Design a more rational TNG fleet

[Checker222]

Intro

I caught a video by Venom Geek Media the other day, discussing Starfleet doctrine. Putting aside whether or not people like that channel, it brought up a question I've seen frequently discussed:

What if Starfleet was organized and built in a sensible manner?


The gist of the video is that Starfleet is not organized sensibly, and would not have defeated the Dominion in a stand-up fight.


Why?


-Starfleet is a cruiser force. Almost all ships are cruisers. There are few battleship and few escorts. In combat, some barely-organized cruisers, relying on individal panache, engage the enemy.

When cruisers are lost, and they will be in each engagement, every engagement becomes painful.


-You need battleships to form battle groups and confront the enemy. This is what real-life navies did with peer competitors. They did not send a lone battleship to show the flag, as in the U.S.S. Odyssey.

-The Klingon B'Rel and other similar vessels are excellent for getting in amongst the enemy. They also can escort larger ships. They can be organically attached and detached from formations in a more fluid manner than full-sized cruisers.

-Basically, the cruiser-orientation of Starfleet is blunt and inflexible, offering fewer tactical options than a more mixed and balanced fleet.

-Small frigates could handle many of the tasks that 'large cruisers' are assigned throughout TNG and DS9.

-Ships should never be sent alone on exploration missions. They require a small flotilla, or at least pairs. There could be a dedicated diplomacy/exploration vessel, and a warship ("escort") to protect it. Several TNG episode "problems" would have been solved if multiple starships were present.


So, the question was brought up, either in the video or the comments: How would you sensibly organize Starfleet?


A scenario was suggested:

It is 2350. The Cardassian border wars have involved intense combat. These encounters have placed existing Starfleet doctrine in question.

The hostilities have brought into prominence a political faction that demands the reorganization of Starfleet. So the "Golden Era" people are no longer in charge. Although they remain a powerful faction that has to be placated.

You are given the task of reorganizing Starfleet to rectify the problems uncovered during the Border Conflict. You must also prepare to face the emerging threat from the Romulans, who are rumoured to be embarking on a massive military buildup.



Starship Designs

Given the discussion in the video, it seems like the following categories of Starship are needed:


1. Battleship. A vessel with maximum armour and firepower. Designed to confront the large vessels of the enemy, and form the core of battlegroups.

2. Exploration ship. A ship with the exploratory capability of the Galaxy-class is still needed. At least in terms of what was actually used in the series. This might be combined with the GCS diplomatic and medical facilities, or they might have specialized vessels as well.

3. Cruiser. It is unlikely that this category would disappear from Starfleet, but it needs to be re-conceptualized somewhat.

4. Frigate. A small frigate is necessary to scout areas, ferry people around, and deliver vital supplies to colonies. Somehow, the Enterprise, Nebula-class ships, and Excelsiors are seen doing this in TNG.

5. Attack ship. This is actually a very important category discussed in the video. This ship needs to be affordable, attritable, and capable of working in a variety of formations. It needs to keep enemy attack ships away, while swarming enemy capital ships.



Reorganization


If we're talking 2357-2358, mid Border-War, then it may be too late to stop the fleet we see in S1 TNG. The Galaxy and Nebula programs are probably underway, and most of the "Golden Era" frigate and cruisers may be entering construction / service.

But in 2350, when maybe the Border War has started to heat up unacceptably, it is possible to conceptualize and build a different TNG fleet.



We have to assume that the budget is largely the same, as more resources cannot magically appear. Maybe the "rationalists" are able to obtain a 10-20% budget increase in the years leading up to TNG. There are dangers, but nothing looming like the Borg or the Dominion. [This is 10-20% above the original timeline.]


Ship Categorizations


So what do to about the ships? Going by the categories above:


Battleship


1. If the re-organization is happening mid Border-War, circa 2357, then we may be stuck with the Galaxy and Nebula-class. That's a whole other discussion.

But in 2350, there is time to design a battleship.



