Destiny trilogy - speculations

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

But people will judge it on the blurb - if they're browsing Amazon, or if they read the cover in a bookstore, the blurb is normally all they have to base their opinions on - and if they react in the same way as some people here, they're probably not going to buy it.

Perhaps initially, but those same fans may/will rush back when/if good word of mouth, positive reviews and media hype kick in.

 

[Defcon]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

... and media hype kick in.

What media hype? Seriously, I can't remember any Trek book being hyped in the media outside trek related websites, and I doubt they reach the casual book buyer reading the blurb in the books shop.

 

[Captain W Riker]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Any news on when we'll see the cover art for the books?

I would imagine they'll release them at Shore Leave next month. The cover for Mere Mortals was shown at NYCC, but wasn't released generally because, IIRC, Pocket wanted to release all three together.

ETA: Sorry for jumping in on you there, David...

Love your avatar, by the way!

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Perhaps initially, but those same fans may/will rush back when/if good word of mouth, positive reviews and media hype kick in.

What world do you like in, Ian, that where there's "media hype" for Star Trek novels?

I haven't seen Pocket take out even ads in the sci-fi magazines in at least five years.

Frankly, I think the attitude is that if Pocket publishes it, people will come. But, you know, the marketplace is not Field of Dreams. If people don't know about your product, they're not likely to buy it.

 

[Dayton Ward]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

^ I know there were full-page ads in mags like Analog and Asimov's for the Time to books, and Summon the Thunder, Titan, etc., but I don't know if there's anything more recent.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Perhaps initially, but those same fans may/will rush back when/if good word of mouth, positive reviews and media hype kick in.

What world do you like in, Ian, that where there's "media hype" for Star Trek novels?

I haven't seen Pocket take out even ads in the sci-fi magazines in at least five years.

Frankly, I think the attitude is that if Pocket publishes it, people will come. But, you know, the marketplace is not Field of Dreams. If people don't know about your product, they're not likely to buy it.

On the other hand, people read the reviews in magazines like DreamWatch and TV Zone. If they will be positive, it might have some impact. Me personally, I read them but it happens very often that I disagree with the reviewer in question.

People also look what is written on sites like Amazon and back cover descriptions. They are important means of advertising, more important than putting adverts into magazines. If these blurbs are inaccurate, I think it is about time to put more effort into it to publish good, accurate blurbs early on. If they are accurate, hopefully next time they will be better. It already starts with it to make sure that everything is spelled correctly.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

What world do you like in, Ian, that where there's "media hype" for Star Trek novels?.

Um, Titan's Star Trek magazine? Dreamwatch? TV Zone? Diamond Distribution's catalog?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

I doubt they reach the casual book buyer reading the blurb in the books shop.

Well, a casual book buyer is already in the shop, and that's when the cover art and blurb have to do their job.

Titan's Star Trek magazine always does excellent coverage on the Star Trek novels and comics - and I'd guess the aim there is that if someone's already enough of a ST fan to be browsing, buying or reading a ST magazine, then they are of excellent potential to be swayed by an extract from the upcoming ST novel, or a review of same.

 

[Defcon]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

What world do you like in, Ian, that where there's "media hype" for Star Trek novels?.

Um, Titan's Star Trek magazine? [...] Diamond Distribution's catalog?

I don't think these magazine/catalogues will reach the casual guy browsing through the book shop, reading the blurb and not being impressed.

Dreamwatch? TV Zone?

I skimmed through a few issues of Dreamwatch (no chance I spend more than 10 € for the imported magazine) in the past and your defintion of hype seems to be very different from mine. All I saw where a few (rather short) reviews of the books, and most of the time they weren't really that glowing, so that they could be described as "hype".

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

I don't think these magazine/catalogues will reach the casual guy browsing through the book shop, reading the blurb and not being impressed.

Um? Titan's "Star Trek" magazine does much more than simply reprint a blurb - they review the novels, print pre-release extracts, support the extract with other related articles (eg. the Borg of canonical ST if it's a Borg novel) - and sometimes even commission new artwork, or rejig other art to suit the extracts.

And, as I said, the cover art of the book itself is what hits the "casual" browsers in a book shop. Nothing in a Star Trek magazine is really aimed at them.

your defintion of hype seems to be very different from mine. All I saw where a few (rather short) reviews of the books, and most of the time they weren't really that glowing, so that they could be described as "hype".

