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Design a more rational TNG fleet

When preparing for the Borg, Starfleet decides to do Wargames. Picard and his crew find these to be annoying due to that not being their primary mission and Starfleet has, at least up to that point, been capable of dealing with things with their usual Academy training. Riker was a clever tactician is noted in his record. The crew does acknowledge that the Borg are an issue, having faced them already. But Starfleet thought they had more time, at least another year or two, to prepare. With that time, and the Borg not assimilating Picard, would Starfleet have won? Possibly. The Enterprise by itself was figuring stuff out and surviving long enough to evade and report findings. The problem was because Picard knew all that stuff and gave the Borg an advantage over anything Starfleet had at that time. The Borge had shown no prior interest in such things, so that was a surprise to Starfleet and they didn't react to it quickly enough to save the fleet at Wolf 359, but the Enterprise still managed to work around the problem and came up with a solution.
 
Speaking solely for myself, I've always preferred a more broader and multi-mission fleet than what we've traditionally seen in canon. I have no issue with Starfleet building dedicated warships, given the long history of conflict between the Federation and the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians etc.

I do however agree with the approach taken by some sources like Jackill and SotSF, where the ratio of true combat vessels like battleships and dreadnoughts is much smaller than that of cruisers, frigates and other classes that are more flexible in mission roles. I also agree that, in the context of things like burying the hatchet with the Klingon Empire and the Romulans isolating themselves for half a century, it would make sense for Starfleet to devote fewer resources to the traditional military budget and free up more of them for exploration and expansion. I think it's one of those things that could be modified as needs dictate.

The Excelsior class is kind of an interesting example, as FASA treated it as a battleship designed in direct response to newer enemy models in addition to being a testbed for the next generation of technology. Some later sources have assumed the Excelsiors were downgraded into more of a heavy cruiser role in the TNG+ era, with Jackill using them as as replacements for the older Constitution family. Which seems quite plausible to me.

I also like that the FASA RPG allowed for both the Klingons and the Romulans to have their own exploration branches alongside their military departments, although it might be far to say the Romulan one is more similar to the Starfleet model. The Klingon Diplomatic Corps is responsible (among other things) for recruiting holdings into the Empire without necessarily using military force, in circumstances where that would be more prudent.
 
how "classic" do we mean, here? didn't the bbc kinda tape over the really old ones, so there maybe COULDN'T be reused footage, even if they wanted?
 
how "classic" do we mean, here? didn't the bbc kinda tape over the really old ones, so there maybe COULDN'T be reused footage, even if they wanted?

A handful of Hartnell episodes, and over half of Troughton’s. But that’s not really what I’m talking about.
 
I seem to recall they made the early Pertwee era Earth bound to save money. That was also when the BBC went into color.
 
The Tom Baker era had a large number of one-off craft.

He was the Doctor for the longest time. So yes, there were a lot of spaceship models built during his tenure.

I will correct myself though. Nerva Beacon was used in two different episodes, but it doesn’t count because it was supposed to be the same station, only at different points in time.

One a vacuum cleaner.

Which one was that?
 
It seems as if a number of people here are arguing that the TNG Starfleet, or at least Starfleet up to the Borg, was able to handle the problems it was facing.

The Galaxy-class was enough to address most things it might face. It was fine to travel alone, since that has been done historically. Moreover, the Galaxy-class was available both to investigate scientific phenomena, and respond to border incidents.

That's fair. TNG depicted Enterprise as being capable of addressing most of the missions sent its way.

At the same time, there exist out there a great many critiques about how prone the Galaxy-class was to warp core breaches, Starfleet's sparse and inadequate presence, and its lackadaisical approach towards military planning in a galaxy where the Federation is surrounded by armed empires.

It seems as if it would be helpful if these two sides were able to to meet and discuss their respective arguments. I'm not sure I've seen that happen. People are talking in the absence of one another, or at each other. I think right now it's basically up to people's own interpretation of the canon as to whether Starfleet is organized rationally for its mission. That could change, were a fiercer debate to happen.
 
