Did Janeway Kill Tuvix?

That makes no sense. Voyager is an island of Federation turf floating in the ocean, just like the Enterprise is, which is usually not in Federation space. Any Enterprise. The Captain is the commanding officer of everyone on the ship. And this isn't a case of submitting to local laws in a foreign world, which the Captain's often break when the crew's safety is at risk.

 

Tuvok is a telepathic fax machine who copies his soul into a glowing egg.

Neelix believes the afterlife is a forest where all his dead friends and family are waiting for him.

There's a good chance that neither of these men went to the Afterlife, since it seems that they have all of Tuvix's memories as if they had been there the whole time.

 

Hence why the arguements never die. In philosophy, or Star Trek forums.

What I want to know is, why doesn't anyone in-universe seem to care that the Vulcans have scientifically demonstratable souls? The Vulcans just randomly kept secret something that changes our understanding of life, the universe, and everything, and it's...no biggie?

 

You're right. I forgot these weren't humans. In fact, I think I heard that kitchen rats have no souls. And Vulcan souls really get around. T'Pol had a soul, though.

 

Someone better inform this guy.

Literally. Just ask McCoy. The things hop, skip and jump all over the place.

*rubs hands together gleefully*

Now: Ask me about my feelings regarding the TOS crew purposefully shoving Spock's consciousness into a physical body that clearly already had one in residence.

 

Voyager is only sovereign territory when anyone in proximity chooses to allow Voyager to act like it's self importance is legally binding, because the Federation hasn't been formally recognized as a friendly state by all these far away DQ places who have no idea what the #### Earth is.

Remember the Devour Imperium?

Voyager bit a pillow during regular cavity inspections, because they didn't have the fire power it takes to take on an Imperium all on their own, or the gall to bluff that hundreds of ships much larger than Voyager would avenge their deaths if something iffy happened.

 

Didn't we already cover this, Not all orders given are legally binding, if the order is illegal then officers are free to disregard it. The excuse I was only following orders isn't a defense.

Now let's say for debate sake a legal order was given and some disobeyed it. One could expect to recieve a court martial, but surely that would not be heard by the officer who order was disobyed but by a different officer(s).

Janeway was emotionally invested in the outcome of what should we do we Tuvix, that alone would disqualify her from sitting in judgement. Ever said on a Jury? If you know the person who is being tried you have to recuse yourself from sitting on the Jury. As for special circumstances because of where VOY was, well they could always have placed him in statsis until such time as someone who wasn't emotioanlly invested in the outcome could hear and adjudicate the case.

 

If Voyager is also a colony, then Janeway is both the Governor and Chief of Police, and has far more authority over these people than a regular Star Ship Captain.

Starfleet Security seems to double as the only regular police service in the Federation that we have ever seen since the MACOs ####ed off.

Those Guards from Khitomer in Star Trek 6? MACOs?

 

What are your feelings regarding the TOS crew purposefully shoving Spock's consciousness into a physical body that clearly already had one in residence?

Okay, fair enough.A Lawful Order is legally binding. There is still a great deal of difference between a civilian captain of the Love Boat, and a Starfleet Captain, who has the power of law over his/her crew.

Even if she was, the onus is hers to decide the fate of her subordinates. And all of this talk is still taking for granted that the act was indeed murder, which takes for granted that Tuvix was indeed killed. Without that determination, this debate will continue to be unfruitful.

Again, we aren't talking about following the laws of a local world when visiting or passing through, we are talking about a Captain's governance, and the chain of Command, over the crew on board, who are legally sworn in to obey Starfleet regulations, rules of conduct, and legally binding, lawful orders. BTW, & FWIW Voyager did not obey the Devour Imperium's rules.

I don't think MACOs were cops, they were more like space marines. Maybe they had MACOMP's to police other MACOs on MACO bases, i dunno. Anyways, they most likely were just folded into SF. Not SF security, but these guys probably:
(sorry, I didn't feel like croping, and reuploading, part of a pic that I just posted)

 

When the only enforcers of Federation law in that Quadrant, are on that ship, you tend to follow the chain of command because you feel like it. They were a club with rules, not an empire with laws.

The moment they lost their ship in basics, there should have been a no confidence vote and Tuvok should have been put in charge, because he's old as dirt and a dad.

Tuvix could have put the entire crew into transporter suspension, and let them out one at a time, but only so long as they promised not to split him.

Tuvix could have gassed the crew and telepathically brain washed them into accepting him.

Tuvix could have pared off Janeways limbs and fat, until she was a screaming woman, and an identical measurement in weight of meat... Which is exactly what was supposed to happen when Kes sold out Janeway to the Vidiians in Fury.

Tuvix could have imprinted his personality on top of every one, so that every one is Tuvix

 

uhhh

 

Where is the actual physical being known as Tuvix?

 

He exists in Tuvok and Neelix, as two separate people. Was Verad Dax "murdered" when the symbiont was taken from him, and given back to Jadzia? Did Tuvix have a soul, that was not Tuvok and Neelix' souls?

 

Isn't that rather like asking whether a child has a soul that is not its parents' souls? Rather literally, since in this case what occurred was, for the plant at least, a form of reproduction.

 

Tuvix wasn't the offspring of Neelix and Tuvok. He was Neelix and Tuvok.

 

Well if you want to bring Souls into it prove that Neelix and Tuvok have a soul?



We do have an example of where souls are mentioned in a court ruling TNGs "The Measure of a Man"

It sits there looking at me, and I don't know what it is. This case has dealt with metaphysics, with questions best left to saints and philosophers. I'm neither competent nor qualified to answer those. I've got to make a ruling, to try to speak to the future. Is Data a machine? Yes. Is he the property of Starfleet? No. We have all been dancing around the basic issue. Does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have. But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Lieutenant Commander Data has the freedom to choose.

 

Janeway would have turned Data into a coffee maker.

 

Star Trek Characters who have souls:
Captain Janeway
Cha-Ko-Tay
Commander Trip
Ensign Hoshi
Lieutenant Reed

I'll have to do some serious pondering to find more. Be back shortly.

 

I'd think there was pretty empirical evidence that Spock had one...

 

I don't know how to define spocks katra