It has to be produced in numbers. It should use the underlying technology base of what became the Galaxy-class program, and low-risk innovations if we want to see them arriving during TNG.


Starfleet would probably be limited to the reactor and weapons used on the Galaxy-class. But the actual design of the ship is up for grabs. The GCS's combat capability could probably be used comfortably from a ship not much larger than the Excelsior.

It would probably need long-range and high-speed, in order to escort exploration missions, and pursue Romulans.


Explorer


2. Exploration is still an important mission for Starfleet, even with a 'rationalized' navy.

You would want something with the mission capabilities seen on screen during TNG. It's been said that such capabilities could largely fit in a ship the size of Intrepid or Excelsior.

It's going to need excellent sensors, communications, transporters, shuttlebays. Probably diplomatic facilities. Likely medical facilities, unless there is a separate vessel.

It does not have to be heavily-armed. In fact, that goes against mission. Nor does it have to be extremely fast. But it needs good cruising capabilities, and it has to keep up with modern ships.

So probably something Excelsior-sized. No saucer-separation. The lavish 'explorer-facilities' seen during TNG.


Cruiser

3. I don't know what to say about cruisers. The Freedom and Niagara-class cruisers may be in production, with Akira in the design or prototyping phase. Concentrate on the Akira for now.

The assumption going forward is that cruisers will operate in groups of 3-4, wherever possible.


Frigate


4. The New Orleans seems to be a good frigate for the era. Already in-service by 2360. Maybe even the 2340s. It would be good to standardize on it, until something more modern is available.

Forget the Springfield-class. The Cheyenne seems cool. A limited run would be fine, if they are already in production.

Otherwise, the emphasis on these heavier frigates should be standardization and numbers. Stop producing a wide-range of frigates, and have more New Orleans / Cheyenne in service by 2364.




What about the next-generation Frigate, though?


You want a ship that can do unglamorous missions, cheaply. Relieve the burden on larger ships.

It should be able to evacuate the crew of a damaged starship in an emergency.

To make it affordable, perhaps it carries inflatable life-pods for damaged ships and stations. It can deploy these expanding pods in a disaster area. A larger ship can evacuate those personnel later.

It is lightly-armed, but can accept mission pods with weapons. Or medical facilities. Or cargo pods. You get the idea.

Probably about Constellation-sized, maybe Intrepid. Could be smaller, if the pod concept is taken to the extreme.

For maximum affordability/modularity, you could take a page from the best of the Oberth-class. Not the stupid inaccessibility of the lower pod. But a 'common frigate chassis' that is just the essentials, plus a large pod or pods it connects to. So this common chassis could be all over the place, as well as the pods. So it's also a science vessel, buoy tender, and so on.

The problem would be, you might not have the pod you need when confronting a crisis.


Attack Ship


5. The category of Attack Ship is very important. This is what the Federation is missing, up until near the end of the Dominion War.

The Defiant is too artisanal and expensive. Very few were made over the course of an existential war. They probably can't be fully serviced at most Starfleet facilities. And the technology does not exist in 2350.

We're talking something in the size range of a BOP. It would be like the smaller estimates of the Defiant's size. Where it does not look like there is a shuttlebay. It doesn't need a shuttlebay for its main mission.

The ship will be designed to accept one streamlined pod that attaches to the hull. In regular service, it has no pod. This is where a small shuttlebay or limited scientific facilities could be attached.

It is designed for maximum sublight speed and maneuverability. It has the range to operate usefully from starbases and motherships. But it is not going on long-range exploration missions, unless supported externally. Quarters are extremely spartan.

Defiant-style pulse-phasers are probably not an option yet. But it could have something adapted from the 'megaphasers' seen on Miranda-classes. Something with limited firing arcs, but more powerful than regular phasers. It probably should have forward and aft torpedoes.

Phaser coils that burn out can be rapidly-replaced, and affordably-manufactured.


The Attack Ship is obviously a departure for the Starfleet of this era. It would likely be called an "escort." That way, it could be attached to exploration missions, if necessary.



