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Did Neelix really 'get better'?

The first season or two he annoyed the heck out of me...especially when he was so cloying and clingy with Kess. I liked him better after they broke up.

As time went on he seemed to settle down and fit in and I didn't mind him so much.

The reason I'm asking is because we just finished our TNG re-watch and we are about to start on Voyager. Husband isn't like us.;) He likes Trek in a casual way. He won't watch his favorite episodes over and over again like I do.

He has not seen Voyager since its original run and even then he watched it sporadically (I believe he had work obligations at the time...can't remember). He does however seem to remember it being...funny.

Should I tell him that Neelix gets better or am I just in denial?

I am starting my "re-watch" of Voyager as well, just started with Season 3 and generally agree.

I agree that Neelix was rather annoying in the first two seasons, but after Kes broke up with him, and the show went on, he wasn't as annoying. In fact, he really started to fit in...especially after Seven joined.

I would probably make sure he watches the first episode to get the premise of the show. Then just cherry pick the best episodes after that until you get to season 3.
 
The first season or two he annoyed the heck out of me...especially when he was so cloying and clingy with Kess. I liked him better after they broke up.

As time went on he seemed to settle down and fit in and I didn't mind him so much.

The reason I'm asking is because we just finished our TNG re-watch and we are about to start on Voyager. Husband isn't like us.;) He likes Trek in a casual way. He won't watch his favorite episodes over and over again like I do.

He has not seen Voyager since its original run and even then he watched it sporadically (I believe he had work obligations at the time...can't remember). He does however seem to remember it being...funny.

Should I tell him that Neelix gets better or am I just in denial?

It's not just you. Neelix DID get better, MUCH better. In the early seasons he tried to act like a macho survival guide, which fooled no one and made him come across as an asshole a lot of the time. To say nothing of how he treated Kes when they were dating. Fast-forward a few seasons, and Neelix's main role is the moral officer. He's not irritable or obnoxious, he puts everyone else before himself, and his annoying tendencies are played for laughs, treated as something deliberate.

Basically, Neelix went from being an obnoxious Quark wannabe in the early seasons to the crew's spotted teddy bear in the later seasons.

Neelix isn't the only one. Chakotay and Janeway both became far more likable in later seasons IMO. A lot of characters' personalities just seem weird in early seasons. Janeway and B'Elanna are oddly weepy in a lot of early episodes; Chakotay acts like a stoned Indian stereotype; and Neelix was a jerk. All improved drastically as the series progressed, so much that it's almost like watching two different shows.
 
I am starting my "re-watch" of Voyager as well, just started with Season 3 and generally agree.

I agree that Neelix was rather annoying in the first two seasons, but after Kes broke up with him, and the show went on, he wasn't as annoying. In fact, he really started to fit in...especially after Seven joined.

I would probably make sure he watches the first episode to get the premise of the show. Then just cherry pick the best episodes after that until you get to season 3.

Too late. We are already up to State of Flux. He seems to be enjoying it. He vaguely remembers some of them like Time and Again but so far he has said nothing about Neelix. Its a bit of a relief. I admit I 'might' go on Netflix and surreptitiously 'skip ahead' passing over an episode here and there when he's not around. :D It looks like I might have been worrying for nothing.

It's not just you. Neelix DID get better, MUCH better. In the early seasons he tried to act like a macho survival guide, which fooled no one and made him come across as an asshole a lot of the time. To say nothing of how he treated Kes when they were dating. Fast-forward a few seasons, and Neelix's main role is the moral officer. He's not irritable or obnoxious, he puts everyone else before himself, and his annoying tendencies are played for laughs, treated as something deliberate.

Basically, Neelix went from being an obnoxious Quark wannabe in the early seasons to the crew's spotted teddy bear in the later seasons.

Neelix isn't the only one. Chakotay and Janeway both became far more likable in later seasons IMO. A lot of characters' personalities just seem weird in early seasons. Janeway and B'Elanna are oddly weepy in a lot of early episodes; Chakotay acts like a stoned Indian stereotype; and Neelix was a jerk. All improved drastically as the series progressed, so much that it's almost like watching two different shows.

I agree. Its especially weird to go back and read the books set during the early seasons and to note how much the characters have changed. The Doctor, Tom and B'elanna really stand out to me.

Janeway's voice became less gravely over time. I think she must have stopped smoking or something.
 