Pocket Books would send out standard media releases for each new novel. They can't be held responsible for how various magazines will present the information.

No, Pocket doesn't seem to be taking out full-page magazine advertising at the moment. But "Destiny" seems to be a major event - and JJ's ST is on the horizon - so I'm expecting the hyping of ST books to step up. I'm puzzled why everyone assumes there won't be any publicity for ST tie-ins in the next few months as we build towards ST XI.

But Pocket Books would also do the numbers on this marketing stuff: if they spent money on full page ads five years ago but sales figures didn't change much, then they don't keep doing that style of advertising. It seems to me that if Titan (and online sources) like to have (and use) new extracts, then that's what Pocket will supply.

There's also been three annual examples of cross pollenization advertising with TokyoPop.

 

[Defcon]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

I don't think these magazine/catalogues will reach the casual guy browsing through the book shop, reading the blurb and not being impressed.

Um? Titan's "Star Trek" magazine does much more than simply reprint a blurb - they review the novels, print pre-release extracts, support the extract with other related articles (eg. the Borg of canonical ST if it's a Borg novel) - and sometimes even commission new artwork, or rejig other art to suit the extracts.

O.K., sometimes I really wonder if you actually read and comprehend what other people have written. What you have written here has zero to do with my post you quoted or the point I was trying to make. Nowhere I have said that the magazine only publishes blurbs, I was talking about the fact that the casual reader who only has read the blurb and wasn't impressed isn't really someone who would be reached by the "hyping" ST magazine.

But since you seem to be unable to follow the thread I will recap the conversation for you:

But people will judge it on the blurb - if they're browsing Amazon, or if they read the cover in a bookstore, the blurb is normally all they have to base their opinions on - and if they react in the same way as some people here, they're probably not going to buy it.

Perhaps initially, but those same fans may/will rush back when/if good word of mouth, positive reviews and media hype kick in.

What world do you like in, Ian, that where there's "media hype" for Star Trek novels?.

Um, Titan's Star Trek magazine? Dreamwatch? TV Zone? Diamond Distribution's catalog?

So we were talking about those people already not impressed by the blurb (and cover) they read/saw in the shop or on Amazon, and you said the "media hype" would bring them "back". And when Allyn and I asked what media hype all you mentioned were magazines who may hype TrekLit , but obviously are not aimed at the casual reader and magazines whose connection to TrekLit is limited to mini reviews you can hardly consider as hype.

your defintion of hype seems to be very different from mine. All I saw where a few (rather short) reviews of the books, and most of the time they weren't really that glowing, so that they could be described as "hype".

Pocket Books would send out standard media releases for each new novel. They can't be held responsible for how various magazines will present the information.

No, Pocket doesn't seem to be taking out full-page magazine advertising at the moment. But "Destiny" seems to be a major event - and JJ's ST is on the horizon - so I'm expecting the hyping of ST books to step up. I'm puzzled why everyone assumes there won't be any publicity for ST tie-ins in the next few months as we build towards ST XI.

But Pocket Books would also do the numbers on this marketing stuff: if they spent money on full page ads five years ago but sales figures didn't change much, then they don't keep doing that style of advertising. It seems to me that if Titan (and online sources) like to have (and use) new extracts, then that's what Pocket will supply.

There's also been three annual examples of cross pollenization advertising with TokyoPop.

You were talking about "media hype" before, now all you mention is advertisement/cross promotion in the magazine and the mangas. Media hype is something different, at least in my opinion. Media hype is when something is talked about in almost every media outlet, not only the in the media aimed at the normal target audience of the subject (and even there TrekLit is mostly more the filler material than the headlining news).

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

O.K., sometimes I really wonder if you actually read and comprehend what other people have written.

I read them all, of course, but obviously I do not comprehend what you are trying to say. But that may not be my fault that your statement was not clear. If it wasn't clear to me, it might not be clear to others.

You said "I don't think these magazine/catalogues will reach the casual guy browsing through the book shop, reading the blurb and not being impressed" and it sounded (to me) like you were saying they contained a blurb only. In case that was what you thought, I said that the magazines carry more than just blurbs. It is possible to read your comment and assume you are saying they contain blurbs to read.

