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Did anyone else have a problem with Equinox, part two?

I don't think that word means what Cepstrum thinks it means. :)

I do wish people would stop calling what Sisko did attempted murder and such, though. From all indications he gave the Maquis what should be sufficient time to evacuate the planet...hell, he broadcast his intentions in advance.

Besides, if you really want to rake Sisko over the coals, ITPM is such a better choice.

If giving warning means it isn't attempted murder, then Janeway gets off, too. She warned Lessing well in advance. :lol:
 
I don't think that word means what Cepstrum thinks it means. :)

I do wish people would stop calling what Sisko did attempted murder and such, though. From all indications he gave the Maquis what should be sufficient time to evacuate the planet...hell, he broadcast his intentions in advance.

Besides, if you really want to rake Sisko over the coals, ITPM is such a better choice.

If giving warning means it isn't attempted murder, then Janeway gets off, too. She warned Lessing well in advance. :lol:

Fair enough...sort of...but in order to escape death all the Maquis had to do was get into spaceships and leave. Sisko didn't threaten to destroy any ships that broke orbit until his demands were met.

Lessing had no such avenue of escape. It might be more analogous if Janeway had said, "If you don't want to talk or die you can hop into that escape pod and we'll pick you up later."
 
All he had to do was help Janeway stop Equinox. His loyalty to Ransom notwithstanding, he was subordinate to Janeway, too. Tell Ransom he was just following orders--he was good at that. :p
 
Directive 101. The right to avoid self incrimination. (Voy Meld)

Noah was perfectly within his rights not to let this mad woman hunt down and execute his friends and crewmates to satisfy her strange vendetta.

How often have members of Voyagers crew been interrogated or afforded the opportunity to interrogate?

Chakotay having his sperm harvested, Kes in warlord when that dick with the keen fashion sense was using her body promising to screw Tuvok till his toes curl. The Doctor in renaissance m.... Actually that's a fabulous point: Janeway chose to die rather than betray her crew and ship. The Doctor however buckled and wouldn't let her steel will be the lady's downfall. Chakotay completely and totally drank Annorax's coolaide. Harry was a Hirogen Collaborator. He saluted their flag and sang the national anthem every morning... And all it took was a vague threat about killing "someone" or "anyone" or "whoever" and he became their dogslave for a month teaching these hunters the nuts and bolts to forbidden technology they had no right to possess with out seriously endangering their society. What was the Doctors response to torture when Starling turned her tactile receptors up to 11? If that Alien Scientist in the Omega Directive hadn't been so forth coming believing/assuming that Janeway was their to save his people and their omega, she would have been allowed to torture him legally till the cows come home (Which is beside the point but it would have been interesting to see the difference between a fake interrogation and a real interrogation if there was one.).

It's really a divy between if the character is being right or righteous.
 
Half the posters in the Voyager Forum claim to be women.

Sample your audience.

Besides, that monthly shot to avoid pregnancy Cassidy Yates talked about wouldn't be worth a damn if it didn't arrest every particular of menstruation, or at least there were options/degrees/different packages available depending on how much of the "female experience" these 24th century women believed they were fairly due.

If the Period had been brought to a full stop, that might explain why Janis Lester's criticism was no longer relevant and Janeway had been "allowed" to raise to he rank of captain.
 
I actually really liked this two parter. one, it gave us a contrast as to the fact that Janeway's crew lived in relative luxury while in the delta quadrant. what would they have done in Ransom's shoes? Could they have done that? that was one of the main questions.

Rransom: "It's easy to stick to your starfleet principles when your bulkhead's are in tact and your people aren't starving."

Janeway: "Irrelevant" or something to that effect.

Actually it's very relavant, and i think her behavior is a typical reaction when you consider that the goings on of her mind was probably telling her that it could've easily come to that more than she would like to admit. so her reaction to ransom was a reaction to her 'evil' self. it's a jekyl and hyde psychological dilemma.

Also, as for Janeway being relieved...I don't think that in Voyager's situation that is the best idea. Janeway has carried that crew for years, so she would have a lot of people loyal to her, and yes it would prolly cause a lot of unrest. To have a mutiny on board without any starfleet support would be disasterous, which is one of the things pointed out in the end between Janeway and Chakotay...ultimately, chakotay held his tongue and decided the future of the crew was more important, and obviously had enough respect for Janeway to think that she wouldn't do anything too extreme (at least in their specific situation.) Tuvok, being the logical Vulcan, probably trusted Chakotay's reluctance to relieve Janeway, and followed suit being a subordinate officer. And not doing it himself only supports how well he is supposed to know Janeway, so that he is not completley surprised by her reaction tells me that she is like this in extreme situations and circumstances. And come on, the needs of the many (the lives of those aliens) outweigh the needs of the few(the lives of the crew of Voyager and Equinox), so right there supports his actions.

