Did LaForge feel guilty over the destruction of the Ent-D?

[Lonemagpie]

I think we're supposed to assume that when he says "there's nothing I can do" this means he's already tried to eject the core , etc, and it hasn't worked.

Personally I also suspect that he'd recently taken out a large insurance policy on the E-D, while browsing the brochure for that spanky new Sovereign Class that Starfleet was thinking about...

 

[Maurice]

When I saw the film the first time I thought it would have been far more dramatic to show Geordi immediately change the shield frequency the instant an attack got through, then to have to do it again, and then realize what's going on and order someone else to change the frequency, but by which point the ship would have been wounded beyond hope. It would have served the character better.

 

[Python Trek]

Slightly OT:

The death of Kirk in Generations was the world's worst-kept secret, but I was totally floored when I sat in the theater watching the E-D crash. My buddy was sitting next to me, and after the dust settled, he leaned over and whispered to me, "Holy shit!". Big Trek moment for me.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I'm suprised nobody considered this yet, but why didn't they just blast the damned Bird of Prey with all their phasers and photons I mean they tried that against the Borg so we know they can do it.

The BOP could outmanoeuver the E-D, and of course its highly likely that the weapons systems were one of the first systems the Duras Sisters targeted (logically to stand a chance against a superior ship)

But after the first hit the Bird of Prey was right in front of them when Riker fired his two little phaser bolts at them instead of frying them on the spot so it probably would have worked and the weapons still worked at that time unless the Enterprise NCC-1701 is better built than the Enterprise-D seeing as Kirk's ship needed someone to know where to hit them to cripple his ship unless it had a fragile automation system.

 

[Timo]

When I saw the film the first time I thought it would have been far more dramatic to show Geordi immediately change the shield frequency the instant an attack got through, then to have to do it again, and then realize what's going on and order someone else to change the frequency, but by which point the ship would have been wounded beyond hope. It would have served the character better.

Never mind the character, it would have made the battle more enjoyable to watch overall.

TPTB did what they could with showing the ship-to-ship action; it wouldn't have been much improved with further seconds spent on exterior views (although it would have been fun to see at least one further phaser beam futilely lashing back on the BoP). They also gave us enough Klingon stuff, with the Durassic Duo doing their usual villainy posturing but also making relevant remarks such as "Our shields are holding!" and "Target their bridge!" that supported or changed the level of tension. But our heroes aboard the E-D did less than they should have IMHO. LaForge could have done his revelation moment on screen, not to salvage his character but to raise the overall level of hero character activity. And Riker could have had dialogue that made him look a more active player in the battle; as shot, his scenes just have him waiting for the next hit and asking Worf for help.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr Silver]

IIRC, there were plans for the BOP to be a "stolen" Romulan Warbird (courtesy of Soran), however for some reason (likely "Budget") this idea was scrapped and they pencilled in the BOP, reusing footage from TNG and TUC

 

[Timo]

Some Romulanesque features still survive, such as the idea that the ship would drop shields when cloaking. Romulans were always shown having this shortcoming (or taking this precaution) - "Balance of Terror" already suggested that they had to choose which systems to allocate power to, and "Face of the Enemy" showed even the modern warbirds operating under extremely tight silent running rules where no extra systems would be kept running under cloak. The Defiant, with her Romulan cloak, seemed to drop shields when cloaking as well. In contrast, Klingon ships didn't seem to drop shields, and nicely weathered the odd hit when cloaked ("Redemption").

The Duras sisters would of course be known Romulan collaborators and recipients of Romulan aid. Their ship's equipment might well reflect that fact, even if their last hijinks had placed them at odds with the Romulans.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RandyS]

Isn't losing a ship a court martial offence?!