Which one was that?
The Morestrian probe ship (Planet of Evil)

I seem to remember reading that it was a vacuum. Scott Manley inherited lots of vacuum cleaners.

I am surprised this hasn’t been used

Really nice ships here as well
 
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If we just go by screen evidence, Starfleet does seem to have had an issue between the TOS movies and TNG whereby it just stopped keeping much of its fleet current. Obviously the Doylist explanation is that the showrunners didn't want to, or didn't have the budget to, build a bunch of ships to fill out the lower ranks of Starfleet.

Starfleet has its cruisers more than covered in the 2350s - you've got the Galaxy and Nebula on the way, a few Ambassadors still running around and a bunch of Excelsiors, plus all the Wolf 359 kitbashes. There is, however, a need for something that would fill the real-world role of a multirole destroyer or frigate, and something else that would fill the role of a patrol boat.

The hypothetical multirole destroyer: In theory, the New Orleans could fill this role, but with a complement of around 500 people, it's not exactly a small ship. It probably slots in as more of a large destroyer or small cruiser. The later Intrepid might also be a bit big for the role despite its personnel reductions. The ideal workhorse multirole destroyer for the TNG era feels like it'd hit a few bullets for me:
  • About 200m length tops.
  • Relatively low endurance compared to the cruisers. The Enterprise needs to last in deep space for years at a time. The hypothetical destroyer doesn't. It needs to stay in Federation space, travel between starbases and refuel once it gets there.
  • Related to the endurance: These aren't luxury liners. Most crew get hot bunks and trade off in shifts. Officers get their own rooms, but they're not luxury suites.
  • High enough speed to keep up with the larger ships in short bursts.
  • A relatively balanced loadout, though with minimal reception space; diplomatic functions are for starbases when you're the hypothetical multirole destroyer. Some labs, mostly related to sensor analysis and communication. Well-rounded defensive systems.
  • A focus on sublight maneuverability compared to the cruisers. These ships are bigger than a Bird of Prey, sure, but their job in a pitched fight is to be maneuverable, accurate and disruptive.
Actually, a TNGified Centaur may fit the bill for some of this. Something with the saucer-deflector-nacelles design - putting everything in the saucer is good for efficient space use, if nothing else.

The other piece, for me, is something Starfleet simply doesn't have: Local patrol boats. There's no point in assigning a single large cruiser to a sector if it has to cover it all at once. Small, simple patrol ships that can tackle local problems can solve the "only ship in the sector" issue. The Oberth might fit here, but is likely too specialized for scientific missions. What's needed is something closer to a "tactical Oberth," or something along the scale of a Bird of Prey. I'm thinking....
  • Nothing larger than the 110m given for the B'rel.
  • Endurance is not a design consideration. Accommodations are also likely to be fairly Spartan. Group bunks, limited replicators, that sort of thing. These ships won't be meant for deep space. They're meant to patrol systems and provide security against stuff like smuggling, illegal dilithium mining and hazardous asteroid removal. It's entirely possible the crew don't even sleep aboard, but disembark and doze on a starbase. A crew of around 50 might be all you need.
  • Atmospheric landing capability is probably useful here, especially if we're going to post these on frontier planets that may not have a full starbase or outpost.
  • No diplomatic facilities. That's the starbase's job.
  • Loadout priority: Sensors and communications. The patrol boat needs to be able to spot any type of threat coming, whether it's space pirates or some kind of weird subspace screwery, and communicate the threat to the appropriate authorities if there's a need to rope in more sophisticated resources.
  • For speed, priority goes to warping around in short bursts to get to trouble spots quick. Sublight maneuverability and mobility are also important here.
  • These ships can be built "for but not with" more complex weapons. In peacetime, the hypothetical patrol ship might be able to get by with a relatively modest armament, but room can be left to increase the weapons load. In wartime, they can be given the extra weapons and used like torpedo boats - they drop in, they fire their torpedoes, they jump out.
The idea is that in peacetime, the patrol boats solve the "only ship in the sector" issue by providing a local response that can tackle most petty issues, while being able to put on their big boy pants and act as supporting firepower in the event of a major conflict.
 
