Did Kirk command the Enterprise for a while after TMP?

[The Rock]

They sort of implied at the end of TMP that he was going to be the Enterprise's captain once again, but in WoK they really don't go into specifics FWIR about whether or not he got to be her captain for a long time after TMP ended.

All we knew in WoK was that he was now an admiral, and he regretted accepting promotion because he really wanted to be the captain of a starship. That's what the story was about, and that's what it focused on.

 

[BillJ]

I say no. But lots of people disagree with me.

 

[The Rock]

I say no. But lots of people disagree with me.

Was it ever established how soon the events of WoK take place after TMP?

 

[Lord Garth]

No idea. At least canonically-speaking. It's open to interpretation.

"In Thy Image", the pilot for Star Trek: Phase II, became Star Trek: The Motion Picture. After "In Thy Image", Kirk would've continued in command. Of course, if "In Thy Image" were made instead of TMP, then Decker and Ilia would've still been aboard the Enterprise too. So this isn't anything we should really go by.

In GEN, a reporter says to Kirk, "This is the first starship Enterprise in 30 years without James T. Kirk in command. How do you feel about that?" The reporter didn't do their homework because they forgot about Decker and Spock. But Decker never got a chance to command the Enterprise on active duty and I'm guessing Spock was never too far from Kirk when the Enterprise was a training vessel. So, even though it's sloppy, I can see why the reporter would make that mistake.

After just re-joining Starfleet, I don't think they'd give Spock a command of his own right away... so I'd say Kirk stayed in command of the Enterprise for a little while after TMP.

 

[Imaus]

Was it ever established how soon the events of WoK take place after TMP?

No, and we have no real idea when TMP takes place. It is after the Five Year Mission (2264-2269? 2265-2270) and maybe before 2278, as the Monster Maroons were introduced by then on the Bozeman. So at best we're looking at 2271ish to 2278ish, let's say 2277 to be safe. (What a nice number that is). It can even be more, what with haphazard Starfleet is apparently with uniforms.

The Wrath of Khan takes place in 2285! This could be up to a decade and a half with some change after TMP. Damn that's a time skip.

 

[yotsuya]

It is implied that Kirk commands for a while. That is what the novels assumed. The timeline places TMP 2.5 years after the 5 year mission (5 years from WNMHGB to end of mission ) and at the end of an 18 month refit. TWOK implies a new promotion leaving room for Kirk to command a second 5 year mission. The dialogue also implies it. Real world time and fictional time come together in TVH. Made 20 years after the series started, it is set 20 years after the start of the series. That means it takes place 12.5 years after TMP. You can even fit in 2 5 year missions. Then then Kirk is demoted and given command of 1701-A for 6 years. So the comment about 30 years is generally correct in Generations. That part you can pick up from the films and a bit from TNG (TNG finally set the timeline, but a lot was clear even before that). Plus we know that Pike commanded the Enterprise for about 11 years. The there is Robert April. His command pushes the launch of Enterprise back to 2245 (assuming a single 5 year mission). There is some wiggle room here and there so the timeline the Okudas came up with is not perfect, but it is based on canon sources and easy to recalculate and it is what the TNG references were based on. Based on all that, Kirk commanded up to 4 5 year missions.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Was it ever established how soon the events of WoK take place after TMP?

I think as far as TWOK is concerned, TMP never happened.

 

[fireproof78]

I think as far as TWOK is concerned, TMP never happened.

Possibly. That Meyer guy was never a real Trek fan

 

[The Rock]

I think as far as TWOK is concerned, TMP never happened.

I always suspected that TWOK might be a reboot of TMP lol. I never believed it. But I could definitely see how some Trekkies would consider TMP to be non-canon. The ONLY thing WoK has in common with TMP is the same ship, and that's it. Nothing else. WoK doesn't mention anything that happened in TMP and neither do the rest of the ST movies.

 

[STEPhon IT]

From a film standpoint, No, once the Enterprise warped space that was it. The ship returned to Earth and Mr. Spock is promoted as Captain while Kirk goes back to Admiral duty. TMP was a special circumstance mission but not to begin a whole new tour of duty.