What you have written here has zero to do with my post you quoted or the point I was trying to make.

And I said (twice now) that the magazine articles are not aimed at casual browsers in book shops. They are aimed at ST fans, only about 1% of whom buy ST novels regularly.

Nowhere I have said that the magazine only publishes blurbs, I was talking about the fact that the casual reader who only has read the blurb and wasn't impressed isn't really someone who would be reached by the "hyping" ST magazine.

And I addressed that.

But since you seem to be unable to follow the thread I will recap the conversation for you

No need to be rude, just set me on Ignore if I annoy you that much.

you said the "media hype" would bring them "back".

So Pocket Books will do no promotion of the "Destiny" trilogy?

obviously are not aimed at the casual reader

I don't think Pocket Books has ever targeted "casual readers", and nor should they. They have usually targeted casual Star Trek readers - and Star Trek readers read ST magazines.

magazines whose connection to TrekLit is limited to mini reviews you can hardly consider as hype.

Titan's ST magazine does not contain mini reviews. They are extensive articles and previously unseen excerpts.

You were talking about "media hype" before, now all you mention is advertisement/cross promotion in the magazine and the mangas. Media hype is something different, at least in my opinion. Media hype is when something is talked about in almost every media outlet, not only the in the media aimed at the normal target audience of the subject (and even there TrekLit is mostly more the filler material than the headlining news).

The only way Pocket can ensure such hype is taking out advertising. They already send out press releases out on every new title - it says so in their quarterly marketing catalogues - in an attempt to generate hype, but it's up to the media to use them.

Additionally, the odd controversy helps. Pocket got some mileage out of Harlan Ellison's anger over "Crucible" and Shatner's anger over "Academy: Collision Course". "Before Dishonor" was also controversial, although Janeway's fate failed to make waves in the public arena - but may yet be further elaborated by "Destiny". As people have said, "Destiny" is a David Mack trilogy, so the death count may be high. more controversy, more sales. Hopefully.

Okay, you're right. Pocket Books is run by idiots who wouldn't know how to promote books if you paid them. Happy now?

There will be hype for "Destiny", or at least there will be extracts in Titan's magazine, reviews in the SF mags, listings in the trade magazines, and media releases sent out to the press. If there isn't, they are idiots.

 

[Kopernikus]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Nw Versions of the Backcover-Texts, taken from the Pocket-Books Fall 2008-catalogue. Nothing dramatically different but these versions say nothing about Captain Dax, Captain Hernandez or the Columbia anymore.

The first novel in an epic crossover trilogy
that unites characters from every corner
of the Star Trek universe.

Blitzkrieg attacks by the Borg leave entire worlds aflame. No one knows how they are slipping past Starfleet’s defenses, so Captain Picard and the crew of the Enterprise have to find out. Thousands of light-years away,Captain Riker and the crew of the Titan follow bizarre energy pulses to a mysterious, hidden world. But what they find there is a Starfleet captain long thought dead. At the same time, in the Gamma Quadrant, a new captain and her crew investigate the wreck of a starship missing in action for more than two centuries.Four starships. Four captains. Four lives about to intersect—and discover their shared destiny.

The second novel in an epic crossover
trilogy that unites characters from every
corner of the Star Trek universe.

The Borg have found a secret passage through subspace and are using it to attack the Federation. But the passage is one of many, and Captain Picard must find the right one— and lead a counterstrike to stop the impending invasion. Meanwhile, Captain Riker and the Titan’s crew are held captive by the reclusive and powerful aliens known as the Caeliar. Titan’s freedom hinges on the action of a fellow prisoner—one who Riker isn’t sure he can trust. After so long as the Caeliar’s prisoner, will Riker’s unlikely new ally dare to fight for her freedom? Or is an eternity in captivity her inescapable destiny?

The stunning conclusion to the an epic
trilogy that unites characters from every
corner of the Star Trek universe.

An armada of several thousand Borg cubes has wiped out a fleet of ships sent by the Federation and its allies. The Collective’s goal this time isn’t assimilation—it’s extermination. Captain Picard and Captain Riker unite in a final desperate bid to halt the Borg’s genocidal march through known space. But their starships are no match for the Borg armada. They must risk everything on a desperate, last-ditch plan that might end the Borg threat forever—or transform it into an unstoppable menace that will devour the galaxy. Destruction or salvation—only one will be their final destiny.

