Destiny trilogy - speculations

[Thrawn]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Well, not to confuse the issue with the obvious, but if you're looking for multi-year-long military campaigns, it might make sense that the books with "Star Wars" on the cover would be more your thing than "Star Trek". Star Trek has, with the exception of the last two seasons of DS9, never really been about military action, and even those you say disappointed you.

There's an enormous wealth of thematic and creative motifs in Star Trek to draw from, and a huge series of books about one prolonged military engagement would thus be not what a huge number of fans wanted.

Even the New Jedi Order, which I personally rather adored, was hated by a lot of the fans of Star Wars.

 

[Dayton3]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Well, not to confuse the issue with the obvious, but if you're looking for multi-year-long military campaigns, it might make sense that the books with "Star Wars" on the cover would be more your thing than "Star Trek". Star Trek has, with the exception of the last two seasons of DS9, never really been about military action, and even those you say disappointed you.

There's an enormous wealth of thematic and creative motifs in Star Trek to draw from, and a huge series of books about one prolonged military engagement would thus be not what a huge number of fans wanted.

You have no evidence of that.

And you are even admitting that a multi-year-long military campaign would be something new and daring for the Star Trek franchise (the Dominion War was largely a hit and miss affair with entire chunks of the DS9 seasons having nothing to do with the war).

 

[JeremyW]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Why couldn't they have done something like Star Wars did with that powerful race invading the galaxy that was immune to the powers of the force?

It took years in both real and book time for the war to be won. And the results of that war still shake the Star Wars universe to this day.

First and foremost, The New Jedi Order was not just about the Yuuzhan Vong..it was about the characters that the audience had grown to love and to know, and then the writers shook it all up. If the story was just about a prolonged military campaign, then that would have absolutely sucked... even when we talk about World War II, we do not just talk about the events, we talk about the people. It is the people we care about, and what makes a story good.

As for your desire to have a WWII inspired Borg story, even your premise is not entirely accurate. The US officially did not enter the war until 1941, and only after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour, granted there was some involvement behind the scenes before then. And as far as I recall, they didn't have that many setbacks when the U.S war machine got going. If you think about it,(to even support your idea) this has already happened in setting up Destiny the epilogue of Greater Than The Sum. Did you read that book????? If not, then I am not going to spoil it here. Do not expect people to do all your work for you. That's crap.

Kristen put it best... I do not think we give these writers the credit they deserve, whether a book is on our preferred list or not. I think that we spend too much time nitpicking, complaining and downright bashing work that we didn't create, and wished we had. Sounds a lot like jealousy to me. Why not give something a chance first? And if not that, then for goodness sakes, at least be respectful to the people who took so much time out of their own lives to write for us. Remember that. It is supply and demand...we want the stories, so the writers write them. Be thankful.

Personally, I cannot wait for Destiny. I thought I would have had to wait 2 years to read these stories...I am thankful I get to read them in the next few months. Dave my hat off to you 'cause I know the quality you put into your work. (Re-read Warpath again LOL) I'm excited to see where you take these people, and very keen on how it all works out in the end.

 

[Thrawn]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

You have no evidence of that.

And you are even admitting that a multi-year-long military campaign would be something new and daring for the Star Trek franchise (the Dominion War was largely a hit and miss affair with entire chunks of the DS9 seasons having nothing to do with the war).

Two things. One, just because something is new and daring doesn't mean it should be done. It would be new and daring for Star Trek to have a plague that killed off every alien in the universe except humans, and then spend the rest of the series just talking about humans exploring the archaeological remains of millions of cultures, but it would also be a very poor use of the resources of the Star Trek universe.

Two, if written well, any story can be fascinating. I bet if that story about the plague was written by David Mack, it'd still be one hell of a compelling narrative. But that doesn't mean it should be written either; it's not a matter of whether or not something makes a good story, because theoretically anything can be a good story. With tie-in fiction, it's rather a matter of what makes the best story given what's available.

And that's what I mean about your idea of the war - 10 years' worth of books about the Borg would be a very poor use of the Star Trek universe's resources. There are so many other potential stories to explore that confining everything to a military frame for a series longer than most of the TV shows were on the air would be a terrible idea, regardless of how good the books were.

 

[Dayton3]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

^I understand your point.

But even if there was a 10 year book series about the war with the Borg, there could be other Star Trek books with no involvement in that.

The New Frontier series for example could go on exploring Thallonian space or whereever.

