I mean, the Ferengi have replicators but still use money. You need to pay for replicated stuff at Quarks.
Did Gene Roddenberry make a mistake in Star Trek?
- Thread starter James Wright
- Start date
Star Trek is set in an imaginary world where viruses made stupid space werewolves into human form, where devil looking aliens have green blood and show off Jewish hand gestures, spaceships using tech which takes them to different star systems but also includes sound effects in a realm SPACE we know has none. Teleportation machines which turns organisms into energy for transportation, also there's gravity on these spaceships. Why question the "no money" nonsense when there's other examples of nonsense??? Did Roddenberry made a mistake on the no money theme? The answer is NO! If it was a mistake to make the no money angle then it was a mistake for everything else. You don't pick and choose, even though there are many in this forum try to make their brain work too hard on concepts which worked for the universe created, it is what it is.
Star Trek is a mistake.
Both Star Trek and I have that problem (Thanks, Mom). But, hopefully, we've bettered ourselves and made the world a better place.
We also both don't have any money.
At least we can all agree that Starfleet may or may not be a miltary organization.
I spent most of my 20s and 30s thinking it would nice if we didn't need money for everything... but that's a whole other story that has nothing to do with Star Trek.
TOS didn't have replicators, and DID have money..... so I'm not sure what Gene could have messed up, at least initially.
The 1970s is a different story.
The 1970s is a different story.
I've always seen it this way: in the post-scarcity Federation every one has a home, clothes, food & drink, medical care education and other basics needed for a comfortable life. The credit system sometimes mentioned covers the only limited resource left: energy (a'la the transporter credits mentioned in Explorers). To my mind that's why Siskos dad has a restaurant and there are people willing to work in the restaurant. If people want to power their holodecks or anything bigger than a basic replicator, if they want to travel interstellar or beam over to Paris, they need some credits, so people without a passion or calling like the starfleet crew and brilliant scientists we usually see work a couple shifts a week as waiters or whatever so they can have holodeck fun or travel more often or partake in some other energy intense endeavor.
I like how you just ignored the post above you and posted a silly video.
A video pointing out every TOS reference to NOT having food replicators. A fabricator would be a completely different technology.
There are BTS videos that show that the Discovery "fabricators" are called replicators. My head canon, to accommodate Harry Kim's statement, is that the 23rd century replicators work on a different system. It's even likely that the food slots aren't fully replicators (more like automats with robots building the food from preprogrammed ingredients), and only matter is replicated for non-edible uses (i.e. advanced 3D printers using bulk matter storage for material).
Okay, so let me do an apologists' breakdown of Grin's video:
* 0:07 - Harry Kim (in Flashback) says that the era of Captain Sulu, Captain Kirk, and Dr. McCoy didn't have replicators (he also says holodecks in the full clip). Kim *could* be wrong here, and the replicators and holodeck on the Discovery might be experimental technology not brought out to the fleet or society at large for decades (to accommodate Flashback's locale in the 2290s). I think it's easiest to assume that "replicator" and maybe even "holodeck" were terms in the 23rd century for technologies that were still very primitive compared to the their 24th century counterparts.
* 0:22 - BTS video of a producer describing Pike's Executive Replicator. Just because she calls his food slot a replicator, doesn't make it so. I mean, why would he have a completely stocked bar if there was a replicator right there?
* 0:41 - The Enterprise has enough food to feed a crew of 430 for five years. Good redundancy system if they do have some sort of replicator backup. Note: the Enterprise is older than the Discovery, and it's likely they don't utilize the experimental replicator technology, if there is such a thing.
* 0:48 - Charlie Evans was on an even older ship than the Enterprise (and old transport ship), which probably didn't have this high-falutin' technology.
* 1:07 - Janice is concerned that Charlie has access to a special green perfume outside of the ship stores. More likely that the replicators/fabricators were primitive enough that they couldn't created the special aromatic, chemical blend of her favorite perfume.
* 1:15 - I contend that the food stuff on the Enterprise isn't replicated (and probably on the Discovery as well), but synthesized from existing foodstuff. Kirk talking about "synthetic meatloaf" proves my contention. Yeah, and then Charlie creates real turkeys, which is magic and freaks everyone out, of course.
* 1:28 - I don't consider that Tribble Commercial part of Star Trek, so them using a replicator is no big deal. I mean, it replicates real life creatures (Tribbles), something not even TNG replicators did. If it is, somehow, some way, real canon, then it's clearly a commercial that might use special effects (i.e., what it really is doing).
* 1:47 - I don't think they can replicate food, but they might use food grain (and colonies do, as well).
