Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
^ You gotta learn to stop talkin' that crazy sense talk, man.
^ You gotta learn to stop talkin' that crazy sense talk, man.
Destiny trilogy - speculations
- Thread starter JoeZhang
- Start date
Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
Some of the stories you mentioned aren't really Borg stories. Family for one thing is a Picard story first and foremost, and probably one of the best ones there was. Descent was more about Data and Lore than the Borg, and besides, the Borg that were there weren't really like the rest of the Borg in a few key areas. Blood Fever does nothing more than show a Borg corpse and a couple scared people, the majority of the show was spent with a crazy Vulcan. I don't remember "A Ribbon for Rosie" all that well but I don't remember much of a Borg story there. I don't think you can count ever episode with Seven as a Borg episode, because she is no longer a Borg. At most she is trying to integrate with a new society in a similar way to Data or Odo, perhaps even Spock from the other series. And I've searched through Memory Beta and I can't find anything about a Program 359, maybe they just don't have it listed but I was able to find just about everything else on your list.
Just a rough list of Borg-centric stories
NG# 42 Q WHO ( Borg. Q, Sonya Gomez
NG# 74-75 THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS (Shelby, Borg Wolf 359
GN VOY 10 Ghosts (the Borg Wolf 359
DS9 GN 6 Program 359 [Sisko holoprogram battling Wolf 359
SNW1(NG) Civil Disobedience [Q borg
NG (N) Vendetta
NG# 76 FAMILY
NG# 123 I BORG (Hugh
SNW2(VOY) Seventh Heaven ( Hugh Seven
NG# 152-153,NG (N) DESCENT (Sequel to BROTHERS and I BORG.
NG DC GN 71-75 War and Madness (Enab, former associate of Hugh
NG DC GN 47-50 The Worst of Both Worlds [borg
SNW VI Spec The Beginning [borg queen
M, N(NG), MS(NG) STAR TREK: FIRST CONTACT
SNW VII NG Full Circle [Hawk
SNW3(NG) A Private Victory (Hawk
ENT# 49 REGENERATION ( Borg
NF (N) No Limits Excalibur: Making a Difference [Korsmo First Contact
Star Trek: The Manga: Shinsei Shinsei Side Effects [birth of borg queen
NG DC GN 71-75 War and Madness ( Hugh of Borg.
N/N(NG)/DS9 (N) The Return ( Borg, Salatrel
Game Borg
VOY# 58 BLOOD FEVER (Vorik. the Borg
VOY# 59 UNITY
VOY# 68-69 SCORPION (7 of 9, species 8472
SNW2(VOY) A Ribbon for Rosie (7 of 9)
VOY# 74 THE RAVEN
VOY (N) Seven of Nine (the Skedans
SNW 9 VOY Maturation [annika becoming seven borg
VOY# 109-110 DARK FRONTIER
SNW4(VOY) Iridium-7 Tetrahydroxate Crystals Are a Girl's Best Friend ( Q Vash, the Borg Queen
VOY# 145-146 UNIMATRIX ZERO ( Borg Queen
VOY# 149 IMPERFECTION ( Borg children. )
VOY# 170-171, VOY (N) ENDGAME
every VOY ep with Seven
NG (N) Before Dishonor
(Star Trek: Corps of Engineers) The Light [borg
SNW 10 VOY The Day the Borg Came [borg
SNW VII Spec Forgotten Light [borg
SNW 8 Star Trek: Voyager This Drone [Seven
enough for me!
my vote for long thought dead Captain - Pike !
Some of the stories you mentioned aren't really Borg stories. Family for one thing is a Picard story first and foremost, and probably one of the best ones there was. Descent was more about Data and Lore than the Borg, and besides, the Borg that were there weren't really like the rest of the Borg in a few key areas. Blood Fever does nothing more than show a Borg corpse and a couple scared people, the majority of the show was spent with a crazy Vulcan. I don't remember "A Ribbon for Rosie" all that well but I don't remember much of a Borg story there. I don't think you can count ever episode with Seven as a Borg episode, because she is no longer a Borg. At most she is trying to integrate with a new society in a similar way to Data or Odo, perhaps even Spock from the other series. And I've searched through Memory Beta and I can't find anything about a Program 359, maybe they just don't have it listed but I was able to find just about everything else on your list.
Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
^^But I think that's just the point. What that list shows is that there's no uniformity to stories involving the Borg in one way or another -- that you can't make any assumptions about what a story will be like just because the Borg are involved in it in some way.
^^But I think that's just the point. What that list shows is that there's no uniformity to stories involving the Borg in one way or another -- that you can't make any assumptions about what a story will be like just because the Borg are involved in it in some way.
Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
True, even from the episodes the Borg stories were different. Best of Both Worlds 1 and 2 is much different from Scorpion 1 and 2. Just from what I can remember off the top of my head we've had science gone wrong (Side Effects), zombie attacks (First Contact), seemingly unstoppable menace (Best of Both Worlds), we should learn our limits (Q Who?) and person leaving their societal group (I, Borg and many of the 7 of 9 eps) stories so its not like they are a one trick pony. Even if one tv series tried to portray them as such.
True, even from the episodes the Borg stories were different. Best of Both Worlds 1 and 2 is much different from Scorpion 1 and 2. Just from what I can remember off the top of my head we've had science gone wrong (Side Effects), zombie attacks (First Contact), seemingly unstoppable menace (Best of Both Worlds), we should learn our limits (Q Who?) and person leaving their societal group (I, Borg and many of the 7 of 9 eps) stories so its not like they are a one trick pony. Even if one tv series tried to portray them as such.
Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
Really? I didn't know that, actually. That's why it took me three viewings to notice. As I said.
A pity, too, because I was originally going to use an example with The Chronicles of Narnia's parallels to Christianity, but dismissed it for precisely that reason.
You have, of course, information to which we do not have access. (I didn't realize you'd actually read the books... lucky you.) If you try to look at this from my perspective--a fan who won't read the books until autumn, and is basing everything off of "just a troika of 125-word cover blurbs"--I'm sure you'll see that I am not "cherrypicking" anything. From the information that is available to me, the little bits of story structure I can see reveals an A-plot nearly identical to that of AII--not exactly identical, just as no work is exactly identical to any other, but similar enough in enough respects to reveal a parallel. To claim that any parallel that fails to take into account 100% of available facts is "invalid reasoning" is simply disingenous. Exactly what sort of further "honest investigation" do you propose I do, short of finding out where Mr. Mack lives and stealing his manuscripts?
Of course, I might do that anyways. I really want to read this trilogy.
Anyhow, I never questioned Mr. Mack's integrity as a writer, and if any such inferrence was drawn by anyone who's read this thread (despite the big "don't take this as a slam" subclause), I hope to disabuse you of the notion right now. I'm more than certain any such similarites were purely coincidental, and that Destiny won't end with a battle between the allied Federation-Borg Fleet and Species 8472. I am well aware of the scanty information that is available to me compared to the final work, and was merely making an observation--one which, as an Armada fan, I found positively fascinating--and not attempting to create a self-justifying universe in which I assemble as many isolated facts as I can as part of a propaganda campaign with the ultimate goal of discrediting David Mack as a plagiarist and seizing his place on the Pocket Books High Council after slaying him in hand-to-hand combat.
Although, come to think of it, that's not all that bad an idea. We all know how much power, honor, and riches come of being a Star Trek writer.
Christopher said:
Really? I didn't know that, actually. That's why it took me three viewings to notice. As I said.
A pity, too, because I was originally going to use an example with The Chronicles of Narnia's parallels to Christianity, but dismissed it for precisely that reason.
