have to rewatch them to familiarize myself with them again. I just don't know them as well as the ones from the first two seasons.

But outside of the campiness and the plot holes, even little stuff from the third season bugs me. Like the purple transporter room, the new material they used for the uniform shirts, Scotty's unflattering hairstyles. They all look so wrong to me.

So yeah, I don't watch the third season much. But hey, I know it at least well enough to come up with the Pike/Garth/Fleet Captain theory above (see how I'm valiantly trying to bring the thread back on topic? ).

 

[Phaser Two]

I mean, once in a great while, I have the urge to rewatch a third season ep, but I usually regret it after I do. I'm always going to be rewatching the first two seasons more.

Sure. I can perfectly understand that. I'm a bit unusual in that overall I prefer S3 by a hair over S1, but when I say that I really need to note that I consider many outstanding installments of S1, mostly toward the end of a really large season by number of eps, more a part of or akin to S2, which is my favorite. Errand, DITD, City, Taste Of Armageddon, Operation: Annihilate, and even Arena (though earlier) feel like S2 eps to me.

Anyway, like Commishsleer said, Tholian Web is outstanding. Wink of an Eye is my fourth-favorite in the series. Heck, that awesome Savage Curtain thread going on right now shows what a treasure trove that ep was despite a few flaws. The torture scenes in Plato and some of Eden and Turnabout are the only things in S3 I would offer to spare my GF when I finally decide to do a rewatch with her seeing them for the first time. Granted, EI is possibly the most overrated ep in TOS, LTBYLB and ITITNB have some serious dialogue and pacing issues, and MOG's Enterprise replica demands complete and total handwaving to get past the first five minutes. I even enjoy most of ATCSL and SB.

And on edit, yeah, sorry for the hijack job. Garth, Chris Pike, fleet captain. A Starfleet-only rank with no direct analogue to Earth navies, or maybe they split the O-6 rank and awarded only one or two officers at a time that third full stripe. Sort of like the Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

So I rewatched both "The Tholian Web" and "Whom Gods Destroy" last night, to see if they point one way or another for when Garth's incarceration might have taken place. And despite my really liking the idea of Pike being promoted to Fleet Captain as a publicity move to replace the insane Captain Garth, I'm now thinking it was fairly likely that Garth's insanity happened fairly recently, sometime between TTW and WGD.

My thoughts on the episodes in general (they were my first viewings in a while, and I thought that @Phaser Two might enjoy that I watched two S3 episodes):

"The Tholian Web" is a pretty good episode, especially for the third season, but I feel like it was trying to do a few too many things at once. We have the crew trying to solve the mystery of the Defiant, mourning the presumed-dead Captain Kirk, dealing with the spread of madness throughout the ship, and encountering the Tholians and their web trap. I think if they concentrated on just half of those elements, the episode would've been more effective as a whole. The titular web barely figures into the story, except as a device to keep the Enterprise stuck in one place. And there are a few moments that just play as campier than intended, like when the crewman freaks out in the middle of Kirk's memorial service. I also wondered why in the world Uhura was putting on a necklace when she was apparently getting ready for bed. So overall decent, but not one I'll be rewatching again very soon.

"Whom Gods Destroy" is okay at best. It's a bit too reminiscent of "Dagger of the Mind," with the inmates taking over the asylum idea, and often plays as a campier version of that episode. The performances of Ihnat and Shatner are rather over the top at times. The moment where Marta is blown up also plays as more silly than horrifying. It's also rather slow, with several repetitive scenes of Garth trying to beam up to the Enterprise but being stymied by the 3D chess passcode and Marta trying to seduce Kirk. I feel like this was probably a reflection of the slashed third season budget, as the writers couldn't really take their story anywhere besides the few standing sets they were allowed. There's also a LOT of recycled costumes and makeups, with Garth wearing hand-me-downs from Commissioner Ferris from "The Galileo Seven" and Kodos from "The Conscience of the King" and his fellow inmates dressed as the ambassadors from "Journey to Babel." Yvonne Craig looks great, but she's not as memorable an Orion Slave Girl as Susan Oliver in "The Cage." I find this one most intriguing for the hints it gives of early Federation/Starfleet history (Garth as Starfleet's greatest Captain, his victory at Axanar, the Axanar Peace Mission that Kirk participated in as a "new-fledged cadet," etc.).

 

[MAGolding]

So I rewatched both "The Tholian Web" and "Whom Gods Destroy" last night, to see if they point one way or another for when Garth's incarceration might have taken place. And despite my really liking the idea of Pike being promoted to Fleet Captain as a publicity move to replace the insane Captain Garth, I'm now thinking it was fairly likely that Garth's insanity happened fairly recently, sometime between TTW and WGD....