Personally, I think a lot of lore-crafting videos (and indeed the show itself at times!) tend to work off the basis of Starfleet being "WW2-in-space" conceptually, when actually its more like "Age-of-sail-in-space".

This is leads to the confusion over nomenclature and ship roles.

Essentially, Starfleet and Starships are equivalent to something like the early US Navy. The whole Constitution class plus the Age of Discovery parallels make this rather explicit. This is why it is a "cruiser-heavy" force: the difference being more one of mission than actual ship design between a cruiser and a frigate. There are however still heavy frigates and light frigates, and arguably something like Picard's Enterprise D is more of a ship-of-the-line. The whole thing is Horatio Hornblower in space, and viewed through that lens the fleet composition makes a heck of a lot more sense.

Based on this, here's my suggestion for how to rationalize the ship nomenclature and roles, without using too much in the way of outdated nomenclature your average viewer won't understand. I'm mixing Watsonian and Doyleist reasoning here so hold on to your hats!

Battleship or Ship-of-the-Line:
I personally prefer the latter because it still get used occasionally in a colloquial way yet is less blunt than "Battleship", but since the two are derived from the same root, that may be a distinction without difference.

This is your Enterprise-D and Nebula class, arguably more of the latter because I feel like the Enterprise might be a special design as the flagship, possibly more of a battlecruiser in concept with a greater range and speed than the Nebula which is clearly a more compact and robust type of design meant to take a beating, and give it right back. The Nebula is the sort of ship that ought to form the bulk of the battle fleet, yet at the same time you might not see them so much on patrol as they are large and expensive to run (in terms of crew, if nothing else). But when they do appear, they'd be the center of a force, and you'd see maybe two or three of them. They ought to be treated as the sort of ship that turns up at major engagements such as Dominion War battles & Borg encounters and the center and pride of the fleet, available only in limited numbers.

Cruisers:
These are, for the most part, our hero ships. They are basically the same a frigates, perhaps heavy frigates, and they are assigned to individual patrols. They seek out new worlds without breaking the bank, they are the biggest thing in a backwater sector, and they are the bulk of the force. In war, a squadron of them can easily be thrown together to support heavier units, and they are some of the smallest ships that can fight in a line of battle.

This is where I'd put ships like Intrepid, Streamrunner, and Akira go. They strike me as the type of ship that have the same level of technology and strength as the larger ships of the line in a more compact package, and are probably worth at least two regular frigates in terms of strength.

In an earlier period, I'd argue that the New Orleans, Cheyenne, and Springfield go too, later being downgraded to frigate status.

This is the size & strength bracket good stories are built around, at least in terms of Star Trek. These are the kinds of ships that seem to have that right mix of big enough to be a threat, especially if more than one shows up in an episode, but small enough that among the ocean of the stars they are truly alone. From a doctrinal standpoint, they are also an extremely good compromise when it comes to firepower, speed, size, and range. They probably aren't perfect for every mission, but they do what you need them to do for most missions, and they are adaptable enough that if you assign several to a mission, you can be confident that they will be able to meet almost any need.

In engagements like the Klingon Civil War blockade, perhaps one or two of these ships would serve as the flagships for small squadrons. They'd be accompanied by some frigates as well, ideally

Frigates:
These could actually be the same rate or type of ships as cruisers, but assigned to more mundane patrol duties. The sort of ships that "hauls butt between starbabses" if you will. For both doctrinal and storytelling purposes, I think we can assume these are the light frigate\cruisers to our heavy frigate\cruisers than are our hero ships. They can still hold their own in a fight, and would appear in larger numbers for small fleet battles. Maybe half a dozen? This is really where ships like the Excelsior belong: they are still capable vessels, but not really first-class vessels anymore, so they are more the standard patrol ship now. New Orleans, Cheyenne, and Springfield can also occupy this role as time goes on.

