Did Janeway Kill Tuvix?

[Trekkin]

If their 'life patterns' are there the whole time, why kill somone to rip them out? Especially when they give no indication of being unhappy with their situation.

Jadzia and Ezri are just a 'holding tank' for a Trill. They even have Tuvix traits of combining memories memories with the worm, picking up personality traits, and developing aesthetic changes to their appearance. Should they be separated on principle, even though there's no indication that they want to be?

And knowing the procedure would, you know...kill the host?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If their 'life patterns' are there the whole time, why kill somone to rip them out? Especially when they give no indication of being unhappy with their situation.

Their cries of "Help me! Help me!" were too faint to hear.




Sorry! I know I'm going to pay for that, but I could not resist.

 

[Trekkin]

Their cries of "Help me! Help me!" were too faint to hear.




Sorry! I know I'm going to pay for that, but I could not resist.

Then the answer isn't to seperate them, youre supposed to crush them to death!

 

[Prax]

You'd have to prove that Tuvix died, before making any claims that someone killed him.

 

[Trekkin]

You'd have to prove that Tuvix died, before making any claims that someone killed him.

He most certainly fits our current definition of 'dead.' As did Neelix and Tuvok at the beginning of the episode.

As for Trek logic, he's currently in the same state as Neelix and Tuvok were for most of the episode.

• If that's a bad situation, then Janeway played god and damned him to it against his will.
• If it's not a bad situation, then Janeway had no reason to tear him to pieces. Well, no reason other than a selfish urge to 'have it like it was before.'

 

[Refuge]

You'd have to prove that Tuvix died, before making any claims that someone killed him.

You also have to prove Tuvix had rights as a life to begin with and I don't believe that was the case. The formation of Tuvix did not allow for Tuvok and Neelix to be sustained separately. There was never going to be a scenario where Tuvok, Neelix, and Tuvix could exist at the same time. To carry on Tuvix required the existence of Tuvok and Neelix to be denied. Tuvix was a transporter pattern. Once its particles were re-energised two lives were allowed to continue.

 

[Prax]

I see you just edited to add extra inflammatory flare to the comment.

I don't think Trill are very analogous, but since it's been brought up, in Trill society, if the symbiont is at risk of dying, the host is sacrificed. Yes, the symbiont is Ripped out of host's worthless body, and while they bleed to death, the symbiont is gently placed into a nice, cozy new womb.

As for Tuvok and Neelix, did they ever cease existing? Or are you going to say that everytime the transporter is used, the person dies, and a new version is born.

 

[Refuge]

[QUOT.[/QUOTE]
Is that avatar the eclipse?

 

[DonIago]

You also have to prove Tuvix had rights as a life to begin with and I don't believe that was the case. The formation of Tuvix did not allow for Tuvok and Neelix to be sustained separately. There was never going to be a scenario where Tuvok, Neelix, and Tuvix could exist at the same time. To carry on Tuvix required the existence of Tuvok and Neelix to be denied. Tuvix was a transporter pattern. Once its particles were re-energised two lives were allowed to continue.

Given the sorcery we've seen the transporter perform in the past (duplicating Riker, splitting Kirk in half, making people both older and younger), why should we have any reason to believe it couldn't both maintain Tuvix and restore Tuvok and Neelix independently? But of course, nobody wants to research that.

 

[Prax]

yeah. I was inspired

 

[Refuge]

Given the sorcery we've seen the transporter perform in the past (duplicating Riker, splitting Kirk in half, making people both older and younger), why should we have any reason to believe it couldn't both maintain Tuvix and restore Tuvok and Neelix independently? But of course, nobody wants to research that.

DNA can only stretch so far..lol.

 

[Trekkin]

This is assuming you're referring to me, and not Refuge. If you're not, please treat like a telemarketer who calls in the middle of dinner.

I see you just edited to add extra inflammatory flare to the comment.

Last edit: 20 minutes before you posted.

Sure. 'Just.'

I don't think Trill are very analogous, but since it's been brought up, in Trill society, if the symbiont is at risk of dying, the host is sacrificed. Yes, the symbiont is Ripped out of host's worthless body, and while they bleed to death, the symbiont is gently placed into a nice, cozy new womb.

Oh, I'm sorry. Was Tuvix already terminal before Janeway, err...'forcibly ceased everything he was doing that was identical to 'life?' Coz that's the only situation where we see a non-villain pull a Trill from its Host.

If so, I must have missed that.

As for Tuvok and Neelix, did they ever cease existing?

Again, I ask:

If they exist and not unhappy the entire time Tuvix is around, then from what and why are they being saved again?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Revenge porn, is when a spurned X, posts nudes on line of the person who jilted them.

Kes must not have been Happy that creepy Tuvix has seen her very-very naked, in Neelix's memories.

There's no criminal intent, but the results are the same.

 

[Prax]

I read your post, including your bullet points, was typing my reply, and the comment changed, or rather, I thought the comment changed. I thought a new post appeared at first, but then saw "edited one minute ago" and the second bullet point now including the phrase "to tear him to pieces." If that was originally there, I apologize and will get my memory engrams scanned in the morning.

"If they exist and are not unhappy while Tuvix is around" then it's not murder, and within Janeway's legal authority as Captain to reverse the accident.

edit: and if that were the case, and once returned to normal, Tuvok said "Damn Janeway! We really liked being one man" and Neelix "Yeah, Captain, that was cold." Janeway could simply respond "Sorry...sucks to be you."

 

[Trekkin]

"If they exist and are not unhappy while Tuvix is around" then it's not murder, and within Janeway's legal authority as Captain to reverse the accident.

It's...really not. That's a medical procedure. It's the one area where the captain can't pull ranK. IRL and in Star Trek.

And The Doctor said 'no.'

There's no criminal intent, but the results are the same.

She better watch out. I hear Tuvix isn't much one for excuses.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Remember how crotchety Borg Tuvok got about staying Borg?

 

[Prax]

A captain isn't like your boss at the local Kinko's. This isn't a civilian organization we're talking about. A Captain has the legal authority of a judge. When he/she gives an order, it's a legally binding directive. Insubordination isn't breaking a rule, it's committing a crime.

 

[Guy Gardener]

A captain isn't like your boss at the local Kinko's. This isn't a civilian organization we're talking about. A Captain has the legal authority of a judge. When he/she gives an order, it's a legally binding directive. Insubordination isn't breaking a rule, it's committing a crime.

Inside the Federation, sure.

The further away from the Federation she gets, the less jurisdiction she can pretend that she has.

Drifters in Jammies.

 

[Trekkin]

A captain isn't like your boss at the local Kinko's. This isn't a civilian organization we're talking about. A Captain has the legal authority of a judge. When he/she gives an order, it's a legally binding directive. Insubordination isn't breaking a rule, it's committing a crime.

Not in medical situations. The best they can do is order you to the Doctor, who gets the final say. And they in turn are bound to avoid performing surgery on you, unless you okay it.

There's a reason why the MO can use their discretion to remove the Captain from command. They're both within the command structure, and sort of independent from it.

 

[Prax]

Did Janeway murder "Fear" in the Thaw? Did Picard and Riker murder the bluegill symbiont? They just wanted peaceful coexistence.

How about taking this even deeper. IRL, whether or not we have souls is a philosophical debate as old as history. Did you know that in Star Trek it is not? Humans have souls in canon. What was Tuvix? Do we really know? Was Tuvix holding two crewman hostage? What happened to their souls...were those merged as well...We can't know.