...I also wondered why in the world Uhura was putting on a necklace when she was apparently getting ready for bed...

I have had the creepy idea that possibly Uhura when off duty was getting dressed up to prepare to commit suicide instead of waiting around to turn into a homicidal maniac. But when she saw Kirk she thought that was important enough to rush out and find someone to tell.

 

[johnnybear]

At the time I'd never seen Steve Inhat act like that in any other television series so I found it a bit forced to be honest! It's still not one of my favourite episodes either...
JB

 

[Phaser Two]

So I rewatched both "The Tholian Web" and "Whom Gods Destroy" last night, to see if they point one way or another for when Garth's incarceration might have taken place. And despite my really liking the idea of Pike being promoted to Fleet Captain as a publicity move to replace the insane Captain Garth, I'm now thinking it was fairly likely that Garth's insanity happened fairly recently, sometime between TTW and WGD.

My thoughts on the episodes in general (they were my first viewings in a while, and I thought that @Phaser Two might enjoy that I watched two S3 episodes):

"The Tholian Web" is a pretty good episode, especially for the third season, but I feel like it was trying to do a few too many things at once. We have the crew trying to solve the mystery of the Defiant, mourning the presumed-dead Captain Kirk, dealing with the spread of madness throughout the ship, and encountering the Tholians and their web trap. I think if they concentrated on just half of those elements, the episode would've been more effective as a whole. The titular web barely figures into the story, except as a device to keep the Enterprise stuck in one place. And there are a few moments that just play as campier than intended, like when the crewman freaks out in the middle of Kirk's memorial service. I also wondered why in the world Uhura was putting on a necklace when she was apparently getting ready for bed. So overall decent, but not one I'll be rewatching again very soon.

"Whom Gods Destroy" is okay at best. It's a bit too reminiscent of "Dagger of the Mind," with the inmates taking over the asylum idea, and often plays as a campier version of that episode. The performances of Ihnat and Shatner are rather over the top at times. The moment where Marta is blown up also plays as more silly than horrifying. It's also rather slow, with several repetitive scenes of Garth trying to beam up to the Enterprise but being stymied by the 3D chess passcode and Marta trying to seduce Kirk. I feel like this was probably a reflection of the slashed third season budget, as the writers couldn't really take their story anywhere besides the few standing sets they were allowed. There's also a LOT of recycled costumes and makeups, with Garth wearing hand-me-downs from Commissioner Ferris from "The Galileo Seven" and Kodos from "The Conscience of the King" and his fellow inmates dressed as the ambassadors from "Journey to Babel." Yvonne Craig looks great, but she's not as memorable an Orion Slave Girl as Susan Oliver in "The Cage." I find this one most intriguing for the hints it gives of early Federation/Starfleet history (Garth as Starfleet's greatest Captain, his victory at Axanar, the Axanar Peace Mission that Kirk participated in as a "new-fledged cadet," etc.).

Yes!!! I *do* enjoy that you watched some S3 offerings, Jonny! [wild clapping] Thanks for tagging me so I'd see that.

So, you rewatched The Tholian Web on the PIke/Garth fleet captain issue because of the "never been a mutiny" comments? In any case I like your conclusion. It gives more impact and weight to WGD if Garth's unfortunate insanity just happened.

On The Tholian Web, your point about too much going on at once is an interesting criticism that I don't think I've ever heard before. Well stated. I would counter that the episode succeeds because - like many other superb TOS offerings like City on the Edge - it packs a ton of stuff into its roughly 50 minutes of running time. It's always hard for me to believe, at the end of TTW, that so much happened. (And in a short space of time in universe, too - unlike City, e.g.) The Tholians are a necessary plot device to amplify the ticking clock, but they're very interesting. I agree that the insane guy in the chapel comes a little out of nowhere but I like the way the scene is blocked when the guy flips out, and Scotty stepping up as first officer (as he also does, but for Kirk, in Spock's Brain) to call everyone to attention and dismiss everyone is just great. Beyond that, I love everything about the Defiant and those scenes are genuinely creepy and foreboding. The dialogue is outstanding throughout. Oh, and maybe someone of African heritage can offer some thoughts, but I always got the impression Uhura was planning to mediate for a bit before bed, and the necklace was a part of that somehow. In any case this episode will never leave my Top 10 and it has almost infinite rewatchability for me.