 

[Defcon]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

What you have written here has zero to do with my post you quoted or the point I was trying to make.

And I said (twice now) that the magazine articles are not aimed at casual browsers in book shops. They are aimed at ST fans, only about 1% of whom buy ST novels regularly.

And I addressed that.

That doesn't change the fact that we were talking about the casual reader in the book shop, when you came in with your media hype and mentioned the magazines as part of the hype. And all I pointed out was the fact that the ST Magazine which actually is hyping the books doesn't reach the group of people we were discussing and the others (like Dreamwatch) are hardly hyping the books.

I don't think Pocket Books has ever targeted "casual readers", and nor should they.

No, because it is a bad thing to maybe bring in new people who could become regular readers. Just lets try to keep the same cadre of people over years and decades, it's not as if they could become older, get tired of the books or die sometime down the road.

They have usually targeted casual Star Trek readers - and Star Trek readers read ST magazines.

Really? Sorry that I haven't got the memo. I'm more than a casual TrekLit reader and I never bought a ST magazine in my life, and the last Sci-Fi magazine I bought was more than five years ago.

So Pocket Books will do no promotion of the "Destiny" trilogy?

Okay, you're right. Pocket Books is run by idiots who wouldn't know how to promote books if you paid them. Happy now?

No, since all I said was that I doubt there will be any "media hype". And Pocket Books has little influence on the chance if their promotions/press releases/ etc. will lead to a media hype or not.
Normal promotions and press releases don't equal media hype in my opinion.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Nw Versions of the Backcover-Texts, taken from the Pocket-Books Fall 2008-catalogue. Nothing dramatically different but these versions say nothing about Captain Dax, Captain Hernandez or the Columbia anymore.

"Anymore" is the wrong choice of words. This Fall '08 catalog is probably several months old already, and its versions of the blurbs are probably more preliminary than what was released on Amazon.co.uk. And as a rule, the information from these seasonal PDF catalogues should always, always be treated as preliminary and unreliable. They're meant to let retailers know what books are going to be available for ordering, not to provide the public with information about the books' content. Heck, the catalogue didn't even get Book 1's title right.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

That doesn't change the fact that we were talking about the casual reader in the book shop, when you came in with your media hype and mentioned the magazines as part of the hype.

So you reckon a person turned off by a blurb will never be influenced to have a go at it anyway if/when they hear a book is good?

Please explain what Pocket can do to create media hype? They can't really. If a ST book causes controversy, they'll get their hype.

I didn't realise it was a private conversation that allowed no deviations whatsoever. I still say that a casual browser originally turned off by a blurb can be convinced otherwise by word of mouth. The problem is, where do your never-read-ST-mags browsers plan to be to hear any hype?

What will reach them?

No, because it is a bad thing to maybe bring in new people who could become regular readers. Just lets try to keep the same cadre of people over years and decades, it's not as if they could become older, get tired of the books or die sometime down the road.

So tell Pocket Books they're doing it all wrong, not me. And offer them some useful solutions. I can't do anything to help, except spreading my own word-of-mouth about the ST novels I read.

I'd always support attempts to bring in new ST readers. As ST: TMP, ST IV and "First Contact" proved, what brings new readers to the ST fiction is a well-hyped, successful ST movie. Pocket will just go with the flow. Roll on JJ's "Star Trek".

I never bought a ST magazine in my life, and the last Sci-Fi magazine I bought was more than five years ago.

When did I saw they bought the magazines? I was actually responding to your comment that you deliberately avoided buying Dreamwatch imports, but still looked at it every now and then. I talked about ST fans reading the extracts and articles about ST books in ST mags, not buying them.

ST books discussed in ST mags will still reach the casual ST browser, even if they don't buy the magazine.

Normal promotions and press releases don't equal media hype in my opinion.

Then where does this hype come from? The reporters have to start somewhere.

 

[Defcon]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

That doesn't change the fact that we were talking about the casual reader in the book shop, when you came in with your media hype and mentioned the magazines as part of the hype.

So you reckon a person turned off by a blurb will never be influenced to have a go at it anyway if/when they hear a book is good?

