Did LaForge feel guilty over the destruction of the Ent-D?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Cadet49, Jun 20, 2010.

  1. Cadet49

    Cadet49 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Soran and the Lursa sisters implanted something in Geordi's visor and used it as a spy cam as he was walking around the ship, ultimately leading to them finding a way to break the Ent-D's defenses and destroy the ship.

    If the crew had figured out that LaForge's visor was the security "mole", do you think Geordi would feel a sense of guilt - after all, he spent almost a decade keeping the ship together through crisis after crisis, only to see himself turned into an unknowing agent in its destruction.

    Frankly, I'm surprised Riker put him back on duty so soon after he was kidnapped and tortured by Soran. Considering the fact that the last time LaForge was kidnapped and tortured by enemy agents he almost assassinated a Klingon governor (TNG episode: "The Mind's Eye"), I would have had LaForge go through a ton of counselling and psych evaluations before returning him to duty - he's been through this horrible ordeal TWICE! I also would have had engineers going through his visor with a fine tooth comb to see if it had been tampered with before letting it into areas of his security clearance and sensitivity - never made sense to me.
     
  2. BillJ

    BillJ History’s Greatest Monster Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Covington, Ky. USA
    I think Starfleet probably made him go with an 'upgraded' technology after Generations before returning to duty aboard the Enterprise-E. The technology he was currently equipped with had obvious security flaws.

    Plus it makes for a nice 'in-universe' explanation for the change between Generations and First Contact.
     
  3. Alrik

    Alrik Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2003
    Location:
    Alrik is on A deck chair, somewhere....


    *psst* Duras' sisters, Lursa and B'Etor.


    Bill J, interesting explanation.

    I'm sure that once Geordi found out his VISOR was the cause of the destruction of the E-D he was devistated. But much like Mind's Eye, Troi was there to help work through it and fully recover.
     
  4. Leathco

    Leathco Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    I thought it was odd how fast he just gave up.

    We are 3 minutes from a warp core breach there's nothing I can do. Hasn't he gotten them out of similar or worse situations before?
     
  5. Mr Silver

    Mr Silver Commodore Newbie

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Location:
    UK
    True, but the Enterprise had never taken direct torpedo hits to the Engineering Section before
     
  6. Shazam!

    Shazam! Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    I don't think he gave a shit. Even Picard was like "Meh, they'll make another"
     
  7. Mr Silver

    Mr Silver Commodore Newbie

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Location:
    UK
    Lol I forgot about that

    "Somehow I doubt this will be the last ship to carry the name of Enterprise"

    Isn't losing a ship a court martial offence?!

    Wonder who would have had to be court martialled?

    Riker (since he was technically in command)

    or

    Picard (since he was the Captain)
     
  8. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    It sounds a bit unlikely that anybody would have spotted Soran's tampering - the man was a tech wizard from an advanced culture, after all. If he could blow up stars, why not implement eavesdropping techniques that are impossible to observe or defeat?

    Doesn't mean our heroes shouldn't have checked. And of course they may have done so, and failed to see anything amiss. Quite possibly Soran never actually installed anything in the VISOR anyway - possibly he merely figured out a way to tap into the device from afar.

    The question is, should LaForge have been allowed to return to duty? Anybody who spent time in captivity would be a possible traitor. Anybody who ever left the ship for any reason would be a possible traitor. Many people who never left could be traitors. But 99% of the time, nobody is. Kirk allowed Chekov to man the guns in ST2 after the Ceti eel experience, and was not disappointed. LaForge was able to return to work after "Mind's Eye". Should he never be trusted again? The ship would be quite short of skilled hands in that case.

    Only in dubious circumstances or if incompetence or other guilt can be demonstrated outright, I guess.

    Picard's loss of the Stargazer was probably considered dubious. He didn't even scuttle the ship after abandoning her in hostile territory! He was tried, but freed of charges. Kirk's loss of the first Enterprise was never particularly "dubious", as it was clear to everybody that he had stolen the ship from his government before losing her honorably in battle. He was tried, but freed of charges. Riker's loss of the E-D... Now that was also a rather transparent incident, no reason for a court of inquiry there - but incompetence charges might be raised because a seemingly puny opponent managed to best him. So Riker was probably tried, and then freed of charges.

    ...After all, it could be demonstrated that the opponent had underhanded supertechnologies, and that Riker had taken every imaginable precaution (shields were up, main guns aimed at the enemy, fire was promptly returned). The matter would be different if Riker succumbed to an opponent of known qualities.

    ...Which he did in "Rascals". But that's another story.

    The incident would no doubt reflect badly on him, too. But he would have acted in good faith and demonstrated good leadership in leaving the ship in Riker's competent hands and the Klingons safely under the shielded ship's powerful guns. In real life, captains often get booted out of service if their underlings run their ships aground, because such a thing almost never occurs unless the underling is known to be incompetent or the situation calls for precautions the captain did not take. But leaving a competent person at helm and then going to sleep is no grounds for such punishment if the ship is wrecked as the result of a rare storm (these aren't always predictable) or a sea monster (a sperm whale in the wrong place can ruin the day of even a moderately sized vessel) or a surprise strike (in a location and situation generally accepted as secure - say, guerrilla attack in the Panama Canal).