Also, to cause a chain of command upheaval on a small ship with no outside support or incoming crew would also be disasterous, and set precedent for doing things in the future, and at that point who knows how long they knew they were going to be in the delta quadrant. There is a reason that Kim never got past ensign, or promotions were not normally given (except in cases where it didn't involve a transfer of duties, IE Tuvok or Paris' promotions). To relieve a Captain would require tremendous effort in the transfer of overall duties...Chakotay would have to be Captain, Tuvok most likely first officer, Kim to tactical, Paris probably still at the helm (being the best on board) but with a promotion, and an entirely new ops position would be open. That's the tip of the perverbial iceberg. To do this on a ship, again, with no outside support is really a last ditch effort, and I'm sure that if Janeway had gone too far and Tuvok saw another way out that didn't involve the destruction of Voyager or Equinox, he would've phasered Janeway on stun in a heart beat. But clearly Tuvok trusted janeway. Remember when the captive was in the cargo bay and the sheilds were dropped:

"He'll break..." - Janeway. "HE'LL break..."

This to me says she has experience in interrogation, war times, and other instances which might require extrodinary command decisions. She would've been around during the Cardassian wars, and more than likely during other times as well of tense political relationships.

Removing a Captain requires extrodinary reasons and circumstances, more so than a reaction of a Captain to an extrodinary circumstance. To remove her, she had to be even more crazy than ransom, which I never believe she was. Captain's are tasked with the job of making decisions that not even the first officer has experience to make.
 
"He'll break..." - Janeway. "HE'LL break..."

This to me says she has experience in interrogation, war times, and other instances which might require extrodinary command decisions. She would've been around during the Cardassian wars, and more than likely during other times as well of tense political relationships.

According to Jeri Taylor, Janeway and Admiral(Captain then, I think) Paris were captured by Cardassian's before her first fiancé Justin Tighe saved them. I don't think anything happened to her, I think Admiral Paris took all of the abuse, but she would have interrogation experience. First hand.

Of course none of that is canon, since it was just in Mosaics.
 
Well Kent, you certainly talk a good game...but, in my case at least, you fail to persuade.

One does have to appreciate the irony that Janeway, who was willing to cause unrest by imposing her will upon others in pursuit of what she considered right, would have subordinates who weren't willing to do the same.

Heck, letting morality slide because of an unwillingness to cause unrest was probably one of the factors that turned Equinox into the ship it became.

Really, we know exactly how this would have gone if Chakotay had been the one pushing to throw Lessing into the cargo bay and Janeway had made a, "That isn't the Starfleet way," speech.
 
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Actually it did happen, and Janeway was pissed.

Kinda.

Janeway created an alliance with the Borg.

Chakotay Spaced them while she was napping.

Cargo Bay, threats and murder followed by an argument between Janeway and Chakotay.

I don't think that he weathered that fracas any the worse once he admitted who was boss and put his own ideas to bed?
 
But what Janeway was doing was right. The other ship was murdering innocent species in experiments not unlike what the Nazi's were doing to jews in world war two. She had every right, as a starfleet officer, to pursue and bring these people to justice. Let's review:

1: they betray their CORE HUMAN principles, not even just Starfleet and Federation principles. So they are in effect serial murderers, all of them. I say serial killer because their 'type', their 'prey' if you will, is all the same, not unlike Jon Wayne Gacey who liked boys, and specifically little boys, to take home and murder then bury.

2: they deliberately, and with care, kept this from Janeway and her staff, betraying them, and damaging Voyager in the process once they found out. How is this not unlike being attacked by an alien ship and responding with deadly force?

3: they stole the piece of technology that could help Voyager from being attacked by those aliens, as much on the side of right as they were. Equinox essentially left Voyager for dead, and they suffered deaths for sure. So now not only has the Equinox attacked and murdered probably hundreds of these sentient aliens for fuel, they are now directly responsible for the deaths of Voyager's crew.

4: When law enforcement officials go on a manhunt for a crazy-ass serial killer, they don't stop because someone says, WHOAH, you're really taking this a little too far dontchya think? The general response would more than likely be: this person has killed lots of people. I am going to do whatever it takes to stop it from happening again because it's already gone too far. Janeway did no different, and would probably be bound by Starfleet to pursue the rogue Federation vessel for not only inciting a war between this species and the Federation, not only for attacking fellow Starfleet officers and causing their deaths, but for murdering these innocent beings for their own selfish game.

4: Worf had to do the same thing while taking the Defiant to Earth to tell them there are no changelings in Starfleet. When the Lakota fired on the Defiant, they had to respond with force and the ensuing attack left casualties on both sides. Though the Lakota didn't MURDER an innocent species for fuel, they did enough to warrent deadly force. Imagine what Starfleet would've done if they found out a rogue Starfleet vessel had attacked a fellow vessel, killed Starfleet officers, and on top of that murdered innocent beings for fuel. They would send multiple ships to track it down and bring it to justice, and they wouldn't stop until that mission was successful. Janeway did just that, except she had to do it on her own.

Forget all my other reasons of my previous post, though they still stand. The Equinox are a crew of murderers, of their own kind and of other kinds. THAT is REASON ENOUGH to pursue them with all means available.

If you want to call that a vendetta, then so be it.
 
