1/3 through the last book. Aventine is working on phase 2. Wow. Why wouldn't the Borg personal shields work against these weapons? Is it the field? If that is the case, how do the nano probes still work?
Destiny Trilogy.
- Thread starter ConRefit79
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i assume you mean the TR-116s? they fire bullets. the Borg apparently can't adapt to bullets, as seen in First Contact.
As great as Destiny was, lets also give thanks to the guy who did the cover art and fixed Ezri's hair.
Thank you!
Thank you!
No, they could certainly adapt. But the way the Borg have always been portrayed is that a new kind of attack will work on them initially, but then later they'll adapt and it won't work anymore. The idea was that an attack by bullets was a novelty to the Borg and so they were taken by surprise. It wouldn't have worked on an ongoing basis any more than any other form of attack.
Though I've always found it hard to believe that the Borg are vulnerable to any attack that the Federation hasn't tried on them before. Surely after two millennia of assimilating races all over the galaxy, they should've encountered every conceivable form of attack and should be pre-adapted to tactics that are only new from Starfleet's perspective. But then, if that were so, then the heroes would never have had a chance.
I guess one has to assume that if the Borg haven't encountered a particular attack for a while, they shelve the defensive adaptation as a needless inefficiency, and then when they encounter that attack again, they track it down in their files and "reinstall" the defensive adaptation. Which explains a lot, because the Borg aren't supposed to be capable of creativity, so their ability to swiftly adapt to anything new seems inconsistent. If they just draw on old solutions they have in their files, assimilated from races they've absorbed, that explains the quick adaptation. But first they have to be aware of the threat, so a "new" attack (one that hasn't been used for a while) will always take out the first few drones before they have time to install the upgrade.
^ The TR-116s were effective in that particular battle because the Starfleet teams coupled them with new Hirogen energy dampeners that suppressed the Borg's nanoprobes, personal shields, internal defenses, etc.
Yeah, I should've clarified that I was referring to the scene in First Contact where holographic tommyguns were effective against the Borg. (Though that still doesn't explain why any holodeck programmer would be insanely irresponsible enough to design the program to simulate actual bullets even if the safeties were off. Since they travel too fast to see, there's no sense in including them in the simulation at all.)
Oh come on, if you've seen TNG, you should know creating holoprograms that could easily kill people (in real life) in the right circumstances must be like a pastime or something.
But in seriousness, I have no idea either. Although I do have a question about the TR-116s. It was a cool reference, but didn't someone say in Field of Fire that they were abandoned in favor of regenerative phasers (not really sure how those work, anyway)?
"Don't worry, Professor, we didn't actually put holographic bullets in the program"
"Oh, good, because the moment some kid gets hurt I'm being sued for a Nagus' ransom and-"
"The program replicates actual bullets instead".
^Exactly. The idea that a recreational program would replicate actual physical bullets is even more insane than the idea that it would simulate forcefield bullets that could actually kill people. It's a basic principle of the design of entertainment systems that you try to leave out anything that could kill someone.
Yeah, I did not want to be too specific, cause the thread does not warn people about spoilers. If it was the Dampening field, then I suspect the nanoprobes would be compromised. Would they still be so Borg like? I guess these were all grown Borg, not assimilated.
Don't forget the TNG:The Big Goodbye, where Whalen gets shot by Leech.
Don't forget the TNG:The Big Goodbye, where Whalen gets shot by Leech.
^Yes, of course. I'm not denying that it happened. My point is that it's a silly plot contrivance to put characters in danger. Many, many things in the Trek universe are lacking in the basic safety features any rational designer would put in -- like the shuttlecraft without seatbelts and airlocks, the warp cores that breach if you look at them funny, the engineering teams that study mysterious alien devices three feet away from the warp core, etc. Holodecks that are capable of creating lethal weapons under any circumstances are one of the stupider contrivances.
The problem is that while the priority of real-world engineers and designers is to minimize the risk of catastrophe, the priority of fiction writers is to maximize it. So plausible safety engineering tends to go out the window. Trek is hardly alone in this. Cars and other powered vehicles in most movies and TV seem to be designed to explode at the first hint of damage. Fictional computers are designed to explode in response to a data overload or logical paradox. And so on. (Although this is somewhat compensated for by the fact that fictional explosions are far less dangerous than the real kind; a real explosion can kill anyone near it with shrapnel or overpressure shock, but fictional explosions are essentially harmless to anyone not directly engulfed by their fireballs, even if they're flung a great distance through the air.)