 

[JoseNoodles]

They did reuse the Enterprise refit launch sequence from TMP in TWOK, and I think the bridge was mostly the same. I think after TMP, the reigns were taken from Rodenberry and handed to another producer who name escapes me, and the directors of the later films had a different vision for the Trek universe during this time. Everything felt more naval/militaristic and the Cold War allegory between the Federation and Klingons took more prominence. Plus they got new uniforms which allowed George Takei to use the bathroom while wearing it. Hence the disconnect.

To be fair, how much from I-VI ever got mentioned in the later shows? Khan and the Eugenics Wars sure, but he dates back to the Original Series. I recall the Khitomer Accords being mentioned a couple of times, and Chang's statue shows up in that Klingon station. I don't think V'ger or the Whale Probe have ever been name dropped. Star Trek V is quarantined. The whole Surak's katra thing from Enterprise could be viewed as a shout-out to ST II and III. The Miranda, Oberth, Excelsior, K't'inga, and Klingon Bird-of-Prey have appeared in later shows, though that was out of necessity more than banking on nostalgia. The monster maroons also showed up in flashbacks and recording, and of course with the crew of the Bozeman.

 

[Damian]

It is implied that Kirk commands for a while. That is what the novels assumed. The timeline places TMP 2.5 years after the 5 year mission (5 years from WNMHGB to end of mission ) and at the end of an 18 month refit. TWOK implies a new promotion leaving room for Kirk to command a second 5 year mission. The dialogue also implies it. Real world time and fictional time come together in TVH. Made 20 years after the series started, it is set 20 years after the start of the series. That means it takes place 12.5 years after TMP. You can even fit in 2 5 year missions. Then then Kirk is demoted and given command of 1701-A for 6 years. So the comment about 30 years is generally correct in Generations. That part you can pick up from the films and a bit from TNG (TNG finally set the timeline, but a lot was clear even before that). Plus we know that Pike commanded the Enterprise for about 11 years. The there is Robert April. His command pushes the launch of Enterprise back to 2245 (assuming a single 5 year mission). There is some wiggle room here and there so the timeline the Okudas came up with is not perfect, but it is based on canon sources and easy to recalculate and it is what the TNG references were based on. Based on all that, Kirk commanded up to 4 5 year missions.

Yeah, I think we can make some educated guesses as to the time between TMP and TWOK. An episode of Voyager tells us when the 5YM ended (2270), TMP tells us Kirk was chief of starfleet operations for 2 1/2 years, and TWOK takes place 15 years after Space Seed (or about that, give or take a year if someone is rounding). So there's at least anywhere from 8 to 10 years between the films that you can figure from canon.

A number of novels have taken place after TMP that have Kirk in command for another 5 YM, and possibly longer before he is promoted again to Admiral sometime during the interim. (BTW, just a plug for one of the writers here I highly recommend "The Higher Frontier" by Christopher Bennett. It takes place during this period and depicts Kirk and Spock's promotion and how it came to be, and it ties some other elements of the two movies together as well--I found it to be an excellent story).

The ONLY thing WoK has in common with TMP is the same ship, and that's it. Nothing else. WoK doesn't mention anything that happened in TMP and neither do the rest of the ST movies.

Some of that is not surprising, continuity wasn't as big a thing as it is today with serialized TV series and so forth. And TMP wasn't a favorite of Paramount's at the time partly due to its high cost. So it's not surprising there are no real references to TMP other than the sets and main characters. But at the same time it does nothing to contradict TMP. And based on the time frame it was at least 8 to 10 years earlier so in story it wouldn't be surprising that they weren't really talking about it. From a story perspective it was close to a decade ago.

And one thing someone pointed out once that seemed to follow from TMP is Spock's coming to terms with his dual heritage. In TMP he finally came to realize logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end for him. He learned there it was ok to accept his human half. It doesn't mean he's suddenly smiling, joking around or anything like that. Just that he's more comfortable with who he is. And TWOK actually continued that thread. Now, I don't think it was something they consciously did. It just happened to follow naturally between TMP and TWOK. Though maybe that was one element of Spock's story the writers did like about TMP. Who knows.

 

[Nerys Myk]

From a film standpoint, No, once the Enterprise warped space that was it. The ship returned to Earth and Mr. Spock is promoted as Captain while Kirk goes back to Admiral duty. TMP was a special circumstance mission but not to begin a whole new tour of duty.