The original series novels could continue onward.

Likewise with Vanguard and other Trek book series.

 

[William Leisner]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

I'm simply tired in Star Trek of "magic bullet, unstoppable hero" solutions.

That is what we've seen for the most part for the last 40 years.

One reason I hated the way the Dominion War was handled.

I prefer a World War II type of solution for what are clearly military problems. The Federation (United States) starts off the wars poorly and suffers major defeats, as time goes on, the Federation (United States) mobilizes and eventually builds big enough of a force to defeat anyone.

Uh... and how is that different from how the Dominion War was handled on DS9? You had several years between the destruction of the New Bajor Colony and the Odyssey and the formal start of the war when the Federation had almost no response to the Dominion threat, and were forced into a war with the Klingons orchestrated by the Founders that only served to weaken both powers. Then after the war proper did start, the Federation was driven out of the Bajor sector, and for two years fought a war of atrition that was expected to go on for decades. But in the end, the Feds were able to bring the Roms to their side, to counteract the Breen's energy-dampening weapon, and assemble a big enough force to invade Cardassia and force the Dominion to admit their defeat. (Now, the way Odo stopped the Founders' genocide of the Cardassian race was perhaps a bit of a magic bullet, but the war was in essence over by then.)

That aside... what I think is truly brilliant about Trek Lit is the fact that, although the Dom War ended with WYLB, its effects have continued to echo throughout the DS9-R series, the SCE/CoE series, and now the TNG-Post-NEM series.

Well, not to confuse the issue with the obvious, but if you're looking for multi-year-long military campaigns, it might make sense that the books with "Star Wars" on the cover would be more your thing than "Star Trek".

QFT.

 

[Rabid Trekkie]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Why couldn't they have done something like Star Wars did with that powerful race invading the galaxy that was immune to the powers of the force?

It took years in both real and book time for the war to be won. And the results of that war still shake the Star Wars universe to this day.

Have you read Greater Than the Sum yet? Great book and the epilogue goes straight into Destiny. Hopefully not giving too much away when I say that the Borg have a new means of travel that is faster than anything the Federation has and as of right now, unknown.

And while a WW2 type story may be interesting (though I think the Dominion War was close enough) I doubt it could work with the Borg. The problem with them of course is the same problem with a zombie infestation, near instant reinforcements for them whereas the Federation has a finite supply. Plus the Borg aren't just coming in a single cube for the umpteenth time. This is the Borg endgame, attacking enforce to wipe out the Federation.
Not to mention the Borg technological advantage. Beyond just the new unknown propulsion, they adapt to new tactics and new technology. The greatest weapon in the Federation arsenal has just been casually taken by the Borg and is probably being adapted to in the time between GTTS and Destiny. At the start of WW2, the US was maybe two or three years behind German innovations. The Borg use nanotechnology beyond anything the Federation has, actually created a stable way to use transwarp technology breaking the warp ten barrier that the Federation can only get decimal points toward. And any new pieces of tech that Star Fleet can send at them will be adapted to or assimilated.

That's why it has to be a quick (relatively speaking, we still don't know how much time the trilogy will cover) victory, the Borg has to be stopped before they adapt enough to finally beat the Federation out of hand. The Federation has to have a magic bullet to use against the Borg. A WW2 analogy can't really work with the Borg because the capabilities are too different.

 

[Thrawn]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

But even if there was a 10 year book series about the war with the Borg, there could be other Star Trek books with no involvement in that.

I would think that, realistically, any war on the scale you're talking would have to involve every series that has "now" in the 2380s, which would be more than half of the publishing schedule, give or take.

And people are annoyed that three TNG relaunch books so far have dealt with the Borg. Imagine 6 a year!

I think my point still stands.

 

[Dayton3]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Why couldn't they have done something like Star Wars did with that powerful race invading the galaxy that was immune to the powers of the force?

It took years in both real and book time for the war to be won. And the results of that war still shake the Star Wars universe to this day.

Have you read Greater Than the Sum yet? Great book and the epilogue goes straight into Destiny. Hopefully not giving too much away when I say that the Borg have a new means of travel that is faster than anything the Federation has and as of right now, unknown.