On WGD, more good points. This is not an S3 offering I enjoy as much as I do many others, although I don't dislike it. Some of the inmates-running-the-asylum scenes are a little goofy and the whole thing with Marta getting blown up is a little unwieldy as you noted. (I thought Yvonne Craig was terrific, though.) Shatner is over-the-top as Garth playing Kirk, but very restrained, collected, and powerful as Kirk, and a delight in the "two Kirks greet Spock" scene. Scotty in command (this time with Bones as a foil) is always terrific. I'm a chess player (not on Kirk and Spock's level, that's for darn sure), so the code scenes are wonderful to watch for me. And isn't it refreshing that the Enterprise, so often taken over by hostile forces, implemented a security protocol here THAT ACTUALLY WORKED? You raise great points about the pieces of Starfleet history; those are very intriguing. I think the end with "Should I know you, sir?" is very moving. Of course the largest flaw - and IIRC one that really ground Nimoy's gears - is Spock's failure to stun *both* "Kirks" at the end, call up to the ship with the correct countersign, arrange for a massive landing party of armed redshirts, and then sort out which Kirk was which. However, maybe Spock didn't want to have the Enterprise lower its shields and become exposed to attack and boarding, instead preferring to wait until Garth's energy consumption caused him to revert to his true form. Which is pretty much what he says. Anyway, I think Nimoy did a nice job acting out a scene that he quite disliked. Now I need to watch this one again because it's been a while.

Watch some more! Wink of an Eye! Wink of an Eye!!

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Yes!!! I *do* enjoy that you watched some S3 offerings, Jonny! [wild clapping] Thanks for tagging me so I'd see that.

No problem!

So, you rewatched The Tholian Web on the PIke/Garth fleet captain issue because of the "never been a mutiny" comments?

Yeah. It was as good of an excuse as any to check the episodes out again. And they were kind of fun because they weren't as familiar to me as the other episodes I've seen more often.

In any case I like your conclusion. It gives more impact and weight to WGD if Garth's unfortunate insanity just happened.

Yeah, I agree. Although WGD never outright says that Garth was just recently committed to Elba II, it certainly seems to imply as much. And it's certainly the simplest way to resolve the discrepancy between the two episodes. Thank goodness that TTW was filmed before WGD!

Scotty stepping up as first officer (as he also does, but for Kirk, in Spock's Brain) to call everyone to attention and dismiss everyone is just great.

That scene was kind of ruined for me by the Nitpicker's Guide. Phil Farrand pointed out that when Scotty calls for the crew to stand at attention, some people stand with their arms clasped behind them, some at the front, and some with their arms at their sides. As he wrote, "if that's standing at attention, what the heck does 'at ease' look like?"

And isn't it refreshing that the Enterprise, so often taken over by hostile forces, implemented a security protocol here THAT ACTUALLY WORKED?

I guess it did. I think of it more as just a device to keep Kirk and Spock in danger on the surface without the ship bailing them out, though, as we saw in many an episode. Usually they'd just do that by having their phasers and communicators taken away.

Of course the largest flaw - and IIRC one that really ground Nimoy's gears - is Spock's failure to stun *both* "Kirks" at the end, call up to the ship with the correct countersign, arrange for a massive landing party of armed redshirts, and then sort out which Kirk was which.

Yeah, that's a definite plot hole, and I remember Nimoy's rather scathing memo on WGD. I particularly loved him saying they'd basically already filmed the same story as "Dagger of the Mind" in season one. He also wrote that since he didn't have much experience playing an idiot, maybe he should practice saying, "Ugh, Kemo Sabe" to Kirk.

Another obvious plot hole I don't think I noted above: If the Enterprise is there to distribute medicine to the patients, why the heck did Kirk beam down with Spock instead of Dr. McCoy? It only makes sense to take your CMO along on a medical mission.

Watch some more! Wink of an Eye! Wink of an Eye!!

Heh... It's funny that you say that. I often cue up TOS episodes on Netflix to engage my brain as I'm falling asleep. It's nice to have something familiar to watch/listen to as I try to rest. Last night I started up "Wink of an Eye" as I was conking out for the day. I didn't follow too much of it, though, because it's not very dialogue heavy early on. I'll probably give it another shot later on this week.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

So I was mistaken at the end of my previous post. The episode I cued up a few nights ago was "The Mark of Gideon," not "Wink of an Eye." Nevertheless, I watched "Wink of an Eye" last night and thought it was all right, particularly the first act, when Kirk & the crew are trying to solve the mystery of the Scalosians. It's definitely one of the better episodes of the third season.