Neelix's problem, I think, had to do with a lot of conflicting pieces - he was, I believe, meant to be the 'outsider alien who examines humans,' similar to Odo (in terms of what his character was supposed to offer as stories, anyway), but the Doctor ended up evolving into that role. He had this dark history and pain, his people having been at war during his formative years. His character was supposed to be hiding this darkness under a cheery facade.

The problem became that the writers ended up focusing mostly on that facade, forgetting a lot about that past. And, at the same time, that past was what influenced his behavior with Kes - he was insanely jealous and clingy towards her because she was pretty much the first person he'd cared for since his family's death, and he was afraid of losing her. Unfortunately, that just came across most of the time as him being possessive of her. Fortunately, they toned that down, but they never explained it or returned their attention to those darker corners of his psyche.

So we end up with 'turn that frown upside down, Mister Vulcan!' from him, which a lot of people found unpalatable, instead of anything else that he could have or should have been. I don't really think it's a matter of him 'getting better' but just a matter of he ended up appearing less frequently in a given episode, unless he had a significant role to contribute for an episode, so we got him in smaller, more palatable doses.
 
I don't think he ever really got better, but he stopped being so annoying once you learned to tune him out. The peak of his awfulness were the episodes were he pawed mercilessly at Kes.

Ugh.
 
^True

I'm still not sure if his cooking was good or bad. Sometimes it felt like their jokes about it being bad were sincere but other times, it seemed like it was just friendly ribbing and they actually really liked it.

I do wish Tuvok had punched him at least once though.

I've often wondered if all Talaxian cooking was meant to be not palatable to non Talaxians or was it Neelix was just not a good cook. What he lacked in skill he made up for in enthusiasm. :)

I have this scenario in my head where he encounters someone he knew from before and tells them he is serving as a cook on a starship. And they say, "Please tell me you never poisoned anybody". That's not a very likely scenario though because his family is gone. :( And he seemed pretty much a loner except for Wixiban.
 
The first season or two he annoyed the heck out of me...especially when he was so cloying and clingy with Kess. I liked him better after they broke up.

As time went on he seemed to settle down and fit in and I didn't mind him so much.

The reason I'm asking is because we just finished our TNG re-watch and we are about to start on Voyager. Husband isn't like us.;) He likes Trek in a casual way. He won't watch his favorite episodes over and over again like I do.

He has not seen Voyager since its original run and even then he watched it sporadically (I believe he had work obligations at the time...can't remember). He does however seem to remember it being...funny.

Should I tell him that Neelix gets better or am I just in denial?

I haven't watched season 7 so I can't come up with any reviews about his behavior there.
But basicallly he was the same in all seasons.
 
I've been rewatching the early season for the first time in years, and I can safely say that he was definitely more annoying when Kes was still around. That said, after Kes left, he became pretty boring.
 
The first season or two he annoyed the heck out of me...especially when he was so cloying and clingy with Kess.
Yes, that was annoying and difficult to watch. But your subject of annoyance was misplaced. I was annoyed at the writers and embarrassed on their behalf. I questioned their own maturity for writing such crap.

I did enjoy his Tuvok moments. Especially when Tuvok "strangled" Neelix on the holodeck.
 
There's actually a school of thought that he's a much more fully fleshed-out character in ''Caretaker'', where he's sneaky and devious and not totally trustworthy, but that he gets immediately cartoonified in the episodes afterwards, becoming a comic relief ''funny'' alien, and that he only gradually rebuilds some sense of dignity and purpose again later on. He's a little bit like the Ferengi, in that respect.

Mind you, I guess we could say that everybody was a more fully fleshed-out character in ''Caretaker'' than they were for the episodes that followed. ;)
 
Voyager is definitely the funniest of the franchise.
I... actually think you're right. Of course it's not saying much, humour isn't exactly the franchise's strong suit. But yeah. They had their moments.
 
There's actually a school of thought that he's a much more fully fleshed-out character in ''Caretaker'', where he's sneaky and devious and not totally trustworthy, but that he gets immediately cartoonified in the episodes afterwards, becoming a comic relief ''funny'' alien, and that he only gradually rebuilds some sense of dignity and purpose again later on. He's a little bit like the Ferengi, in that respect.

Mind you, I guess we could say that everybody was a more fully fleshed-out character in ''Caretaker'' than they were for the episodes that followed. ;)

It seems like many TV shows are guilty of doing this (to me anyway). Characters seem more well rounded in the beginning and then seem to become caricatures of what the characters were originally intended to be.