Only in dubious circumstances or if incompetence or other guilt can be demonstrated outright, I guess.
Timo Saloniemi

The irony was that incompetence was involved, but not on the part of either Picard or Riker, but the writers. There was no good reason for the D to be destroyed. Geordi saved the ship from worse than that many times on the series.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

An explanation that salvages Geordi/Worf's competence regarding changing shield frequency and Riker's competence as a combat officer is that the first hit from the BOP severely damaged Enterprise's power grid (or another critical component), critically weakening its shields and weapons.

Geordi/Worf may have changed the frequency, but this made no difference simply because the shields were practically gone.
And Riker had no weapons to counterattack with - other that a phaser and 2-3 photon torpedos.

 

[JarodRussell]

I always thought that giving Geordi implants in First Contact was a reaction to Generations, when the Visor proved to be a blatant security risk.


btw. did LaForge actually have human eyes in Nemesis? Or did they totally forget about Insurrection? I don't think it makes sense that the metaphasic effects would reverse (because that would have meant death for every Ba'ku during relocation).

 

[Peach Wookiee]

It looked to me like he had his implanted eyes in Nemesis. The radiation effects in Insurrection were only temporary. I believe that was mentioned onscreen.

 

[JarodRussell]

It looked to me like he had his implanted eyes in Nemesis. The radiation effects in Insurrection were only temporary. I believe that was mentioned onscreen.

Well then Picard didn't overreact, because the Federation was about to kill 600 people.

 

[C.E. Evans]

IIRC, the metaphasic radiation of the Ba'ku planet only expanded the life-span of the Ba'ku by slowing down the aging process. They wouldn't have died if they had been relocated, but it would have forced them to start aging at a normal rate from that point forward.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Metaphasic_radiation

 

[BillJ]

It looked to me like he had his implanted eyes in Nemesis. The radiation effects in Insurrection were only temporary. I believe that was mentioned onscreen.

Well then Picard didn't overreact, because the Federation was about to kill 600 people.

Yeah he did overreact. And also committed numerous violations of direct orders even before he knew what was going on. There should have been court-martial investigating his actions after Insurrection.

Plus... forcing six hundred people to age at their normal rate, horrible.

 

[JarodRussell]

No. When the Ba'ku arrived on the planet, they were much older. The radiation reversed their aging process, regenerated their cell structure so all of them looked like they were in their 30s and 40s. Now IF LaForge's new eyes degenerated after leaving the planet/the Briar Patch, then the same would have happened to the Ba'ku, and they would have died shortly after they left the Briar Patch. Hence, relocation would have killed them, and not only forced them to age normally.

Last post on this, we've been derailing this thread for too long already.

 

[C.E. Evans]

No. When the Ba'ku arrived on the planet, they were much older. The radiation reversed their aging process, regenerated their cell structure so all of them looked like they were in their 30s and 40s.

Actually, we don't know how old all the first Ba'ku settlers were when they first came to the planet in the 21st-Century, but we do know the metaphasic radiation slows down the aging process and has regenerative properties. Presumably most of the colonists may have already been in their 20s, 30s, and 40s when they first arrived and simply stayed that way, while a few of the older colonists may have been restored to a younger state.

Now IF LaForge's new eyes degenerated after leaving the planet/the Briar Patch, then the same would have happened to the Ba'ku, and they would have died shortly after they left the Briar Patch. Hence, relocation would have killed them, and not only forced them to age normally.

That's really your opinion, because there is no onscreen evidence to support that claim. Indeed, if that was the case, it would have been stated so in the film and Picard would have made it a point in his case to Admiral Dougherty that they were murdering 600 people. Instead, he argued that relocating the Ba'ku would destroy their way of life and betray the principles the Federation was built on.

Now, there was some mention about it requiring at least ten years of exposure to metaphasic radiation to reverse the condition of the Son'a. It could be argued that after ten years, the regenerative effects could be permanant, which would mean that none of the Ba'ku would die if they were relocated, but would live out normal life-spans afterward.

 

[Timo]

Or abnormal, for that matter, since few of us are naturally in such perfect health that Beverly Crusher would compliment us on it.