Doctrine

Starfleet is no longer a 'cruiser force.' Going forward, it has specialized ships offering flexibility in confronting problems.


-The battleships will protect the borders, and escort exploration missions. They can be sent to confront enemy battlegroups.

-The frigates will carry out mundane missions, freeing up battleships and explorers for other missions. They can scout ahead of battlegroups, patrol, and carry out pickets.

-It seems as if cruisers will continue to be necessary for trade protection, colony support, independent scouting, battleship screening, and raiding missions during wartime. They should probably be designed on that basis.

-The Attack Ships are very important in this new doctrine. They will escort larger ships during battle, harrass enemy capital ships, engage enemy attack ships, and engage in raiding.




The video did not discuss much the support and auxillary vessels. So I did not describe science, medical, and engineering vessels.

It might be useful to have mothership vessels to support exploration flotillas. It depends on how lavishly-equipped the exploration ships are, and how utilitarian the warships. Similarly, motherships could support Attack Ship formations on long-range missions, and provide mission pods for frigates.

Perhaps science vessels could be part of their own little flotillas, together with frigates. Something like the Nova-class might be developed early, although not as sophisticated.

I suppose the rest of the budget 2350-64 would be used to keep the existing vessels updated. They constitute the bulk of the fleet. Changes are possible here, as well.

 

[Checker222]

There are some counter-arguments to what is presented above.

It could be argued that the TNG starfleet is fairly rational.


The Enterprise-D, and Galaxy-class, makes sense. If you are building the best possible medical, diplomatic, entertainment, cargo, scanning, shuttle, tractor-beam, and exploratory capabilities, why not match it with some of the best possible armaments and shields?

It's already a big investment and use of technology to produce the Galaxy-class' exploratory facilities. So you might as well ensure they are well-protected and fast. Putting them in one big ship is an economy-of-scale, and will give you the best possible speed, range, and shields.

If the Galaxy-class functions were divided into separate ships, it could be overall less-efficient.


Similarly, some of the situations Galaxy-class ships encountered would not have been improved by having multiple, specialized ships. Having a flotilla would have simply encouraged them to fight 'harder' in situations like "Arsenal of Freedom." The computer virus that blew up the Yamato might have taken down an entire flotilla or more. Whatever ships were sent to Farpoint Station might not have solved the mystery, and there may have been no Picard for Q to talk with.

Various anomalies that the Enterprise-D barely overcame might have overtaken smaller, more specialized vessels.

So maybe the pooling of resources that the Galaxy-class represents may have been the best solution.


A flotilla might also have seemed more provocative in First Contact situations than a single ship.


Similarly, the TNG Starfleet was good enough to keep the Cardassians at bay and keep the peace until Encounter at Farpoint. And all this while keeping peacetime conditions, and not disrupting the lives of Federation citizens. Starfleet's approach of being friendly largely worked. Sisko's engagement with the prophets helped alleviate the problems they were facing in the Dominion War.

However, there is considerable evidence against this view. Starfleet could easily have lost the Dominion War, were it not for the singular actions of a few people. This is not a good basis for self-defense. Without the Enterprise-D's clever crew, the Borg could easily have assimilated Earth. Overall, it would appear as if Starfleet was not adequate for the challenges it was facing. Instead, the Federation ended up relying on individual heroism and cunning to save it from its lack of military organization and planning.

 

[Ithekro]

Simply put, Starfleet is not designed around war or combat. They are designed around defense and exploration. So they don't follow war doctrines unless absolutely necessary, and generally only after a year or so into a war or a war footing period. For most things, Starfleet is more than enough to deal with the situation. Because this is a sci-fi drama series focusing on single crews, the heroes tend to need to save the day. Thus the writers coming out with impossible situations that need impossible heroics to solve. Sometimes to do this they have to have the rest of Starfleet a non-entity. As for the Borg, without Locutus, it is possible Starfleet might have been able to do something to that cube. But with Picard's knowledge it easily knew what Hanson's tactics would be and what every starship's weakness was. The Dominion was overwhelming not just Starfleet, but also the Klingons and Romulans. So that might not be just a Starfleet issue.