You have, of course, information to which we do not have access. (I didn't realize you'd actually read the books... lucky you.) If you try to look at this from my perspective--a fan who won't read the books until autumn, and is basing everything off of "just a troika of 125-word cover blurbs"--I'm sure you'll see that I am not "cherrypicking" anything. From the information that is available to me, the little bits of story structure I can see reveals an A-plot nearly identical to that of AII--not exactly identical, just as no work is exactly identical to any other, but similar enough in enough respects to reveal a parallel. To claim that any parallel that fails to take into account 100% of available facts is "invalid reasoning" is simply disingenous. Exactly what sort of further "honest investigation" do you propose I do, short of finding out where Mr. Mack lives and stealing his manuscripts?
Of course, I might do that anyways. I really want to read this trilogy.
Anyhow, I never questioned Mr. Mack's integrity as a writer, and if any such inferrence was drawn by anyone who's read this thread (despite the big "don't take this as a slam" subclause), I hope to disabuse you of the notion right now. I'm more than certain any such similarites were purely coincidental, and that Destiny won't end with a battle between the allied Federation-Borg Fleet and Species 8472. I am well aware of the scanty information that is available to me compared to the final work, and was merely making an observation--one which, as an Armada fan, I found positively fascinating--and not attempting to create a self-justifying universe in which I assemble as many isolated facts as I can as part of a propaganda campaign with the ultimate goal of discrediting David Mack as a plagiarist and seizing his place on the Pocket Books High Council after slaying him in hand-to-hand combat.
Although, come to think of it, that's not all that bad an idea. We all know how much power, honor, and riches come of being a Star Trek writer.
Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
I see very clearly that you are. You singled out two or three general similarities and ignored far more numerous points in both works that were totally dissimilar. If you don't think that's cherrypicking, then you don't understand what the word means.
And why are you still arguing about this long past the point when it's blindingly clear that your initial assumption was in error? The mature thing to do is to acknowledge that error, let it go, and move on. It's silly to try to justify reasoning that's already been shown to have led to an incorrect conclusion. And it's a waste of time to keep debating it, so I'm done.
I see very clearly that you are. You singled out two or three general similarities and ignored far more numerous points in both works that were totally dissimilar. If you don't think that's cherrypicking, then you don't understand what the word means.
And why are you still arguing about this long past the point when it's blindingly clear that your initial assumption was in error? The mature thing to do is to acknowledge that error, let it go, and move on. It's silly to try to justify reasoning that's already been shown to have led to an incorrect conclusion. And it's a waste of time to keep debating it, so I'm done.
Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
Irritation. I cannot stand illogic. But it's clear that you're only too happy to ignore anything in my posts that contradicts your claims and jump right to the unfounded assertions of motive (I forgot to compliment you on the clever implication that I was either ignorant or "deliberately trying to mislead others." Your talent shines even in insult). Which is all a shame. I think you're a neat guy, and wasn't trying to pick a fight with you.
If you're done, I'm done. Harumph.
Irritation. I cannot stand illogic. But it's clear that you're only too happy to ignore anything in my posts that contradicts your claims and jump right to the unfounded assertions of motive (I forgot to compliment you on the clever implication that I was either ignorant or "deliberately trying to mislead others." Your talent shines even in insult). Which is all a shame. I think you're a neat guy, and wasn't trying to pick a fight with you.
If you're done, I'm done. Harumph.
Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
You know, I'm seeing alot of Borgphobic remarks in this thread...I just wish people could get along. Sure, we may not understand their line of thinking and their "Add every civilization to their collective" philosophy but I'm certain some of our traditions must seem odd to them. Like golf. I think we need to be more accepting of our metallic hive-minded friends; they're people too, kinda.
You know, I'm seeing alot of Borgphobic remarks in this thread...I just wish people could get along. Sure, we may not understand their line of thinking and their "Add every civilization to their collective" philosophy but I'm certain some of our traditions must seem odd to them. Like golf. I think we need to be more accepting of our metallic hive-minded friends; they're people too, kinda.
Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
Maybe Sarina was correct that Dax was destined for better things ........
"The day she realizes that she's more than just the sum of her parts, she's really going to be something."
Maybe Sarina was correct that Dax was destined for better things ........