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  9. Mr Silver

    Mr Silver Commodore Newbie

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Location:
    UK
    Interesting, it seems that Riker would, as a formality have to face a hearing relating to the loss of the E-D, as Timo says, "incompetence charges might be raised" Its pretty sketchy, considering the E-D crew were likely unaware how the BOP was firing through their shields, Its possible that La Forge was examined again later and it came to fruition that Soran had indeed implanted some kind of remote viewing device on his VISOR One thing that is confusing however, since Riker and co, realised that the BOP was getting through their shields, why did they just not rotate the frequency? Even if they changed accordingly (using La Forge's VISOR viewer) to keep up, wouldn't a "Rotating Shield Frequency" be in order? It does seem pretty strange for the Enterpise crew to do nothing in relation to defence...
     
  10. Alrik

    Alrik Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2003
    Location:
    Alrik is on A deck chair, somewhere....


    Of all the gaping plot holes though out Generations, that is the one the struck me the most watching it the first time in the theater. I clearly remember thinking to myself, 'Why the hell isn't Data rotating the shields? It seemed like he had to do it at least two or three times a season during the series. What gives?'.
     
  11. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2002
    Location:
    ssosmcin
    The next time you watch Generations and get to the line where he says "We're five minutes from a warp core breach, there's nothing I can do" shout "eject the core" as many times as you can before the ship blows up. Actually, stop after five times, because it's just annoying.

    You can't tell me Galaxy Class ships didn't have a Warp Core Eject function... or can you?
     
  12. Mr Silver

    Mr Silver Commodore Newbie

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Location:
    UK
    I'm pretty sure that if we went to the writers with this question they'd justify it saying "The Warp Core Eject Function was damaged by the attacks and Geordi could not reach the Manual Eject Controls"

    It sucks I know, but its very likely they'd say something like that

    As for what I suggested in my last post, regarding the Shield Harmonics Rotation, this is something they simply could not get themselves out of!
     
  13. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Location:
    Star Trekkin Across the universe.
    I'm suprised nobody considered this yet, but why didn't they just blast the damned Bird of Prey with all their phasers and photons I mean they tried that against the Borg so we know they can do it.
     
  14. Mr Silver

    Mr Silver Commodore Newbie

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Location:
    UK
    The BOP could outmanoeuver the E-D, and of course its highly likely that the weapons systems were one of the first systems the Duras Sisters targeted (logically to stand a chance against a superior ship)

    The Borg were a different story, A Borg Cube is massive, it cannot outmanoeuver any known Starfleet Ship and quite possibly due to its size, its sublight speeds are limited, thus the best offence for Starfleet would be to shower the Cube in weapons fire, knowing that it could not take any real evasive action (although its pointless since conventional phasers and torpedos barely scratch the surface)
     
  15. nx1701g

    nx1701g Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2001
    Location:
    2001 - 2016
    I know they're not canon, but one of the Star Trek novels claimed exactly that: Starfleet required him to get the upgraded technology or they were going to either reassign him dismiss him from Starfleet. It's been a while since I last read the story so I'm not sure which it was.

    Everyone knows that's the first system to go down in combat...
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ History’s Greatest Monster Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Covington, Ky. USA
    :lol:

    Just goes to show that no idea is truly unique.
     
  17. Mr Silver

    Mr Silver Commodore Newbie

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Location:
    UK
    Makes you wonder why Starfleet haven't realised this and better shielded their Fail Safe Systems?

    Ejecting a Warp Core has saved ships on numerous occasions, sometimes its the only option (GEN) and when that option isn't online (GEN) then lushious greenery gets soiled by flying saucers (GEN) ;)
     
  18. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    That sounds a bit like the oldie-but-goldie "Why don't they build entire aircraft out of that indestructible Black Box material?"...

    Probably core ejectors are already as good as they can be. It's not trivially easy to eject a system that pumps antimatter and energetic plasma through the ship; an insufficiently purged system would probably destroy the ship when ejected just as surely as when not ejected.

    As for rotating shields, that's a defense that's supposed to work against the Borg (but virtually never does). We have no evidence that it would work against other types of opponent. And it's quite possible that it in fact significantly weakens the shields - an acceptable price to pay when fighting the Borg, since a non-rotating shield would be completely useless, not merely partially so, but not an acceptable price to pay (for zero gain!) when fighting Romulans or the Dominion.

    Apparently, it's not possible to find out the enemy's shield frequency merely by scanning the enemy shields. It's "inside info" that can only be gained through espionage. And it can usually be negated simply by changing the frequency, so it's not much of a threat. It's only a threat if a hostile agent remains constantly active close to one's shielding control console.

    Which is a fact that may eventually have dawned on our heroes as well. It would be a bit odd if it didn't, assuming there are no other ways the shield frequency could be a vulnerability. But if LaForge eventually worked it out, and decided to look the other way when his assistant rotated the frequency, then the issue would quickly become moot: when the enemy was defeated, LaForge could return to work at once, immediately reverting to a fully trusted patriot.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. tau136

    tau136 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Location:
    The middle of the middle of Ireland
    The biggest casualty of this story isn't the E-D its the plot.

    The ship was scripted to go down so suddenly every one of the crew was struck by a mysterious plague to turn them into amnesiac cretins.

    No attempt to eject warp core.
    No rotating shield frequencies.
    None of Riker's combat genius.
    None of Geordi's engineering tenacity.
    Most of all nobody thinking :
    Hey these guys must have intel; lets scan for any odd info broadcasts out of the ship / lets block any comms from us to them
     
  20. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    At first, LaForge felt guilty. But as soon as he saw that the captain, Riker, and the rest of the crew didn't seem to really give a crap about the Enterprise being destroyed as they left Veridian, Geordi felt much better.
    That's even if we don't consider the fact that Romulans had used Geordi's visor as a receiver of outside transmissions before in the series. "Don't worry, Geordi," Picard says, "I can't imagine something like this happening again."