And while a WW2 type story may be interesting (though I think the Dominion War was close enough) I doubt it could work with the Borg. The problem with them of course is the same problem with a zombie infestation, near instant reinforcements for them whereas the Federation has a finite supply. Plus the Borg aren't just coming in a single cube for the umpteenth time. This is the Borg endgame, attacking enforce to wipe out the Federation.
Not to mention the Borg technological advantage. Beyond just the new unknown propulsion, they adapt to new tactics and new technology. The greatest weapon in the Federation arsenal has just been casually taken by the Borg and is probably being adapted to in the time between GTTS and Destiny. At the start of WW2, the US was maybe two or three years behind German innovations. The Borg use nanotechnology beyond anything the Federation has, actually created a stable way to use transwarp technology breaking the warp ten barrier that the Federation can only get decimal points toward. And any new pieces of tech that Star Fleet can send at them will be adapted to or assimilated.

That's why it has to be a quick (relatively speaking, we still don't know how much time the trilogy will cover) victory, the Borg has to be stopped before they adapt enough to finally beat the Federation out of hand. The Federation has to have a magic bullet to use against the Borg. A WW2 analogy can't really work with the Borg because the capabilities are too different.

You aren't showing much imagination.

Federation technology could advance faster than that of the Borg.

And there is no evidence that Borg resources are unlimited.

Superior leadership and tactics are a great equalizer against superior tecnnology.

 

[Thrawn]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

You aren't showing much imagination.

Federation technology could advance faster than that of the Borg.

And there is no evidence that Borg resources are unlimited.

Superior leadership and tactics are a great equalizer against superior tecnnology.

The same argument could be applied regardless of whether the engagement lasts 10 years or a few months (as I'd expect Destiny to do). Just sayin'.

 

[Dayton3]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

So it all boils down to is that I'm never going to read or see the Borg story that I've dreamed of seeing for several years.

Unless I write it myself and I doubt I have enough talent for that.

Oh well, un unrealized dream is better than having no dream at all...

 

[Thrawn]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

So it all boils down to is that I'm never going to read or see the Borg story that I've dreamed of seeing for several years.

Unless I write it myself and I doubt I have enough talent for that.

Oh well, un unrealized dream is better than having no dream at all...

Yes.

But on the other hand, think of it this way - you're getting Destiny, a trilogy (one of only two single-author trilogies that the current editorial staff has ever commissioned, and the other was three standalones) written by the best Star Trek author at epic action stories, which is bigger and badasser than any story about the Borg has been so far. So rather than condemn it as not being your personal fantasy, think of it this way - this is the closest Star Trek has come so far, and maybe will come ever, to fulfilling that fantasy that you have. And enjoy it for that, before you go back to the more standalone stories.

Why be so negative? It's not like the authors are out to personally quash your dreams. Your dreams in this case simply make no sense from an editorial standpoint. Period.

 

[JeremyW]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

So it all boils down to is that I'm never going to read or see the Borg story that I've dreamed of seeing for several years.

Unless I write it myself and I doubt I have enough talent for that.

Oh well, un unrealized dream is better than having no dream at all...

Okay, I call bullcrap on most of this.....and here's why I call bullcrap.

1) It does not just boil down to you not getting what you want.
2) You have your own doubts as to writing this story you want to see? Where does the doubt lie? In the story, or your ability to create it?
3) With that last statement, you will find little to no sympathy from the writers here.

Now I'm going to expound on this...and so help me my freakin' Internet connection better hold.

Your second and third statements really bother me. Here's why. I myself am wanting to write a really good story. I've been working on a few ideas now for at least the past two years, and some of them have been more successful than others. Nevertheless, I am not giving up on them. Do I have the writing prowess as a David R. George III, a KRAD or a David Mack? Nope, sure don't. Why not? Plain and simple: I'm a rookie at this. Nevertheless, I know how to tell a story, and that drives me to keep working on it. You write about what you know. Well, over the past two years, I know a lot about faith based living, so the story I want to tell centers around it. And, I know that being a first time submitter to a media tie-in franchise like Trek is hard. I realize that I live in Canada and have to work that much harder to get an outline down, to flesh out a narrative that fits ALL of the submission guidelines, and to get an agent while still working a full time job, paying bills, looking to get married, going back to school etc. Why would I waste my time, knowing the odds are so against me? Because I want to, and because I LOVE doing it. I know one of my gifts is the ability to construct narratives from beginning, middle and end. So, why not use that which has been given to me for some purpose or another?

Now, I guess the question comes down to it: why do you doubt yourself? Is it because you do not have the experience? (Only way to do that is to write and write and write again) Is it because in your heart, you know the story to not be as good as you think it is? Or is it that you know that what is being produced you just don't like, so instead of just saying that, you've trumped up some excuse as to why you don't like it....only you can answer that question, and I'm not assuming anything. These are questions you can ask yourself.