Actually I think the Ferengi improved some as time went on. At least they became more fleshed out. Their first appearance in TNG reminded me of the flying monkeys from The Wizard of Oz.
 
I wish Neelix had less exclusive interaction with the bridge crew.
It would have been cool if he had stories where he was getting involved with a squabble between the bio-lab and maintenance.
Stuff like that.
He would always be talking about interesting goings-on and people that the main characters had never heard of, 'cause of how they stick together obsessively.
 
Voyager is definitely the funniest of the franchise.
I... actually think you're right. Of course it's not saying much, humour isn't exactly the franchise's strong suit. But yeah. They had their moments.

Fair Haven maybe? Come on, DS9 had banter between Bashir and O'Brien, Quark and Odo, Garak and Bashir, the tribbles episode, the spy episode, In the Cards, One Little Ship...
 
I think VOY had a great sense of humor about itself, which I think is due to the chemistry between the actors.
 
Voyager is definitely the funniest of the franchise.
I... actually think you're right. Of course it's not saying much, humour isn't exactly the franchise's strong suit. But yeah. They had their moments.

Fair Haven maybe? Come on, DS9 had banter between Bashir and O'Brien, Quark and Odo, Garak and Bashir, the tribbles episode, the spy episode, In the Cards, One Little Ship...

I never thought Bashire and O'Brien were all that funny and Quark and Odo got predictable. The episodes you mentioned were pretty funny though.
 
No. He wasn't self-revelatory in the beginning, but that doesn't mean that the traits he displayed couldn't be seen in a different light if given more thought than relying on surface impressions. Well, at least, one doesn't see the incessant Jar Jar Binks crap, at least not here any more.

I think that his behavior was always led by the same drivers, although we didn't know about most of his backstory and the meanings behind his motivations for quite a while. Still, I think that the behavior we saw in the first year or so makes sense, even with our limited knowledge. Why the brashness and braggadocio when he found that he had serendipitously scored a jackpot by coming across Voyager? Well, in some part, I think one can relate that to the relative lack of social interaction that had been his lot for a while and also just not realizing the wisdom of curbing his exuberance given the structure and organization of where he found himself. Beyond that, I think it's plausible to consider that having had to live alone, relying on his wits, he might very well feel that being on such an advanced vessel with aliens that seemed friendly enough, he still had to be wary and projecting a vociferous, argumentative, and apparently self-confident persona would protect him from being perceived as weak and replete with vulnerabilities.

In a similar way, the extreme possessiveness of Kes during the first season and in snippets afterwards can be seen in the light of what is apparent from Caretaker, that he is cognizant of the rare and extraordinary character that is ineluctably apparent, if for no other reason that she has done what few if any other Ocampans had the determination or interest to do, escape from their comfortable tomb. Even without any intimation of the psionic powers Kes would come to display, Neelix instinctively understood what a precious and, from his perspective, undeserved gift that their relationship had bestowed on him. On Voyager, I believe that he endeavored to take as prime and integral a role in shipboard life as he did, not just to justify his value to the crew, but while unstated perhaps, to Kes as well. But being in the midst of a large number of men, some of whom would also be inevitably attracted to her, Neelix was unable to discern that her unquestioning devotion for him far outweighed, in fact negated, his persistent self-doubts, and felt compelled to fight the non-existent threats by trying to ever tighten their connection by convincing her that only he had her best interests at heart, and that the attention of others, Paris especially, were self-serving and exploitative.

Neelix certainly did grow in the surety of his essential goodness, wisdom, and caring nature, a process that started before the rupture with Kes (Jetrel), but definitely became more apparent afterwards, as more attention could be given to him solely, not focused on the dynamics of a relationship that was destined to end sooner or later.

So, in the sense that I think the OP is intended to mean i.e does Neelix become more tolerable and perhaps substantial, I again would reply in the negative. I think, whether purposefully or not, the writers created a character whose actions, demeanor, and integrity were always present if one gave the time and consideration to look for them. As the Doctor once said, it's like peeling an onion.:techman::techman:
 
If Neelix is less annoying in later episodes is a matter of perception.

He had some hilarious scenes with Tuvok. I never found Neelix too annoying. And in the later episodes the focus is more on Seven and The Doctor.

I loved "Mr. Vulcan"

He gave the show a little Wallace Shawn of its own.
 
He was better when he was litter trained. Projecting a laser dot in the corner for him to chase helped when he was annoying. He was at his best once he was booted off the show.
 
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