Did Janeway Kill Tuvix?

[DonIago]

I'm starting to wonder whether this sort of situation is of a type where, realistically, Starfleet would deny one person the power to make the decision and instead require a tribunal of officers.

Not just because that forces a conversation amongst peers (assuming the people involved have enough character to overlook rank during the proceedings), but because that way no one person has to bear final responsibility for the outcome.

FWIW, I'm with the poster above who stated that they feel the bridge crew's silence with regards to Janeway's actions is a form of complicity. "I saw what was happening and I did nothing." Might have been nice if a follow-up had involved someone (hell, even a redshirt) who was okay with things at the time, but developed enough of a case of guilt over it that they needed to speak their mind, or even leave the ship rather than serve under Janeway.

I liked Kes a little bit less after this episode and her blatantly emotional appeal to Janeway. No idea whether it swayed Janeway's decision, but it makes me deeply uncomfortable.

 

[Trekkin]

I'm starting to wonder whether this sort of situation is of a type where, realistically, Starfleet would deny one person the power to make the decision and instead require a tribunal of officers..

They do. That's the plot in Measure of a Man. One officer wants to rip Data apart for 'the greater good.' Imagine all the great stuff we could learn! Innovations everywhere! Lives saved! The leaps forward in AI!

Data says 'That'd kill or labotomize me! Fuck no!'

So to determine those rights, it goes to trial. A full military tribunal specifically, not just the crew taking a tally.

They decided against tearing apart Data, btw. No pulling apart a resisting and unconventional life for its parts, 'greater good' or otherwise.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Very few people who can talk already don't have the capacity or rights to suggest not being lobotomise.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

And if Tuvok and Neelix are both 'alive' (and Tuvix was not a unique and living person in his own right) then why is it right for Janeway to have ignored 'their' decision to not separate? If he's the sum of them, then they were fine with the situation. Meaning Janeway purposely mutilated two-ish people against their will because...Kes cried in her shoulder.

There's no reason to believe that Tuvix was speaking for either Tuvok or Neelix. Tuvix proved that he did not share their opinions by his own words, when he agreed that Tuvok and Neelix would each sacrifice himself to save another but would do no such thing himself.

 

[Refuge]

Tuvix was a transporter freak. He had no rights.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Which is why he should have asked for a hearing to define his rights.

 

[Trekkin]

There's no reason to believe that Tuvix was speaking for either Tuvok or Neelix. Tuvix proved that he did not share their opinions by his own words, when he agreed that Tuvok and Neelix would each sacrifice himself to save another but would do no such thing himself.

Oh, I do happen to think Tuvix is entirely his own person. Some of personality trait stuff clashes a bit with that, but I've no doubt he was 'meant' to be just the sum of their 'raw matter.'

Problem is, if their souls/essence/whatever are gone, that means Janeway was less 'restoring Tuvok and Neelix to their former state', and more 'sacrificing (literal) virgins to resurrect the dead.' Like a moustache-less Hammer Horror Villain.

And like a good Hammer Horror villain, she didn't give a shit about whether the dead wants others to die for their sake. Because it's ultimately about the need to alleviate personal pain at any costs, not some noble attempt at doing well by others.

A sympathetic feeling to anyone who has ever suffered a loss, but still a monstrously selfish one. Translating that outlook into behaviour is what made the Vidiians villainous.

Tuvix was a transporter freak. He had no rights.

So were Riker and Pulaski by the end of the series. One is possibly half a person (or a copy of a person,) and the other 'naturally' is an artificially-aged 90 years old who was also artificially made young with some transporter molecular jiggery-pokery.

Plus, Neelix and Tuvok are apparently part-plant for the rest of their days. Janeway certainly never mentioned getting it out.

They're Deviations! Blasphemies! Get 'em!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

if their souls/essence/whatever are gone

There's no evidence that that happened, either. Tuvok and Neelix are fine by next episode, so it's actually just the opposite. There's every reason to suppose that their souls/essence/whatever are just as intact as they ever were. The transporter is truly an amazing machine.

 

[Refuge]

There's no evidence that that happened, either. Tuvok and Neelix are fine by next episode, so it's actually just the opposite. There's every reason to suppose that their souls/essence/whatever are just as intact as they ever were. The transporter is truly an amazing machine.

Tuvok and Neelix never skipped a beat, apparently Tuvix left them with the legacy he left everyone else.. nothing of value.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

If you didn't know Tuvok or Neelix I think it would still be the right thing to save the two (+ plant) he was made up of.

Be nice to forget that Tuvok was in there. Nice to forget Neelix was in there, and not as two halfs. They were two beings, they had been two separate wholes. Tuvix was not a co-joined being. He was a transporter malfunction. It is nothing like a mother with a child If a mother births a child at least you know there was an order of life that having both alive was possible. With Tuvix he required the denial of Tuvok and Neelix to be.. He demanded they not be brought back.

I don't blame Kes or Janeway. They preferred Tuvok and Neelix. If one of them had been my brother I would save him over that aberration in a heartbeat.