As for Destiny itself, we don't know what's going to happen. None of us do except for those that have read it. Why not see what happens, and go from there? These people are telling us we're going to like it (I like Kristen's colourful expression of it, even if they aren't the words I'd use), so let's trust those who know, shall we? The quality of the writing has increased over the years, and the narratives have only gotten better as time goes on. We're blessed to have this in our lives, so let's give it a chance. For the record, I've pre-purchased the trilogy because I cannot wait to read it...I can't wait for the excerpt to show up on S&S.

 

[JAG]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

As for Destiny itself, we don't know what's going to happen. None of us do except for those that have read it. Why not see what happens, and go from there? These people are telling us we're going to like it (I like Kristen's colourful expression of it, even if they aren't the words I'd use), so let's trust those who know, shall we? The quality of the writing has increased over the years, and the narratives have only gotten better as time goes on. We're blessed to have this in our lives, so let's give it a chance. For the record, I've pre-purchased the trilogy because I cannot wait to read it...I can't wait for the excerpt to show up on S&S.

See, this is the problem. You are thinking logically. It amazes me that people kept responding to Dayton3.

 

[captcalhoun]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

if Destiny isn't the best Trek books ever written, i'm sueing Mack, Pocket, CBS, Paramount and boycotting the next movie!



so; no pressure.

 

[Dayton3]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Now, I guess the question comes down to it: why do you doubt yourself? Is it because you do not have the experience? (Only way to do that is to write and write and write again) Is it because in your heart, you know the story to not be as good as you think it is?

I think my concept is good.

I do not think I have the talent to actually implement it.

I can't even explain it in discussions on line.

When I've tried, everyone interprets it as "Dayton wants more war" or something like that.

 

[Thrawn]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

I think my concept is good.

I do not think I have the talent to actually implement it.

I can't even explain it in discussions on line.

When I've tried, everyone interprets it as "Dayton wants more war" or something like that.

I think I understand exactly what you're going for, especially as someone that really appreciated the slow evolution of tactics and such in New Jedi Order.

I just think that there's an important difference; Star Wars is one set of main characters, and is basically about giant wars between good and evil. Star Trek has at this point about a dozen sets of main characters (TOS, Excelsior, Challenger, Vanguard, Stargazer, TNG, DS9, VOY, NF, Gorkon/KE, Bacco's administration, Titan, not to mention potential mirror & myriad counterparts of all of them) and a whole ton of other themes.

Your Borg story has the potential to be absolutely incredible, you'd just have to sacrifice a lot of other opportunities to tell it, something that wasn't nearly as true with Star Wars. It's a good idea creatively, just a bad one practically.

 

[Dayton3]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Perhaps my Borg story would be better in a later Trek era, somewhat removed from the most recent era with a new cast.

 

[Thrawn]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Perhaps my Borg story would be better in a later Trek era, somewhat removed from the most recent era with a new cast.

Maybe, but that's irrelevant. If you keep holding up every book that comes out against this mythic, impossible idea you have (and can't write yourself), then you're going to be disappointed. And while you have every right to be, it's pretty annoying to the rest of us when you blame it on the writers, even though you've basically acknowledged it wouldn't make any sense for them to publish it in the first place.

 

[Deano2099]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

So it all boils down to is that I'm never going to read or see the Borg story that I've dreamed of seeing for several years.

Now you've expanded on it does sound sort of cool actually. I'd read it. But Destiny isn't that story, no. I've got some awesome ideas I'd like David Mack to write too but I'm pretty sure he's more interested in writing his own. So I can understand you're disappointed this isn't the Borg story you've been waiting for. But lets face it, the chances of it being so were fairly small to start with, no?

And David Mack's track record is rather good.

Suppose I you went to the greatest ice-cream store in the world. But there's a catch. They have 10 different flavours, they're all based off the same recipe but you can't pick one. You get a random flavour. Now maybe I really like strawberry ice-cream. But these guys make the best ice-cream in the world and I've never got to try their strawberry. So I order me some ice-cream, and I get chocolate.
Now, I'm disappointed, I wanted strawberry. I had chocolate the other month too. I'm slightly upset. But does that make the chocolate ice-cream bad? Hell no. It's still the best ice-cream in the world.

Do you see?