* 1:56 - The Tribbles are hanging out in food slots (and all the other food processors too).
* 2:14 - "The food synthesizers cannot manufacture enough food for the entire journey." - Great line, proving that food is created (i.e. replicated or synthesized or whatever you want to call it) and not just stored outright on the Enterprise. That is has a finite shelf life before the synthesizers break down or they need to use prepared one-time material to synthesize the food is likely.
* 2:22 - The Enterprise-A has a fully-staffed Galley. They're a diplomatic ship at this time, not on a five-year mission, and likely synthetic food in this era (like replicated food in the next) is probably less palatable than real food.
* 2:52 - Kirk's Uncle's Cabin having an old style 20th century look makes sense for a rustic feel, especially since he's about to go horseback riding.
* 3:00 - Food Slot action. They use cards on the Enterprise, touch screen codes on the Cabot, and voice command on the Discovery, but this seems to be all doing the same thing, probably utilizing a preplanned (but perhaps extensive) menu of available food (that is likely synthesized on the spot based on available ingredients).
* 4:20 - Both Scotty (in TAS) and then Tilly (in Short Treks) have almost the exact same thing of the food slot spitting out food at an exponential rate. Scott even calls it a "food factory," showcasing that it probably is synthesizing the food at the moment of request.
* 4:40 - Multiple references (from Discovery Season 3, but referring to events from the 2250s) to synthehol, capped off with the scene from Relics where Data informs Scotty about what synthehol is. This is a notable continuity error, but it's possible that synthehol was an experimental technology (a synthetic alcohol without the inebriating effects) used heavily on the Discovery, but not on any of Scotty's ships at the time, and would be adopted by Starfleet at large only after 2294 sometime, thus Data could believe that Scotty might not be familiar with it (he may have just been surprised at its use in a fully stocked bar).
* 5:13 - Scotty complimenting the replicator. He also liked the warp engine, that doesn't mean he wasn't familiar with the technology.
* 5:52 - Some uniform fabricating from Discovery. I always assumed, years before Discovery, that similar fabricating occurred on the Enterprise. I mean, they didn't just have Nazi uniforms on hand. Probably 3D printed it, with fancy lasers, as Discovery did.
* 6:49 - Terok Nor/Deep Space 9 probably didn't have a uniform fabricator, and the officers were required to bring their proper change of clothing (which Bashir failed to do).
* 6:56 - There's alot of questionable stuff in Ephraim & Dot, but I don't think the laundry is one of them. It's likely that fabrication/synthesizing of clothing is a limited allowance, and uniforms are reused instead of discarded every night. Michael had to fabricate a uniform, but she may have kept it and cleaned it afterwards on a regular basis.
* 7:15 - They have a "garment reprocessor" on the Enterprise-D. That's 100 years later, with much more advanced technology.
* 8:12 - TOS uniforms are xenylon, but Discovery are not.
* 8:34 - This just tells me that the the replicators in the 24th century provide nutritious content, regardless of what you order, but in the 23rd century, the "replicator" didn't have the ability to hide the nutrition in fatty and sugar and over-caffeinated drinks.
* 8:50 - Goes onto some of the holodeck conundrums I mentioned earlier.
* 0:07 - Harry Kim (in Flashback) says that the era of Captain Sulu, Captain Kirk, and Dr. McCoy didn't have replicators (he also says holodecks in the full clip). Kim *could* be wrong here, and the replicators and holodeck on the Discovery might be experimental technology not brought out to the fleet or society at large for decades (to accommodate Flashback's locale in the 2290s). I think it's easiest to assume that "replicator" and maybe even "holodeck" were terms in the 23rd century for technologies that were still very primitive compared to the their 24th century counterparts.
* 0:22 - BTS video of a producer describing Pike's Executive Replicator. Just because she calls his food slot a replicator, doesn't make it so. I mean, why would he have a completely stocked bar if there was a replicator right there?
* 0:41 - The Enterprise has enough food to feed a crew of 430 for five years. Good redundancy system if they do have some sort of replicator backup. Note: the Enterprise is older than the Discovery, and it's likely they don't utilize the experimental replicator technology, if there is such a thing.
* 0:48 - Charlie Evans was on an even older ship than the Enterprise (and old transport ship), which probably didn't have this high-falutin' technology.
* 1:07 - Janice is concerned that Charlie has access to a special green perfume outside of the ship stores. More likely that the replicators/fabricators were primitive enough that they couldn't created the special aromatic, chemical blend of her favorite perfume.