I don't see how LaForge's new eyes would be any less vulnerable to tampering than his old ones. Or how Picard's eyes would be. Starfleet ought to have a pretty good idea on what the innards of the VISOR or the new implants look like, and would easily recognize clumsily installed new components in all three. So obviously Soran wasn't clumsy. He had to be capable of installing something so subtle that it could just as well have been inserted in Picard's eyes.

It would be pretty irrational, then, for Starfleet or any outsider, let alone LaForge himself, to insist on the removal of the VISOR on the basis of its earlier subversion. But of course, an irrational reaction wouldn't be unexpected...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

It's hilarious at the end when Picard records in his log, "Our casualties were light, but unfortunately the Enterprise herself cannot be salvaged."

Well DUH. Half of it is space wreckage and the other half looks it's been bombed to hell.

 

[Ablative_Oberth]

The next time you watch Generations and get to the line where he says "We're five minutes from a warp core breach, there's nothing I can do" shout "eject the core" as many times as you can before the ship blows up. Actually, stop after five times, because it's just annoying.

You can't tell me Galaxy Class ships didn't have a Warp Core Eject function... or can you?

Could also be the type of damage sustained to the core precluded the possibility of a safe ejection.

I maintain that the warp-core has two independent cooling system. One for the "containment field" equipment and one for the reaction byproduct heat. This would cool the crystal, the crystal frame and carry waste heat to a conversion/disposal process.

The traditional loss of coolant would allow for an ejection as there would be sufficient coolant reserve within the core to provide a margin of time sufficient to prepare the core for ejection.

The second one, the one we see in Generations... is a failure of the containment system cooling equipment. Say they use some kind of "subspace magnetic field" to contain the reaction. Those generators and coils need to be kept cool, so they have a separate cooling system.

Failure of those systems would cause a gradual decay of the containment field as the coils heat up and stop generating.

I base this on the line "the breach is accelerating" in the movie... as the coolant inventory decreases the coils would heat up faster and lose strength faster.

The core was already unstable due to damage, LaForge wanted permission to shut it down because the "magnetic interlocks" were unstable... Trying to eject it would have caused the already unstable core to breach.

Laforge... being the highly trained professional... knew this and instead switched from trying to save the ship to getting the crew off.

---

To me ejection never made sense anyway... you have a damaged container of volatile nuclear nuclear reactions running at full power... LETS DISCONNECT IT FROM THE SUPPORT EQUIPMENT AND SHOVE IT OUT A HOLE AT SPEED! Hm no. Does nothing for me.

A more "real" approach would be a positive shutdown mode like REAL nuclear reactors have. Push the red button and the reactor SCRAMs.

However, the point was to destroy the ship. In order to continue the drama have the core break down, and LaForge shuts it down. Moments later they find that the damage extends to the antimatter storage pod systems and there isn't sufficient time to eject the pods.

 

[JarodRussell]

To me ejection never made sense anyway... you have a damaged container of volatile nuclear nuclear reactions running at full power... LETS DISCONNECT IT FROM THE SUPPORT EQUIPMENT AND SHOVE IT OUT A HOLE AT SPEED! Hm no. Does nothing for me.

A more "real" approach would be a positive shutdown mode like REAL nuclear reactors have. Push the red button and the reactor SCRAMs.

What they eject is the antimatter storage before the magnetic containment fails and the antimatter/matter reaction destroys the entire ship. You can't compare it to nuclear reactions.

Basically you can compare the warp core to a car motor. From the top matter is injected, from the bottom antimatter is injected, and both meet in the middle (where the dilithium crystals are). In a car motor the energy from the explosion is used to propel the cylinders, in a starship reactor the energy from the m/a annihilation is then channeled into the warp nacelles to create the warp field. The difference is that with gasoline you have no problem. With antimatter you do. And the safest way is to eject the antimatter storage and get away from it as quickly as possible before it goes boom.