Exactly.
(thank you, Refuge, to have expressed so brilliantly the back of my mind, in your different posts about Tuvix's epiosde! :-D)

And a last thing, One and Tuvix were both some likeable characters and that's surely why, their dramatic ending was so painful to watch but again, it was necessary.

 

[Nyotarules]

Tuvix was a transporter freak. He had no rights.

Like Thomas Riker?

 

[BillJ]

Janeway murdered Tuvix, there's no other way to look at it. She discontinued the existence of a unique being by force. Whether one is okay with her solution is a different story.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Janeway murdered Tuvix, there's no other way to look at it. She discontinued the existence of a unique being by force. Whether one is okay with her solution is a different story.

Of course there are other ways to look it, even valid ways. And that's not the definition of murder.

 

[BillJ]

Of course there are other ways to look it, even valid ways. And that's not the definition of murder.

I disagree. She ended his existence by force. His existence wasn't ended because of some crime he committed against society. While rare, transporter accidents are a known danger. Tuvok and Neelix used the transporter of their own free will. They knew the danger existed.

Tuvok and Neelix died in the transporter, they knew the risk. Tuvix was shoved in there as a way of cheating death for the two.

Would I have made the same choice as Janeway? Probably. Because 70,000 light-years from home Tuvok and Neelix are more valuable to me than Tuvix. But I wouldn't delude myself about what I did.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I disagree. She ended his existence by force. His existence wasn't ended because of some crime he committed against society. While rare, transporter accidents are a known danger. Tuvok and Neelix used the transporter of their own free will. They knew the danger existed.

Tuvok and Neelix died in the transporter, they knew the risk. Tuvix was shoved in there as a way of cheating death for the two.

Would I have made the same choice as Janeway? Probably. Because 70,000 light-years from home Tuvok and Neelix are more valuable to me than Tuvix. But I wouldn't delude myself about what I did.

Again, not the definition of murder. Use of force to end life is lawful in certain circumstances. For it to be murder, killing can't merely be by use of force; it must be unlawful and premeditated. To argue it is murder, you have to connect all of those dots.

Also, Tuvok and Neelix didn't die, as evidenced by the fact that they survived the episode.

 

[Trekkin]

There's no evidence that that happened, either. Tuvok and Neelix are fine by next episode, so it's actually just the opposite. There's every reason to suppose that their souls/essence/whatever are just as intact as they ever were. The transporter is truly an amazing machine.

I never claimed they were harmed. What the hell man?

I said you had three options:

1. The 'soul' doesn't exist. In which case Tuvok and Neelix were frigging dead, or have had a physical makeover that they wanted to keep.

2. The soul does, and they'd...gone wherever souls go when they're not getting lodged in McCoys head. In which case, Janeway didn't save them. She just murdered a dude, and pulled them back where she could see them.

3. The soul does exist, and was in Tuvix the entire time. In which case why do they need fixing against their will? The physical, mental and...whatever, are still there. They just look different, and would rather not get reconstructive surgery, okaythanks.​

As for 'next episode,' you can't retroactively give consent. If someone knocks you out, cuts you open, and steals your kidney, the guy isn't suddenly not an organ thief just because your later decide it was justified due to 'saving other lives' and 'blood money stopping the thief's 12 children from starving to death!'

Of course there are other ways to look it, even valid ways. And that's not the definition of murder.

It was premeditated, by the end he was legally dead according to any definition you can find, and her actions caused his death.

Real legal semantics do not help the episode. They just shove the last nail in the 'Janeway totally murdered him man' coffin.

 

[SPCTRE]

She discontinued the existence of a unique being by force.

well around her we prefer to say she re-accomodated Tuvix to another state of existence

 

[BillJ]

Use of force to end life is lawful in certain circumstances. For it to be murder, killing can't merely be by use of force; it must be unlawful and premeditated.

Obviously Janeway's actions were premeditated. What law would allow her to destroy someone against their will? Who had committed no crime other than existing?

Also, Tuvok and Neelix didn't die, as evidenced by the fact that they survived the episode.

Umm... then lots of people didn't "die" in Star Trek. Including Scott in "The Changeling" and Spock at the end of The Wrath of Khan.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

What law would allow her to destroy someone against their will?

For starters and in general, she has the authority to use deadly force in certain circumstances with the ship's weapons. That's just one example.

Although the Doctor determined that his ethical subroutines could not allow him to separate Tuvix, no one stepped forward that I recall and protested the action as being against Starfleet regulations. If Tuvix had, as he claimed, Tuvok's knowledge as security chief, I'd've expected him to put that forward as an argument in his favor, if Janeway were actually exceeding her authority. His appeal was primarily to the ethical issue of right and wrong. The episode provides no reason to assume that Janeway is exceeding her authority. In that sense, her actions appear lawful.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The series began with Tuvok saying "Rescuing the Ocampa is a Prime Directive breach." To which Kathy replies "Go jump in a lake big ears." Or words to that effect. You can't win an argument with this emotional woman using cold logic or facts or rules from a legal code, because that's just not how she ticks.

...

Janeway executed all the life-like personalities that her intrepid crew were trapped underneath in the killing game, who might have begged to live if the situation was explained to them that they were fake.

Ditto for Workforce.