Did anyone really care about the Ba'ku?

[c0rnedfr0g]

They're the peace-loving, squatting immortals on the planet from Insurrection who wouldn't share the planet with the billions of needy UFP citizens.

Just wondering how much people cared about them or their 'plight' during the movie. Personally, I didn't give a hoot and could not relate, so that really prevented me from being engaged in the plot or the movie in general.

What were your thoughts?

 

[T J]

Fuck 'em!

 

[JNG]

They had almost no culture or identifying characteristics, they didn't really do anything interesting, and yes, they should have allowed more research or habitation or whatever...come on, they are living in the Fountain of Youth.

Man, that movie was a misfire.

 

[Kronos]

600 people get one entire planet? Come on, move them to a tiny section, blow the rubber face people away and start using the radiation for good.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

600 people get one entire planet? Come on, move them to a tiny section, blow the rubber face people away and start using the radiation for good.

the federation could've used a lot of the planet and the ba'ku might not even know. planets are big (i've been told). How many people around the world can see rockets or planes taking off from China? only those that are near them, i'd imagine

 

[Kirk1980]

I'm sure that they could have been on the planet far away enough not to contaminate them. It's not like their culture was either a) always there *being ALREADY a transplanted race* or b) protected under the Prime Directive.

Aren't there supposed to be script editors who pick up on this sort of thing?

 

[Good Will Riker]

The entire film is an insult to viewer intelligence.

Places have been invaded and taken over for far less reasoning throughout mankind's history.

I would not be surprised if there are actually more raise of hands in support of the United Federation of Planets's take over of the Ba'ku planet's "fountain of youth" radiation over that of President Bush's decision to send American troops into Iraq.

 

[Timo]

Hey, the UFP government did vote in favor of ousting the greedy little bastards. It was only as the result of Picard's confronting of the Son'a that they had to reconsider the matter (since obviously the original proposal of sucking the rings into the Son'a collector could no longer be used), but there's no particular indication that the second vote wouldn't carry the same result.

OTOH, the Fountain of Youth apparently wasn't all it was marketed to be, as the rejuvenating effects it had on LaForge's eyes clearly did not take. So perhaps the Ba'ku got to keep their wayside little planet after all? It's not that unusual to have planets with a population counted in hundreds: bold colonists typically start it out that way, it seems, and sometimes it takes generations until there is a second wave or other population-boosting step.

In any case, no sympathy for the Ba'ku. Then again, they themselves never insisted that they should have the planet all for themselves. The UFP could probably have negotiated the right to settle a few billion people there - they just didn't think this would have been an option, because the Son'a convinced them that the giant vacuum cleaner had to be used instead.

The movie is actually a perfectly good vehicle for Roddenberry's oft-quoted message: conflict should and would disappear in a puff of smoke if people just sat down and talked.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jgdst]

Hey, the UFP government did vote in favor of ousting the greedy little bastards.

That made me giggle, that did.

I'd never really questioned Picard fighting the good fight until I came into this thread and really thought about it.

Dougherty actually has a very valid point when he says the PD doesn't apply as they're not native to the planet. Also they are a warp capable race, but by their own choice have abandoned it. For the sake of medical research, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, QED.

A couple of questions I have now: 1 - I echo Troi's question of why Starfleet would ever get involved with people like the Son'a, regardless of whether they were fighting a war or not at the time.
2 - was the Briar Patch in Federation space? If not, then it's reminiscent of the TNG Section 31 novel to me, as you're in no-man's land and so can't really lay a claim.
3 - Was the Ba'ku homeworld actually destroyed? They say they left when it was on the brink of self annihilation. If not, then encourage them to go back and make nice with the locals.

Thanks to this thread, my enjoyment of this film just dropped a couple of points. It's raped my childhood

 

[Timo]

1) The Fountain of Youth sounded like a strategic asset: the UFP would have to move clandestinely and swiftly to grab it before others did, or went to bloody war over it. The Son'a offer of a quick grab must have been tempting. And it's not as if the Feds have had qualms with their alliances before: they hobnob with the Klingons in TNG and most of DS9, hobnobbed with the Romulans in ST6, agree to keep Vulcans as members despite their ritual-due-to-death habits, etc.

2) Yes, the nebula-thing was said to be Federation territory. The planet was said to belong to the Federation, too - but probably only in the sense that the Feds claimed it for themselves so that nobody else would be able to go mess with the primitive natives. That is, it wasn't important that the Feds owned the planet, it was important that the Son'a could not legally claim ownership. Probably quite a few planets out there are owned by the UFP in that manner - say, Malcoria - until their natives can make contact with the interstellar community and establish their own ownership.

3) No mention was made of the homeworld being lost. Then again, the Son'a were said to be makers of Ketracel White; might this mean that they had come from the Gamma Quadrant, the only known region where such a thing was of use? Perhaps the original Son'a/Ba'ku refugees had come a long, long way, and might not have the practical means to return.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blueziggy]

what would have made the movie better if that the baku werent a peace loving flower people. in fact switch the locations of the baku and the sona. the sona are on the planet with all their slaves and what not, the baku are slaves that escaped and are now coming back for revenge. throw in the fountain of youth aspects.

picard has a choice. disobey starfleet orders and save the slave driving people, or obey orders and attack and remove them. the prime directive is all nice and everything when the people are a good people, but it would be turned on its head if the people its protecting are committing atrocities.

 

[Dorothy_Zbornak]

The Ba'ku came from the Son'a homeworld--I think this was supposed to have been implied but the message gets lost. So these outcasts from the Ba'ku planet return to their Son'a homeworld, rally an army with the promise of eternal life and voila=a new empire to rival the Federation.

It makes more sense than a ragtag band of misanthropes who somehow have a fleet of technologically advanced ships and two subservient races they've conquered.