Starfleet uses cruisers because a cruiser can operate independently for exploration missions. Battleships are too expensive for that sort of mission historically speaking. Space is vast and there is a LOT of it to explore and patrol. Most other ship types are for local patrol, defense, and interior missions. Add to that the "second contact" type starships (California-class for example) which may have taken over some of the older Miranda-class starships running similar missions earlier in the century before some of them started to get turned into cargo ships and light duty science ships. The big Explorers are supposed to be the starships that go in deep space missions far outside of Federation space for years at a time. That was the USS Enterprise-D's mission starting out, but the writers brought her into Federation Space very quickly, just like Kirk's Enterprise was generally inside Federation Space during the Five Year Mission. A lot of time was spent patrolling borders, revisiting planets, going to diplomatic functions, and delivering people, supplies and such to Federation and allied worlds. Not as much deep space "boldly going" missions of exploration. But the Galaxy-class, with his huge interior spaces and luxurious accommodations, was designed to be away from Federation Space for many years at a time. Not seeing a starbase at all for most of it. A starship so large that you could send out a small number of other ships to meet up with it for resupply (them not it), and have them explore a sector of space using the Galaxy-class ship as a mobile starbase outside Federation Space. That is also why it generally isn't considered a "battleship", its design goal is deep space, independent exploration. A cruiser's normal job, but up to another level as the goal is not a Five Year Mission that is near Federation Space, but a Five plus year mission entirely outside of Federation Space. Starships like USS Olympia went out on an eight year deep space mission outside of Federation Space. That is the kind of mission the Galaxy-class was designed, probably to exceed. Probably a ten year mission wouldn't be out of line for a Galaxy-class, hence why they had families onboard. This might be way there were no Galaxy-class starships back at Earth in 2501. If they had any (aside from the museum ship USS Enterprise) they would have been far outside Federation space doing such missions.

The Border Wars with the Cardassians do not appear to have been that drastic from Starfleet's point of view. The situation seems to have changed due to the Borg and the Battle of Wolf 359. The loss of 39 starships and the redeployment of forces seems to be what shifted the tone on the Cardassian Border to the Federation wanting a truce. This might have also been due to Bajor breaking free from Cardassia on the Cardassian's part of wanting the truce. This might also have been a shift in starships to the Romulan Neutral Zone after they reintroduced themselves.

Prior to that, the last major threats were the Klingons, which were effectively removed following the Khitomer Peace Treaty in the 2290s until maybe the 2340s when the 50 years would have been up and some Klingons might have wanted to fight the Federation traditionally since they have needs for glory and honor in war. The Romulans and the sacrifice of the USS Enterprise-C changed that. Aside from the Klingons the Romulas removed themselves from the Neutral Zone after the Tomed Incident in 2311, and didn't notably do anything towards the Federation until the Borg scooped up outposts on both sides of the Neutral Zone in the 2360s. So there are many decades where Starfleet has not need or desire for them to be on a war footing. Cardassian and the other border conflicts are just not wide spread enough for Starfleet to particularly need any kind of wide scale war doctrine. They typically out tech everyone in the region. So they will science their way out of problems rather than fight their way out. That is if diplomacy fails, which largely it doesn't since the Federation still out techs everyone. The Dominion was the first pier opponent in a long time that out teched the Federation and Starfleet had trouble countering them for a while. (The Borg just adapt regardless and is a different scale of threat). Only when it was clear that diplomacy was not going to stop the Dominion did Starfleet decide to work on war doctrine. And they were ready, even if they had just lost a number of Starships to the Borg in the running battle from the Typhon Sector to Earth and at the Battle of Sector 001. Plus whatever ships they lost fighting the Klingons for a year or so in a border skirmish over the Archanis Sector. By the time the War started, Starfleet had Fleets ready to go and organized. That they were still out teched was one of the major problems. Being outnumbered was another only stopped via the Wormhole being blockaded. First by the mines, then by the Prophets. After Starfleet retakes Deep Space Nine it is more or less a stalemate for years until Starfleet can muster enough forces and wear down the Cardassian part of the Dominion so the Federation Alliance could push on Cardassia and end the war. The Breen were a short term advantage for the Dominion, but Starfleet managed to science that out within months (with the lucky break that the Klingons could be immune to the weapon and thus hold the line while science was working).