"The day she realizes that she's more than just the sum of her parts, she's really going to be something."
Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
It's not a matter of being "Borgphobic". It's more like "Having the Borg being used over, and over, and over, and OVER, and OVER"-phobic. Or "The TNG relaunch not coming up with decent villains so they have to drive the Borg into the damn ground with every novel that comes out"-phobic.
And the Borg are not people. That's the whole POINT of the Borg. They are a mindless, faceless, implacable force of nature. That's all they are. That's all they were ever meant to be.
In this case, the Borg were good villains to use on Voyager, because the ship would eventually pass out of Borg space. The Borg are, or at least were supposed to be, unstoppable. (Q Who, anyone?) So in order to win against them, all you can do is run away.
It's not a matter of being "Borgphobic". It's more like "Having the Borg being used over, and over, and over, and OVER, and OVER"-phobic. Or "The TNG relaunch not coming up with decent villains so they have to drive the Borg into the damn ground with every novel that comes out"-phobic.
And the Borg are not people. That's the whole POINT of the Borg. They are a mindless, faceless, implacable force of nature. That's all they are. That's all they were ever meant to be.
In this case, the Borg were good villains to use on Voyager, because the ship would eventually pass out of Borg space. The Borg are, or at least were supposed to be, unstoppable. (Q Who, anyone?) So in order to win against them, all you can do is run away.
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Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
And that idea died with Q Who. Although I'd venture to say that Q Who didn't show us any enemy that is unstoppable (except perhaps Q himself). The Borg in Q Who were just ridiculously difficult to defeat, and having not encountered them before the Enterprise couldn't defeat them there alone. Q caught them (intentionally) completely off guard and thew them into a situation that was unwinnable. The same would have happened if Q flung them into Dominion space, or any foe that is more powerful than they are, alone and unprepared.
And that idea died with Q Who. Although I'd venture to say that Q Who didn't show us any enemy that is unstoppable (except perhaps Q himself). The Borg in Q Who were just ridiculously difficult to defeat, and having not encountered them before the Enterprise couldn't defeat them there alone. Q caught them (intentionally) completely off guard and thew them into a situation that was unwinnable. The same would have happened if Q flung them into Dominion space, or any foe that is more powerful than they are, alone and unprepared.
Nardpuncher
Rear Admiral
Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
Sorry I didn't read all the posts since page one, but one thing I'd say is I'm sick of the Borg too, but if a story is really good, then what I agree to do is bang my head on a wall so I forget everything since Peter David's Vendetta and then try and read it like it was new.
Sorry I didn't read all the posts since page one, but one thing I'd say is I'm sick of the Borg too, but if a story is really good, then what I agree to do is bang my head on a wall so I forget everything since Peter David's Vendetta and then try and read it like it was new.
Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
^ Start bangin', pal.
^ Start bangin', pal.
Nardpuncher
Rear Admiral
Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
Way ahead of you!
^ Start bangin', pal.
Way ahead of you!
Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
^ You're off by about 10 years. Articles took place in 2380. Destiny takes place in multiple time periods, with the majority of the action in 2381.
As for annotations, I'd like to, but I just don't have the time right now to compile one.
^ You're off by about 10 years. Articles took place in 2380. Destiny takes place in multiple time periods, with the majority of the action in 2381.
As for annotations, I'd like to, but I just don't have the time right now to compile one.
Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
Any news on when we'll see the cover art for the books?
Any news on when we'll see the cover art for the books?
Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
ETA: Sorry for jumping in on you there, David...
I would imagine they'll release them at Shore Leave next month. The cover for Mere Mortals was shown at NYCC, but wasn't released generally because, IIRC, Pocket wanted to release all three together.
ETA: Sorry for jumping in on you there, David...
Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers
^ Not yet. It's still being produced. No word from my esteemed editors as to whether it will be ready in time for the Shore Leave convention July 11-13.
^ Not yet. It's still being produced. No word from my esteemed editors as to whether it will be ready in time for the Shore Leave convention July 11-13.
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