Corvette:
This is where your tough, small ships live. Or not so tough, as they case may be. Smaller and less versatile than the cruiser or frigate, shorter range, maybe slower and older too. Or not. This is the catch-all category for small ships that don't necessarily fit into the larger fleet force but are still necessary for specialized roles. The Miranda and the Centaur fit here nicely, as does the Bird of Prey. They are the gunboats, convoy escorts, and various other special duty warships of the universe, and are associated with specific storylines (big wars, convoy escort stories, DS9 &c) that require a specialized ship. I do tend to think they ought to appear in significant numbers in fleet battles, and get exploded too!

Auxiliaries:
Older Mirandas sans weapons pods, and whatever the California class is lives here. These are your survey ships, your hospital ships, your science vessels, and all other things that a fleet needs but aren't warships (which is not to say they are unarmed!).


I think with this kind of fleet composition, you actually get a fairly well balanced force. I look at Starfleet as being more akin to either the Age-of-Sail from which it was inspired or a more modern type of Navy where all warships are to a degree multi-mission, or otherwise so specialized that they have their own unique classifications.

I'll be honest, the Defiant is... a problem child when it comes to fitting into any kind of nomenclature system. It strikes me as something akin to USS Monitor: extremely specialized for battle, but largely impractical outside of the specific context that birthed it. Yet, in general, arguably revolutionary in terms of hull form, firepower, and armor. The thing is in a class of its own, which is not to say Starfleet wouldn't have built more of them during the Dominion War (they'd be foolish not to, and they clearly did!) but that outside of the wartime environment they'd probably spend alot of time in mothballs at Qualor because their range is quite limited and they are pretty much pure warships without much use outside of war. You could probably get a fun story out of that somehow with post-Civil War parallels of a Navy that has gone back to business as usual technologically, and is sitting on some interesting ships that it's not making use of... that the main characters can break out of retirement!

If we are going for a TNG fleet that omits the movie-era ships entirely, then I think we end up with something along these lines:

Battleships:
Galaxy class
Nebula class
Ambassador class

In WW2 terms, the Galaxy class is equivalent to the latest fast battleship like Iowa, whereas the Nebula is a more regular battleship like South Dakota .

In Age of Sail terms, we are talking of 1st, 2nd & 3rd rate ships of the line.

Cruisers:
Ambassador class
Akira class
Intrepid class

I think that Ambassador class ships might also fit into this category, if for no other reason than we'd otherwise be a bit short on earlier period ships for it. Think of them as potentially razeed 3rd rates in Age of Sail terms, or extra large Heavy Cruisers ala Hawaii in WW2 terms.

In Age of Sail terms, 4th rates and heavy frigates, in WW2 terms heavy cruisers.

All of these ships have good enough lines to be hero ships, and are advanced, versatile, and powerful enough to make up the bulk of the fleet. They are probably lead ships of most squadrons, too, when not on independent patrol.

Ships like Hood, Repulse, &c on TNG arguably should have been Ambassador class (although for real-world parallel reasons I like that they aren't!).

Frigates:
New Orleans class
Cheyenne class
Springfield class

Probably the vast majority of the fleet should be made up of these little guys, and they should have seen more action in the Dominion War period (although maybe they did and were all early casualties?).

WW2 terms Destroyers, Destroyer Escorts &c in Age of Sail 5th rates.

Corvette:
Defiant class
Sabre class

In Age of Sail terms a 6th rate or even a gunboat, in WW2 terms Corvettes, PCs &c.

A tricky role to fill, and definitely one that Starfleet somewhat neglects though arguably not without reason as these small ships probably don't have as good range or versatility as a frigate, the later of which they probably have sufficient numbers of in peacetime. The Defiant is classed here mostly because it's decidedly a warship but otherwise doesn't fit the schema for revolutionary design reasons (see my Monitor analogy). Probably these types of ships are what you mass produce in wartime because they are "a ship" and somedays that is what you need more than anything else. You'd see swarms of them turning up in late war battles, in other words.


The result I think is an actually decent force, provided the ratio of ships is kept reasonable. Arguably in the show we see far too many battleships, and not nearly enough frigates or corvettes. Given cruisers tend to be the "right sized" ship for both Watson & Doyle its no surprise we see alot of them...