Kirk might disagree

KIRK: Mister Scott! Shall we give the Enterprise a proper shakedown?
SCOTT: I would say it's time for that, sir, aye. We can have you back on Vulcan in for days, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Unnecessary, Mister Scott. My task on Vulcan is completed.
KIRK: Mister Sulu, ahead, warp one.
SULU (OC): Warp one, sir.
DIFALCO (OC): Heading, sir?
KIRK: Out there. Thataway!

 

[C.E. Evans]

There's always been room to suggest that Kirk commanded the Enterprise after TMP, but nothing that officially says that in any subsequent Trek series or movie. If we go with the idea that Kirk immediately returned to the admiralty after TMP, however, then it just a different kind of speculation as to what went on with the Enterprise between TMP and TWOK. Sure, Spock is the Enterprise's captain by the time of TWOK, but we don't have any official information on when his captaincy began. Will Decker was originally slated to command the Enterprise after Kirk. For all we know, there may have been an unknown captain (or two) in charge of NCC-1701 between TMP and TWOK, and the latter was the first time all of the TOS gang had been back on the ship together in years...

 

[fireproof78]

A number of novels have taken place after TMP that have Kirk in command for another 5 YM, and possibly longer before he is promoted again to Admiral sometime during the interim. (BTW, just a plug for one of the writers here I highly recommend "The Higher Frontier" by Christopher Bennett. It takes place during this period and depicts Kirk and Spock's promotion and how it came to be, and it ties some other elements of the two movies together as well--I found it to be an excellent story).

Hmmm...I'll need to check it out.

Though maybe that was one element of Spock's story the writers did like about TMP. Who knows.

Probably more Nimoy than anyone.

 

[Nerys Myk]

There's always been room to suggest that Kirk commanded the Enterprise after TMP, but nothing that officially says that in any subsequent Trek series or movie. If we go with the idea that Kirk immediately returned to the admiralty after TMP, however, then it just a different kind of speculation as to what went on with the Enterprise between TMP and TWOK. Sure, Spock is the Enterprise's captain by the time of TWOK, but we don't have any official information on when his captaincy began. Will Decker was originally slated to command the Enterprise after Kirk. For all we know, there may have been an unknown captain (or two) in charge of NCC-1701 between TMP and TWOK, and the latter was the first time all of the TOS gang had been back on the ship together in years...

Reading between the lines, I got the impression Spock's Captaincy came with the Enterprise being assigned as a training vessel.

 

[Damian]

There's always been room to suggest that Kirk commanded the Enterprise after TMP, but nothing that officially says that in any subsequent Trek series or movie. If we go with the idea that Kirk immediately returned to the admiralty after TMP, however, then it just a different kind of speculation as to what went on with the Enterprise between TMP and TWOK. Sure, Spock is the Enterprise's captain by the time of TWOK, but we don't have any official information on when his captaincy began. Will Decker was originally slated to command the Enterprise after Kirk. For all we know, there may have been an unknown captain (or two) in charge of NCC-1701 between TMP and TWOK, and the latter was the first time all of the TOS gang had been back on the ship together in years...

Yeah, nothing in canon says anything about what happened between the 2, and I doubt anything ever will. Which is probably why novels have felt free to fill in that time frame. It's probably at extremely low risk of being contradicted.

I think it's pretty safe to infer there was 8 to 10 years between the two films. The body of canon gives us enough information to make that assumption. But what happened during that period? Well, officially that's anyone's guess. Continuity wise, and as an avid novel reader, I do go with the idea that Kirk commanded the ship for a number of years before being promoted again. But that's not canon. So everyone's free to make their own assumptions.

Probably more Nimoy than anyone.

I wouldn't be surprised. It seemed particularly with the movies he had a lot of input in his character. And it might not even be the writing, just how he acted the scenes out that made it seem a natural progression from TMP.

Reading between the lines, I got the impression Spock's Captaincy came with the Enterprise being assigned as a training vessel.

That's how the novel "The Higher Frontier" approaches it. Spock never wished for command but he saw wisdom in guiding 'young' minds. And he'd still be able to pursue his interests in sciences since it wasn't a ship on an active mission.