Yeah, a lot of bits don't make sense, like how sometimes the slow-moving crew members don't seem to be moving at all, or how all the doors are suddenly conveniently open for the super-accelerated folks, but "Wink of an Eye" will probably be going on my list of underrated TOS episodes, along with "A Private Little War."

I'll probably watch "Mark of Gideon" later on this week and see how I like that one.

 

[Commishsleer]

Yeah, a lot of bits don't make sense, like how sometimes the slow-moving crew members don't seem to be moving at all, or how all the doors are suddenly conveniently open for the super-accelerated folks, but "Wink of an Eye" will probably be going on my list of underrated TOS episodes, along with "A Private Little War."

I just remember Scotty standing still in the transporter room for about a quarter of the episode. If he moved only inches in that time there is no way Spock could have gone from the bridge to sickbay and back again in the time he did. That always annoys me about that episode.

 

[J.T.B.]

On the OP, what I've wondered is: Why "fleet captain," basically a made-up title? S1 ranks were somewhat vague and in flux, but that title was introduced in an episode where "commodore" is also used, so it seems like an intentional distinction was being made. They also mention that Pike was "about" Kirk's age (which is odd in itself since he commanded Enterprise for at least 11 years). Were they trying to emphasize that Pike was still a young man, de-emphasizing his seniority to Kirk, while a commodore would be more of an older generation? (Malachi Throne was not much older than Shatner, but he looked older.) Or were they just trying out more "spacey" rank titles that were not as Earth-naval as they would later turn out to be?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

On the OP, what I've wondered is: Why "fleet captain," basically a made-up title? S1 ranks were somewhat vague and in flux, but that title was introduced in an episode where "commodore" is also used, so it seems like an intentional distinction was being made.

As noted previously, "fleet captain" may have been an anachronistic title (replaced by '(admiral's) chief of staff' during the late 19th Century in the RW), but it wasn't 'made up' by the Star Trek production team.

 

[J.T.B.]

As noted previously, "fleet captain" may have been an anachronistic title (replaced by '(admiral's) chief of staff' during the late 19th Century in the RW), but it wasn't 'made up' by the Star Trek production team.

Yeah, I know, I'm the one who finally put a historical document citation into Wikipedia after years of bogus info in their article on the subject. But I said "basically made-up" because the term wasn't widely known or used in the 1960s, and even if it was it seemed to be re-purposed in TOS into a rank instead of a staff position.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Ok, fair point.

It may also have been an attempt to make Starfleet seem less Anglo-centric, as most well known navies other than the US or Commonwealth have 2-3 ranks for captains, and 'fleet captain', 'starship captain' and 'captain' (commander equivalent rank of ships like the Antares from "Charlie X" probably seemed less 'communist' than '1st', '2nd' and '3rd' or 'senior' and 'junior'.

 

[J.T.B.]

It may also have been an attempt to make Starfleet seem less Anglo-centric, as most well known navies other than the US or Commonwealth have 2-3 ranks for captains, and 'fleet captain', 'starship captain' and 'captain' (commander equivalent rank of ships like the Antares from "Charlie X" probably seemed less 'communist' than '1st', '2nd' and '3rd' or 'senior' and 'junior

I doubt that was much of a consideration. That's pretty obscure information now, and before the internet it was REALLY obscure. Nobody would know what foreign ranks were like, unless they had some really specific experience or interests.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

On the OP, what I've wondered is: Why "fleet captain," basically a made-up title? S1 ranks were somewhat vague and in flux, but that title was introduced in an episode where "commodore" is also used, so it seems like an intentional distinction was being made. They also mention that Pike was "about" Kirk's age (which is odd in itself since he commanded Enterprise for at least 11 years). Were they trying to emphasize that Pike was still a young man, de-emphasizing his seniority to Kirk, while a commodore would be more of an older generation? (Malachi Throne was not much older than Shatner, but he looked older.) Or were they just trying out more "spacey" rank titles that were not as Earth-naval as they would later turn out to be?

Not commenting in any way on why the TOS makers picked "fleet captain," I've always speculated that a space navy, at least one with FTL, would demand a more extensive hierarchy of ranks above ship captain, owing to the increased number of ships, as compared to a planetary (water) navy. On its face, a rank of fleet captain in between captain and commodore suggests a qualification to command multiple ships while not necessarily being a flag officer; that consideration would seem to fit the bill of extending the hierarchy to accommodate a larger navy.

As to what Commodore Decker was commanding evidently out on the frontier, maybe he had the prerogative to command a starship on a five-year mission instead of staying back at a starbase and be responsible for more than one ship, even though he could have also chosen the latter.

 

[thribs]

I'm sure there is more than one fleet captain. There are many fleets.