Also, I feel like the Enterprises' role as "Flagship of the Federation" is actually somewhat underutilized in TNG. Picard perhaps ought to have been a Commodore, and Riker a Captain, and the diplomatic nature of many missions emphasized a bit more (although they hosted conferences, shuttled about Ambassadors, and went to trouble spots enough I think to justify the moniker). If they'd had the budget, the Enterprise might even have assembled more ad-hoc fleets ala the Klingon Civil War, with Picard often being the ranking officer in the sector (this also helps fix the only ship in the sector problem, by simply making Enterprise the true flagship and thus responsible for whatever the conflict of the week is due to seniority). You could have even filmed stock footage of it and reused it!
 
The hypothetical multirole destroyer: In theory, the New Orleans could fill this role, but with a complement of around 500 people, it's not exactly a small ship. It probably slots in as more of a large destroyer or small cruiser. The later Intrepid might also be a bit big for the role despite its personnel reductions. The ideal workhorse multirole destroyer for the TNG era feels like it'd hit a few bullets for me:


I came to similar conclusions.


Of course, we know why there are so many older ships in TNG. For production-reasons.

But people want it to make sense in universe.



Regardless, yes, I saw the need for two designs:

-a frigate that can sort of keep up with the fleet and make its way efficiently between stars

-maybe something lighter that can be deployed even more cheaply at a greater scale.



The Oberth kept coming up as something that can be one or both of these categories. A 'universal Oberth' that attaches to different models, as some concept art has suggested.

But that's an old design.


So I can see a use for

-a TNG Centaur to act as 'star Frigate'

-a TNG-era universal corvette hull that attaches to specialized mission pods. Or has unused space for heavier weapons, as you suggested.


I don't think there'd be a budget or political motivation for a BOP-like attack ship until at least after the first encounter with the Borg.


Broadly-speaking, I agree with everything you wrote in the post. The only difference is that I'd want the "local patrol boat" to be something that switches into a science vessel and other types of ship via mission pods.

That would actually be an easier pitch to Starfleet than a dedicated local patrol boat. Even if it costs more to develop and field. Given how useful those "Maquis Raiders" were, which were just courier or liason vessels pressed into service as gunships, an actual Starfleet picket could be dangerous against anything short of a real navy.


So what you wrote makes sense, if the TNG Starfleet is envisioned to be like a modern 21st century navy. It's one of the more rational takes on what a well-thought-out and conventional Starfleet would look like.
 
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Personally, I think a lot of lore-crafting videos (and indeed the show itself at times!) tend to work off the basis of Starfleet being "WW2-in-space" conceptually, when actually its more like "Age-of-sail-in-space".

This makes a good deal of sense, and Nicholas Meyer said in the TWOK commentary that he envisioned Starfleet as an imperialistic age-of-sail navy, and that Enterprise and Reliant were two galleons.

[Really, they would be ships-of-the-line, as you say. Just differing in guns-per-deck or the sail arrangement, so-to-speak.]

So, if you contrast your own post to the one directly above yours, you can get different, coherent explanations, based on whether Starfleet is an age-of-sail navy, or a Dreadnought-era one.

BTW, if the Constitutions are ships-of-the-line, than the Mirandas might actually be the frigates, being of similar design, but assigned to more mundane duties. It's how kind of Alan Mack represented it in the Vanguard novels.]

In that case, something like Oberth might be a corvette or sloop, the Bird of Prey being a sloop-of-war. I'll have to reflect more on all of this, because certainly the series treats these ships as though they are independent sailing vessels, for the most part.

The doctrinal role and behaviour of Starfleet ships often resembles age-of-sail counterparts. But the mechanisms of individual ships are a lot more like ironclads or pre-dreadnought warships. So it's like an age-of-sail navy comprised of ironclads. Wherein the new ironclads push the existing ones into lower categories.
 
The fleets in Battletech are kind of like that as well, as most warships have broadside arcs for their main batteries. It's something of a running joke because there have been several plot arcs over time to get rid of space navies to keep more focus on ground units. :rommie:

There's been more recent emphasis on the "pocket warship" concept, where you have smaller transport and dropship scale hulls modified to carry capital and sub-capital weapons. The earliest models were converted dropships that sacrificed their cargo capacity to mount much heavier arsenals than would be normal, but later models were design specific.