Anyways, the Ba'ku--who cares. They didn't merit a movie. They were worth a TNG Season 7 two-parter at best and even that's stretching it.

 

[jgdst]

It makes more sense than a ragtag band of misanthropes who somehow have a fleet of technologically advanced ships and two subservient races they've conquered.

Exactly. All 38 Son'a managed this on their own. The fact they have all this power implies the majority of the Ba'ku settlers left the planet behind a century ago. Ergo, the Ba'ku are wrong. It's haphazard logic, but I could hardly be called on that considering the rest of the script, could I?

Anyways, the Ba'ku--who cares. They didn't merit a movie. They were worth a TNG Season 7 two-parter at best and even that's stretching it.

They should've done an episode where they're transferred to that holoship, and they're not even aware. Maybe have Worf guide them on a fake 'journey' through the holodeck so they'll understand why their homes look dif... WAIT A MINUTE... This has been done before on Sesame Street hasn't it?

(love the avatar by the way - most frightening admiral ever )

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

The Ba'ku were naiive, selfish idiots. Here's why:

1. If you discover a 'fountain of youth' planet, even if you're a society that's given up technology, you still need to be willing to fight for and defend what's important. To be a warp-capable species and just assume that no one else will be interested in this planet is ridiculous. The Ba'ku cannot rely on the moral consciences of outsiders to protect their home.

2. As a warp-capable species, the Ba'ku had to be somewhat aware of expanding territorial claims of other civilizations. In anticipation, they should've made their claim to that planet clear to other interstellar species, for example being ready with a representative for their people, instead of just hiding out and hoping nobody comes to kick them off the planet.

3. With an entire planet, the Ba'ku could not even share it with their own children. How was this enforced? Why couldn't the Son'a simply move to another area of the planet? How did the Ba'ku make them leave, if they're so reluctant to take up arms? Also, why did they make them leave, if they're so enlightened? It seems like they could all live on that planet and have little to no contact with each other.

For the Ba'ku to just sit around while this happens to them seems to indicate the planet is not worth that much to them afterall, since apparently it isn't worth fighting for. And in the end, do the needs of the many not outweigh the needs of the few (unless those few are willing to do something other than just sit around and cry)??

 

[Timo]

Usually, it's the fight that the fighters deem worth fighting for, rather than anything else. And usually, it does little good for that "anything else". Clearly, the Ba'ku managed to drive off the Son'a the first time, without resorting to conventional force. When the Son'a came back, they had giant starships and powerful weapons - but still they feared the Ba'ku so much that they proceeded with an indirect plan calling for subterfuge, orbital environmental warfare, and the support of a mighty local star empire. Had Picard not been there to "protect" the Ba'ku, we might have seen what it was that the Son'a so feared...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dorothy_Zbornak]

The Ba'ku were naiive, selfish idiots. Here's why:

1. If you discover a 'fountain of youth' planet, even if you're a society that's given up technology, you still need to be willing to fight for and defend what's important. To be a warp-capable species and just assume that no one else will be interested in this planet is ridiculous. The Ba'ku cannot rely on the moral consciences of outsiders to protect their home.

That and the very fact of a culture so devoted to living naturally without technology, being in touch with nature and such and yet they willingly defy nature by ... not dying.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

i still can't decide if the message of this story is

1. Finders, keepers. Everyone else, deal.

or

2. If you're a very privileged people sitting on a valuable resource, don't worry about lifting a finger to defend it. Just wait for some powerful, complete do-gooder strangers to show up and protect you (and in the process expecting nothing in return for their efforts).

haha, kind of like that Simpson's song: "You Can Always Rely On The Kindness of Strangers."

 

[Kirk1980]

Also another important moral....

Make sure one of your leaders is hot enough for the middle-aged starship captain to stop thinking entirely rationally.

 

[Trekker4747]

People who start threads like this, thinking that the Federation was in the right and the Bak'u in the wrong obviously missed the entire point of the movie, Picard's speech and further the entire franchise.

First of all, the Bak'u had more claim on the planet than the Federation.

The Bak'u had founded their colony before the Federation had any territory over the planet. The Bak'u had established residency and homestead over the planet. They had far more claim to it.

They never seemed opposed to the idea of others settling on the planet, as a matter of fact the Son'a rejected the idea -not wanting to live in the isolated system.

Some above had said that stuff like this has been done before and it was only a small number of people.

As Picard, himself said. This was just as wrong as every forced relocation in history and how many does it take to make it wrong?

Seriously. Were you all just no paying attention to the ideas and values that this movie and Trek as a whole were trying to teach?

The Federation, the Son'a neither of them had any more claim on that planet than the Bak'u. The Bak'u had established their residency there and had lived there for centuries -beyond the time of the Federation.

The Federation had NO RIGHTS to the planet at all. Other than simply saying, "you founded a planet in an area of space that'll be under our borders centuries after you found it. So it is ours."

Huh?!??!

 

[Timo]

It may get a bit confusing to decide who is "right" and who is "wrong" when all the players in the movie are just shadowboxing. None are fighting a real adversary - all are being misled into fighting an opponent that doesn't really exist. Which incidentally means that the Ba'ku have the best idea when they don't fight at all.

As for the issue of the first-to-come having "rights", it's only civilized that such "rights" be overruled whenever common good calls for it.

After all, rights exist as a concept only through the acknowledgement of the rights by the empowered party - in a democracy, this means the majority through the representative government. It's the empowered party that gets to decide which rights exist and which do not. And no sane democracy would decide that a few squatters shouting "Hell, no, we won't go!" would have the right to do so if it conflicted with common good.

But as said, such confrontations in the movie were all illusory. After all the layers of lies were removed, there was no conflict there.

Timo Saloniemi