No, all I say that it is unlikely that they will even see the "hype" in the Star Trek magazine. Not more.

Please explain what Pocket can do to create media hype? They can't really.

Again I have to ask you if you have read my post above, where I wrote:

And Pocket Books has little influence on the chance if their promotions/press releases/ etc. will lead to a media hype or not.

I didn't realise it was a private conversation that allowed no deviations whatsoever.

Stop quoting (part of) posts you don't really want to talk about, just post what you want to say and everythings fine.

I still say that a casual browser originally turned off by a blurb can be convinced otherwise by word of mouth.

And I agree, all I disagree on is your opinion that there is some kind of media hype that will reach them. It is far more likely that they buy the book after maybe one of their friends has read it and recommends it.

So tell Pocket Books they're doing it all wrong, not me. And offer them some useful solutions. I can't do anything to help, except spreading my own word-of-mouth about the ST novels I read.

I'd always support attempts to bring in new ST readers. As ST: TMP, ST IV and "First Contact" proved, what brings new readers to the ST fiction is a well-hyped, successful ST movie. Pocket will just go with the flow. Roll on JJ's "Star Trek".

Again all I'm disagreeing about is that there will be any special media hype for the books. They may or may not profit from the hype that will likely surround the new movie if it isn't a total failure, but that's only a side effect and not really something you could consider media hype for the books. I doubt the books will be mentioned when there are article about the movie in the regular magazines/newspapers.

I never bought a ST magazine in my life, and the last Sci-Fi magazine I bought was more than five years ago.

When did I saw they bought the magazines? I was actually responding to your comment that you deliberately avoided buying Dreamwatch imports, but still looked at it every now and then. I talked about ST fans reading the extracts and articles about ST books in ST mags, not buying them.

ST books discussed in ST mags will still reach the casual ST browser, even if they don't buy the magazine.

O.K., you have a point there.

Normal promotions and press releases don't equal media hype in my opinion.

Then where does this hype come from? The reporters have to start somewhere.

All I doubt is that any reporters who aren't working for a ST related media will do something with it to create your media hype.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Stop quoting (part of) posts you don't really want to talk about, just post what you want to say and everythings fine.

Huh? Again, I do not comprehend. I thought it was bad netiqette to quote a whole post. (You said, "we were talking about the casual reader in the book shop, when you came in..." which makes me feel like I was somehow intruding on a private conversation.)

If I quote part of a post, it's simply to indicate what particular part of your post I'm addressing. Is that the wrong thing to do? Since when?

All I doubt is that any reporters who aren't working for a ST related media will do something with it to create your media hype.

Reporters use official media releases all the time, often as research for a current story, or to instigate an article. So, for example, Harlan Ellison goes on a bender about "Crucible", and any reporter writing that article is given the media release about "Crucible: McCoy" to back up his story. Or, a scientist creates a cybernetic hand and a media release about the latest Borg novel is handed to the reporter. Doesn't mean he'll use it, though.

How might "Destiny" trilogy make into the mainstream media? I dunno, i guess David Mack has to ensure he kills off a few really popular ST regulars in each volume.

 

[danjamesb]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

As ST: TMP, ST IV and "First Contact" proved, what brings new readers to the ST fiction is a well-hyped, successful ST movie. Pocket will just go with the flow. Roll on JJ's "Star Trek".

Fair enough, but with the novels as they are now, will the same really happen with "JJ's Star Trek"?

 

[Defcon]

Re: Destiny trilogy - pretty heavy spoilers

Stop quoting (part of) posts you don't really want to talk about, just post what you want to say and everythings fine.

Huh? Again, I do not comprehend. I thought it was bad netiqette to quote a whole post.

If I quote part of a post, it's simply to indicate what particular part of your post I'm addressing. Is that the wrong thing to do? Since when?

a) You yourself have said above you weren't talking about the people mentioned in the quote by TrekkieBez you used. All im saying is that you should stop quoting things you don't really want to talk about and just post what you want to say without adding a quote barely related or totally unrealted to what you're saying. That way the chances are reduced that people assume you are talking about what you're quoting and the chances of debates like this one are minimized.

b) I only added the (part of) because I have seen you doing it with both full quotes and partial quotes here and over at psiphi. Actually one of those cases led to your cute little disclaimer IIRC.