 

[Lord Garth]

I had this thread late last year where I tried to piece together my own version of what happened between TMP and TWOK and threw Planet of the Titans into the mix.

I just thought of this within the last hour or two, here, while posting elsewhere that in my head-canon, Planet of the Titans would take place between TMP and TWOK. As I began to flesh out how it would fit, I realized it would deserve a thread of its own, so here we are.

2265-2270: TOS/TAS
2270-2273: The Lost Years
2273: TMP
2274-2279: 2nd Five-Year Mission
2279-2282: Planet of the Titans (yes, the story spans three years)
2282-2284: Kirk with Antonia
2284-2285: Kirk back in Starfleet, in an apartment, and wanting command of the Enterprise again.
2285-2286: TWOK, TSFS, and TVH
2287: TFF
2287-2292: 3rd Five-Year Mission (the first and only one with the Enterprise-A)
2292: TUC (some months after the third five-year mission ended but before the E-A was decommissioned)
2293: GEN (the first 15 minutes)

Planet of the Titans believably gets Kirk away from the Enterprise. I have a hard time believing he'd ever willingly give the ship up again after trying so hard to get it back in TMP. But circumstances beyond his control, like disappearing through a black hole, and spending three years living with the Cygnans would do it.

Starfleet wouldn't give command of the Enterprise back to Kirk immediately after that, especially if someone else has been in command of it for a while, so he'd have to take a desk assignment, or some other type of assignment. Maybe this is where the "don't let them transfer you" kicks in, when he's telling Picard in GEN, "Don't [retire], don't let them promote you, don't let them transfer you, don't let them do anything to take you away from the bridge of that ship because, while you're there, you can make a difference."

After he's transferred away, and not having a say in the matter because of the circumstances, I could see him thinking "The Hell with this!" and resigning right then and there. Only to regret it a few years later if he just couldn't adapt to civilian life. So he'd want to make being an Admiral work again, and would be nearby the Enterprise, which would be a training vessel. But instead of making things better, it would make things even worse. He'd be constantly reminded of what he's not doing: commanding the Enterprise. In active duty. Perfectly leads right into The Wrath of Khan.

What do you think? Does it work? Is it crazy? Or is it so crazy that it actually works?

I have a feeling some of this might've been Kirk's doing. Once he was back in Starfleet, he might've pulled some strings to have the Enterprise assigned to the Academy. I wouldn't put it passed him to think since he couldn't go back to the Enterprise, he'd bring the Enterprise back to him. That's consistent with his characterization in TMP while further building the bridge to TWOK. And it would fit McCoy's line, "Admiral, wouldn't it just be easier to put an experienced crew back on the ship?," if he knows Kirk's the reason for all of this. Which could also be why McCoy presses him to get back his command and Spock tells him outright that it was a mistake for him to accept promotion in the first place. They know something is up and they finally confront him about it.

Anyway, the Klingon angle in Planet of the Titans fits like a glove too. Cutting and pasting part of the synopsis from the Wikipedia article...

• "The Klingons also want to claim the planet. Spock travels to the surface and finds Kirk, who has been living on the planet for three years. Together, they discover the planet is inhabited by the Cygnans, who destroyed the Titans. The planet and the Enterprise enter the black hole, with the Cygnans being destroyed in the process. The ship emerges in orbit of Earth during the Paleolithic era, and the crew teach early man to make fire, in effect playing the role of Prometheus the Titan themselves,"

I could see the Klingons putting the blame for the destruction of the Cygnans on Kirk, whether it's true or not, and threatening to go to war over it. Which would put Starfleet into a suitably tight bind and give them added incentive where they'd want Kirk to "take one for the team" after they find out he survived.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Kirk might disagree

Yep. Canonically, Kirk commanded the refit Enterprise at least for the first part of that shakedown cruise. The jump to warp at the end of the film was to go off on that shakedown cruise in a random direction, not back to Earth.

There's room on that shakedown cruise for endless adventure.

 

[Kor]

FWIW, Robert Wise said that when they were making TMP, the understanding was that it took place ten years after the series. Of course, he was just a hired gun in the context of a larger franchise.

Kor