* 1:15 - I contend that the food stuff on the Enterprise isn't replicated (and probably on the Discovery as well), but synthesized from existing foodstuff. Kirk talking about "synthetic meatloaf" proves my contention. Yeah, and then Charlie creates real turkeys, which is magic and freaks everyone out, of course.
* 1:28 - I don't consider that Tribble Commercial part of Star Trek, so them using a replicator is no big deal. I mean, it replicates real life creatures (Tribbles), something not even TNG replicators did. If it is, somehow, some way, real canon, then it's clearly a commercial that might use special effects (i.e., what it really is doing).
* 1:47 - I don't think they can replicate food, but they might use food grain (and colonies do, as well).
* 1:56 - The Tribbles are hanging out in food slots (and all the other food processors too).
* 2:14 - "The food synthesizers cannot manufacture enough food for the entire journey." - Great line, proving that food is created (i.e. replicated or synthesized or whatever you want to call it) and not just stored outright on the Enterprise. That is has a finite shelf life before the synthesizers break down or they need to use prepared one-time material to synthesize the food is likely.
* 2:22 - The Enterprise-A has a fully-staffed Galley. They're a diplomatic ship at this time, not on a five-year mission, and likely synthetic food in this era (like replicated food in the next) is probably less palatable than real food.
* 2:52 - Kirk's Uncle's Cabin having an old style 20th century look makes sense for a rustic feel, especially since he's about to go horseback riding.
* 3:00 - Food Slot action. They use cards on the Enterprise, touch screen codes on the Cabot, and voice command on the Discovery, but this seems to be all doing the same thing, probably utilizing a preplanned (but perhaps extensive) menu of available food (that is likely synthesized on the spot based on available ingredients).
* 4:20 - Both Scotty (in TAS) and then Tilly (in Short Treks) have almost the exact same thing of the food slot spitting out food at an exponential rate. Scott even calls it a "food factory," showcasing that it probably is synthesizing the food at the moment of request.
* 4:40 - Multiple references (from Discovery Season 3, but referring to events from the 2250s) to synthehol, capped off with the scene from Relics where Data informs Scotty about what synthehol is. This is a notable continuity error, but it's possible that synthehol was an experimental technology (a synthetic alcohol without the inebriating effects) used heavily on the Discovery, but not on any of Scotty's ships at the time, and would be adopted by Starfleet at large only after 2294 sometime, thus Data could believe that Scotty might not be familiar with it (he may have just been surprised at its use in a fully stocked bar).
* 5:13 - Scotty complimenting the replicator. He also liked the warp engine, that doesn't mean he wasn't familiar with the technology.
* 5:52 - Some uniform fabricating from Discovery. I always assumed, years before Discovery, that similar fabricating occurred on the Enterprise. I mean, they didn't just have Nazi uniforms on hand. Probably 3D printed it, with fancy lasers, as Discovery did.
* 6:49 - Terok Nor/Deep Space 9 probably didn't have a uniform fabricator, and the officers were required to bring their proper change of clothing (which Bashir failed to do).
* 6:56 - There's alot of questionable stuff in Ephraim & Dot, but I don't think the laundry is one of them. It's likely that fabrication/synthesizing of clothing is a limited allowance, and uniforms are reused instead of discarded every night. Michael had to fabricate a uniform, but she may have kept it and cleaned it afterwards on a regular basis.
* 7:15 - They have a "garment reprocessor" on the Enterprise-D. That's 100 years later, with much more advanced technology.
* 8:12 - TOS uniforms are xenylon, but Discovery are not.
* 8:34 - This just tells me that the the replicators in the 24th century provide nutritious content, regardless of what you order, but in the 23rd century, the "replicator" didn't have the ability to hide the nutrition in fatty and sugar and over-caffeinated drinks.
* 8:50 - Goes onto some of the holodeck conundrums I mentioned earlier.
I think the real mistake is the lack of follow-through and the shoddy dilettante way this question is treated by the writers. It's ok to present a society based on different values from ours but you have to actually THINK about it not just limit yourself to a list of inane platitudes.
And that one's even easier, because it's not even referred to as a holodeck. I know the duck test is in play here, but we don't know the feel, the texture, the smell and ambiance of the 23rd century holographic battle simulator/recreation room and how that compares to the all-encompassing experience of the 24th century holodeck/holosuite.
The writer described it as really advanced VR. Though Tyler does smack a control panel.
The real challenge is in simulating people. It's one thing to have Klingons coming at you as in a shoot-em-up game it's another to have people that you can interact with and touch and have... intimate relations with... It demands a much finer work.
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