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That's the difference between how you feel and how I and others feel - we don't believe that the fact that someone is committing murder is sufficient justification to abuse them, and we also can't find any evidence within Trek to suggest that Starfleet would condone Janeway's conduct, at least not as-of the founding of the UFP.

As I said above, what Janeway did strikes me as behavior more typical of Section 31 than of Starfleet. Victory at any cost, the ends justify the means.

Some would say that the moment you sacrifice your own humanity to save the day, you've already lost.
 
Janeway was not stopping murder or punishing murderers with federation justice.

Up to a point when she realized she could lie and cheat her way out of this clusterfuck by fibbing to the ravaged party of mass murder, Janeway was playing errandgirl facilitating the extradition of the Equinox crew into Space beastie possession for immediate execution.

(Was the interrogation before or after the deal?)

Noah was already dead.

Janeway was interrogating a deadman.

She had already agreed to feed him to the space beasties so she didn't have to treat him like a person with rights because he was really just a corpse who was overstaying his welcome.

Feed him to the space beasties now, feed him to the space beasties later?

Splitting hairs.

She made a deal.

A woman is only as good as her word.

If Janeway didn't feed Lessing to the space beasties, quite obviously she was going to forfeit her crew to the Space beasties rage who would be expecting Janeway to settle up on Ransoms accounts and after her crew had been murdered and eaten, and then... Onward to earth!

So she didn't attempt to murder a man who was already dead, because you can't, and mark this, that Noah was not even dead at the hands of any one else but his own compliance to follow through on illegal and immoral orders.

Janeway was innocent of the crime of attempted murder.

(Immoral handling of the dead is another case entirely.)

Lessing began committing suicide weeks maybe months before Janewy tied him to that chair.
 
I still stand by the simple fact that she pursued a rogue fed ship hell bent on destroying sentiant life to sustain itself and crew. forget that it's murder to do what they did. actually let's not forget that

it's murder. the equinox murdered sentiant species for it's own goals, killing fellow officers and endangering the federation by exposing it to an all out (another one) war.

why is the fact that what they did was murder forgotten on people? that's what they did...that goes against any core principles of humanity.

and yes there was some vengeance there with her being tricked and the psychological dilemma's of whathaveyou.

but bottom line is they murdered in the name of the federation. starfleet. the represented humans as a murderous race. it's simply not acceptable, and starfleet would've assigned a task force to bring equinox down.

did she make some mistakes...sure. did the interrogation border on so not okay, yes, it was a little section 31...but even our own government has provisions for such force. was she pretty hell bent...yup. and was her mind maybe too keen on ransom...uh huh. but it was an extrodinary circumstance. one that roddenberry himself said human's were supposedly above. ultimately, ULTIMATELY, yes she did the right thing.
 
I wouldn't say the Equinox crew were "hell-bent on destroying sentient life". I would say they intended to kill enough of those particular aliens to get home, but I doubt they, for instance, planned to actually exterminate the species. I'm not so much defending their actions as an unfairly broad generalization of them.

Once again, I don't care -what- the Equinox crew were doing, that doesn't justify abandoning your own laws and principles to bring them to justice. Or if it does, then congratulations...now you should face the same charges they did.

As the Federation at large had nothing to do with Equinox's actions, and would surely have condemned them, unless we're going to assume that the alien species was so simplistic that it didn't know what the word "renegade" means, the UFP wasn't going to be drawn into a war over this.

It's ridiculous to claim they murdered in the name of the Federation, given the Federation never would have sanctioned their actions. Hell, I doubt Equinox itself would have claimed they were acting in the Federation's name. I don't think they ever claimed to be out for anyone other than themselves. The fact that Starfleet indeed would have sent a task force after them only strengthens this argument.

As I'm not sure where you hail from, it's hard to rebut the argument that "our" own government has provisions for such force. US? UK? Libya? Israel? Iran? Speaking as a resident of the US I can say that while we perhaps have allowances for such things, whether we -should- have them is a matter of some debate, especially given their propensity for abuse (no pun intended).

One rogue ship? Sorry, there's nothing extraordinary about that.
 
Janeway only had jurisdiction to be a police officer while on board Voyager or in side federation space. Ironically she also had the jurisdiction to be a police officer on board Equinox. most of the story took place in open space but if ransom had crossed some boarder into even a minor power Janeway would have been utterly stymied by the limits of her authority to do much anything with out local law enforecement asking her what she is doing speeding about shooting up the place.

If you head out into international waters, killing is no longer murder in a criminal sense and in any case it's also a question of which system of justice is not being used depending on which countries who have laws are nearest by to taunt.

Noah might have lived but it can be argued that Janeway facilitated the execution/murder of many other of the Equinox crew who were eaten as the result of her sicking a pack of wild space beasties on Equinox.

Her deal with the Space beasties was certainly conspiracy to murder, which since it happened on Voyager, the ship overiously carries with it the rights of an embassy... WAS a criminal act.

It doesn't matter who was the bigger criminal kent, it just matters that both Janeway and Ransom were criminals but only one Captain was forced to accept the consequences of their actions.
 
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