I personally like the idea that frigates can be kind of a medium multimission platform, combining a destroyer's mobility with a cruiser's heavier weaponry and equipment options. This is how I've tended to see them in sources like SotSF and the FASA RPG, and it makes them a useful support system.
 
If we just go by screen evidence, Starfleet does seem to have had an issue between the TOS movies and TNG whereby it just stopped keeping much of its fleet current. Obviously the Doylist explanation is that the showrunners didn't want to, or didn't have the budget to, build a bunch of ships to fill out the lower ranks of Starfleet.

Oh, they had the budget to. Heck, they built an entirely new space station model to use as the 'Edo God' in "Justice" (and then proceeded to film it in such a way that you could barely make it out, but that's another story), literally as a one-off design that they only recycled one other time much later in the series. They could have built more contemporary starship models had they wanted to. But instead they decided to stubbornly hold on to the notion to just use the movie models (or stock footage thereof) for guest starships, both Federation and Klingon, despite them being 70 years out of date, while making brand-new alien-of-the-week ships. :shrug:

Starfleet has its cruisers more than covered in the 2350s - you've got the Galaxy and Nebula on the way, a few Ambassadors still running around and a bunch of Excelsiors, plus all the Wolf 359 kitbashes. There is, however, a need for something that would fill the real-world role of a multirole destroyer or frigate, and something else that would fill the role of a patrol boat.

The Raven type was around at least as late as 2347, and while its identity as a Starfleet vessel as opposed to a civilian ship is dubious, it looks enough like a beefed-up runabout that it could potentially have been used as a patrol ship.
 
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Don't forget we have the Passaro type/ Sabrerunner from Lower Decks. Stated to be an older vessel and bridge layout indicated mid 24th century build. Approx. 180m, falls well enough into your patrol ship specs
sabrerunner1-oldfriendsnewplanets.jpg
 
Q already have Picard admit early on: they had be come complacent. With no real foes or current wars, Starfleet was existing in a peace time for a stretch that lulled them into a sense things would continue on as such. Even during the latter days when there was still no peace agreement with the Klingons, it was mostly skirmishes.

Even when presented with the Borg, what did Starfleet do? Design one ship to fight the Borg, then left it away from Earth -- what had been the primary target before. Even then they still were complacent; maybe one Defiant ship could handle the Borg, maybe they had more time, maybe the Borg would never come again and that things would go back to the status quo. The "fleet" as it were, did work for a long time, after all, against previous enemies.

I'm sure non-canonical, behind-the-scenes, people in Starfleet Command and design, were pushing for vessels designed for war, but deaf ears heard the promptings.
 
I do think the question of "What is a spacefleet meant to be analogous to?" hits on the fundamental issue here:

Our idea of what makes a fleet design "rational" is going to be based heavily in assumptions about the nature of space combat and ship engineering. Both battleships and attack craft are based on different theories of survivability. Is tracking a smaller ship actually any kind of an issue for a targeting computer? Is armor really practical to scale up, or is shield generator strength something more tied into engineering constraints on how powerful warp reactors can be or some other detail?

The idea that "use science to solve the problem" isn't valid is based on a world where innovating and deploying new technology in situ is unrealistic, something that technology like the replicator calls into question. Heck, the legendary "Oh, you weren't able to handle this" Dominion always felt like it could plausibly have been dealt with if Bashir's effort to replicate Goran'Agar's lack of ketracel-white dependancy into a treatment that could be applied to other Jem'Hadar. The Dominion has an obviously brittle social structure, but the war is fought with space ships because the writers were more interested in that.

The honestly practical seeming thing for warfare is systems like the automated missiles that showed up in Voyager a few times. No crew to lose, planet devastating amounts of destructive ordinance, it would be horrifying if someone ever put a cloaking device on one. Sort of like how the major powers of the world today maintain nuclear arsenals.
 
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