The problem is that while the priority of real-world engineers and designers is to minimize the risk of catastrophe, the priority of fiction writers is to maximize it. So plausible safety engineering tends to go out the window. Trek is hardly alone in this. Cars and other powered vehicles in most movies and TV seem to be designed to explode at the first hint of damage. Fictional computers are designed to explode in response to a data overload or logical paradox. And so on. (Although this is somewhat compensated for by the fact that fictional explosions are far less dangerous than the real kind; a real explosion can kill anyone near it with shrapnel or overpressure shock, but fictional explosions are essentially harmless to anyone not directly engulfed by their fireballs, even if they're flung a great distance through the air.)
the TR-116 replicator pattern's stored in the computer
There are so many things in Trek that - were it "real" - one would have to assume things just wouldn't go quite the same way as was depicted onscreen. The holodeck that can kill is just yet another thing. 
As far as the Borg adapting to bullets... I always assumed they can't. Bullets are matter, not energy.
If the Borg shields really are "personal force fields", i.e. with the term "force field" or "shield" meaning the same as it does throughout Trekdom (a general energy shield designed to protect the object within from damage), why do they need to "adapt" to anything? Why wouldn't the shields just be UP, from the get-go?
My take was that the whole adapting thing referred to them adapting to the specific properties of energy based attacks, once they have been exposed to them a minimum number of times. Given how widespread the use of energy based weaponry as the primary attack type seems to be throughout the known galaxy, this would be quite an advantage. Nearly everyone the Borg come across that's actually advanced enough for them to be WORTH assimilating would be used to using energy weapons against other foes, which the Borg would then adapt to. This holds with the idea that changing frequencies (as Shelby had Data do with the shipboard phasers in BoBW, for example) keeps them from adapting as quickly.
But a bullet (or a blade, or a neck-snap) doesn't have a "frequency", and thus cannot be "adapted" to.
As far as the Borg adapting to bullets... I always assumed they can't. Bullets are matter, not energy.
If the Borg shields really are "personal force fields", i.e. with the term "force field" or "shield" meaning the same as it does throughout Trekdom (a general energy shield designed to protect the object within from damage), why do they need to "adapt" to anything? Why wouldn't the shields just be UP, from the get-go?
My take was that the whole adapting thing referred to them adapting to the specific properties of energy based attacks, once they have been exposed to them a minimum number of times. Given how widespread the use of energy based weaponry as the primary attack type seems to be throughout the known galaxy, this would be quite an advantage. Nearly everyone the Borg come across that's actually advanced enough for them to be WORTH assimilating would be used to using energy weapons against other foes, which the Borg would then adapt to. This holds with the idea that changing frequencies (as Shelby had Data do with the shipboard phasers in BoBW, for example) keeps them from adapting as quickly.
But a bullet (or a blade, or a neck-snap) doesn't have a "frequency", and thus cannot be "adapted" to.
Uh...yes it is. That has nothing to do with what I asked, though.
Force Fields typically stop matter and energy weapons. For example, the force field in the brig or used to seal hull breaches. I'm guessing adapting to shield against a specific range of frequencies of an energy weapon allows the shield to more efficiently protect against it, so they are not weakened quickly. The other idea is, shields are not solid barriers, so they have a frequency and if you can find that frequency, the weapon can bypass the shield all together(Generations).
But these examples were ship shields and force fields. Maybe personal shields have such limited sources of power, they have to block specific range or weapons.
But these examples were ship shields and force fields. Maybe personal shields have such limited sources of power, they have to block specific range or weapons.
If they couldn't adapt to bullets, then they could be defeated by any pre-warp society with gunpowder, and any more advanced society with any sense would quickly learn to stop wasting time with energy weapons and switch to something more basic. There's no way the Borg could've become such a pervasive threat if they had such a huge Achilles heel as being incapable of defending against something as simple as projectile weapons.
The same reason a starship doesn't have its defensive shields up all the time. Shields drain power. And the Borg don't consider individual drones important enough to protect, so they'd have no incentive to engage in pre-emptive shielding. They'd see it as a needless power drain. They'd just start sending drones in, and if a few of them fall, the others respond as needed to the specific threat they're facing.
Yeah, at first. But any civilization that fought the Borg long enough to discover such a huge Achilles heel as a complete and utter inability to defend against bullets (what, they never assimilated Kevlar?) would naturally respond by embracing the use of projectile weapons again, and the Borg would've been exterminated long, long ago. It just makes no sense.
And there's no need for it. We have always, always been shown that the Borg are completely vulnerable to the first few uses of any new attack or unconventional tactic, because they don't anticipate, only react. This has been fundamental to the depiction of the Borg since day one. I don't see any reason to doubt that their vulnerability to bullets was another example of the exact same thing that has always been true of the Borg.
In FC, we only saw a single attack with holo-bullets prove effective against the Borg. There was no attempt to repeat it. We have no evidence to support the conclusion that the Borg would've been incapable of adapting had it been tried again. One cannot draw a blanket conclusion from a single data point.
We have the means to adapt to bullets and blades. It's called body armor. It makes no sense to assume the Borg would be completely incapable of developing a technology that we already have.
I... guess. The whole thing seems a little fishy to me, personally, simply because (in my opinion) the way the shows depicted the energy shields that snapped up after several shots seemed like "they have adapted to this frequency." They never SAID it directly, I'll grant, but it did seem that way to me.
I see what you are saying about the Borg being vulnerable to anyone with a gun if they cannot adapt to such attacks, but I think you're overstating it a bit.
All of this said, you make a good case, and this may be holdover from my interpretation of the Borg as depicted on TNG: this may just be me, but I felt that the idea that they were adapting to energy frequencies was all BUT stated outright. Overall, given the history of the Borg and those they have attacked/assimilated, that may not make sense. But it's still the feeling I got from the show at the time.
I see what you are saying about the Borg being vulnerable to anyone with a gun if they cannot adapt to such attacks, but I think you're overstating it a bit.
If they lacked the capability to adapt a personal forcefield to stop bullets - despite the presence of the ability to adapt a personal forcefield to stop energy weapons - that wouldn't give them any special weakness that other powers don't have. What would happen to a Klingon or Starfleet officer or Cardassian (assuming they weren't wearing any specialized protection, just standing there in their normal uniform) if you shot them with a modern day handgun? Without the ability to adapt to bullets and render them harmless, the Borg would simply be on a level playing field with other races who can't adapt to anything and make it harmless. I see your overall point, but I don't think it would necessarily lead to the Borg being exterminated (especially if they actually USE their ability to fire BACK at their foes, something they haven't done consistently through various Borg stories).
I have to concede here. The Borg have been shown to not give a flying crap about the fate of individual drones on many occasions.
and
Two different things. I didn't suggest that the Borg couldn't have assimilated Kevlar, or that they possessed "a complete and utter inability" to defend against bullets. I'm ONLY talking about the "on the fly" adapting that the Borg do (which is different than saying "humans have adapted to blade or bullet attacks by inventing body armor)". I'm suggesting that their specialized energy fields - something that constitutes an advantage they have over other races - can adapt to energy but not matter. Thus, they would be forced to rely on some other, more conventional means of defense if suddenly everyone started coming at them with bullets. Perhaps outfitting drones with actual PHYSICAL shielding would be an option, which would put them on the exact same level as humans when it comes to defending against bullets and similar attacks ("body armor"), not below that level.
All of this said, you make a good case, and this may be holdover from my interpretation of the Borg as depicted on TNG: this may just be me, but I felt that the idea that they were adapting to energy frequencies was all BUT stated outright. Overall, given the history of the Borg and those they have attacked/assimilated, that may not make sense. But it's still the feeling I got from the show at the time.
Well, yes, that's clearly something they're capable of, but how does it follow that it's the only defense they're capable of? I always had the impression that it was just a part of their defensive abilities, not the end-all and be-all. The only reason it was focused on is because it's specifically a defense against phasers and that's what Starfleet uses. So its prevalence in the stories we see is more a result of Starfleet's preferences than the Borg's limitations.
All else being equal, no. But the Borg are such a relentless threat, don't you think their enemies would go after them rather more aggressively in response? At least, if not exterminated, they would be reduced to a minor threat if they had such a glaring limitation in their defensive abilities.
And Borg don't shoot back for the same reason they don't pre-emptively protect themselves -- because they have no interest in the welfare of individuals. They don't care if their drones get gunned down, because they're just cells in the body of the Collective and there are plenty more where they came from. And they don't care about targeting individual enemies, just about absorbing the technological and biological resources of the species as a whole.
Okay, but I still think my point stands -- if that were a problem they had, then I think a lot more of their enemies would learn to come at them with projectile weapons. And it therefore follows that the Borg would in turn equip their drones by default with the ability to adapt quickly to projectile-weapon attacks. So I just don't find it likely that the drones would have the vulnerability you suggest.
But then, ST is full of unrealistic portrayals of combat vulnerabilities. For instance, I find it profoundly unlikely that a starfaring civilization like the Klingons would be incapable of developing body armor that can protect against mere bladed metal weapons. It seems to be a universal trait of futuristic body armor that it has no actual use beyond looking intimidating. For instance, Star Wars Imperial Stormtrooper armor is not only zero defense against blasters, but is so flimsy that it can't even block a tiny arrow fired by tiny Ewok arms -- something that a good silk shirt should be capable of stopping.
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