 

[Checker222]

I think you've described well how Starfleet imagined and structured itself.

It is not a 20th century imperial navy.


That being said, I guess the question arises: was Starfleet structured optimally for its peacetime mission, early TNG?

The practice of sending out single ships on exploration missions, and other dangerous missions, is questionable. They also seemed to tie up large cruisers on missions that a small frigate could have handled.

I'm glad that you explicitly brought forward Starfleet's practice of "sciencing" or "heroing" its way out of problems. That is indeed the solution they practice. Although, if you were living in that universe, would you want to rely on heroes saving the day?

I think that there are a number of people who watch the show and think, "hmm, they don't really seem to have a fleet capable of handily defeating emerging threats such as the Borg or the Dominion. I don't think I'd feel safe living in the Federation. The Starfleet is not adequate to protect me."



It brings up also the question of wartime. So Starfleet is optimized to allow scientists and heroes to save the day. It's great that people are so empowered. But when you look at the response to the Borg, you get a few specialized anti-Borg vessels that did not seem to be produced in quantity. The most egregious example is the Defiant. They can only have an "ace up the sleeve" presence in a few engagements.

It would seem as if Starfleet overcorrected after Wolf 359 and produced the most expensive, most heavily-armoured, experimental weapon systems and reactor Defiant that could barely move without flying apart. Needing an elite crew to keep it operational.

Meanwhile, most of the fleet are 80-year-old designs, still firing photon torpedos and ball-turret phasers. They weren't able to widely-deploy pulse-phasers or quantum torpedoes. Many Alpha Quadrant ships died to swarms of Jem Hadar fighters, for which only the Klingons had a counter.

In this regard, I am not suggesting that Starfleet was uniquely ill-structured. Videos and commentaries are suggesting that most of the Alpha Quadrant powers had badly-structured fleets. The implication is that better-organized and equipped fleets would have been more effective against the Borg and Dominion.

 

[DarthTimon]

Intro

I caught a video by Venom Geek Media the other day, discussing Starfleet doctrine. Putting aside whether or not people like that channel, it brought up a question I've seen frequently discussed:

What if Starfleet was organized and built in a sensible manner?


The gist of the video is that Starfleet is not organized sensibly, and would not have defeated the Dominion in a stand-up fight.


Why?


-Starfleet is a cruiser force. Almost all ships are cruisers. There are few battleship and few escorts. In combat, some barely-organized cruisers, relying on individal panache, engage the enemy.

When cruisers are lost, and they will be in each engagement, every engagement becomes painful.


-You need battleships to form battle groups and confront the enemy. This is what real-life navies did with peer competitors. They did not send a lone battleship to show the flag, as in the U.S.S. Odyssey.

-The Klingon B'Rel and other similar vessels are excellent for getting in amongst the enemy. They also can escort larger ships. They can be organically attached and detached from formations in a more fluid manner than full-sized cruisers.

-Basically, the cruiser-orientation of Starfleet is blunt and inflexible, offering fewer tactical options than a more mixed and balanced fleet.

-Small frigates could handle many of the tasks that 'large cruisers' are assigned throughout TNG and DS9.

-Ships should never be sent alone on exploration missions. They require a small flotilla, or at least pairs. There could be a dedicated diplomacy/exploration vessel, and a warship ("escort") to protect it. Several TNG episode "problems" would have been solved if multiple starships were present.


So, the question was brought up, either in the video or the comments: How would you sensibly organize Starfleet?


A scenario was suggested:

It is 2350. The Cardassian border wars have involved intense combat. These encounters have placed existing Starfleet doctrine in question.

The hostilities have brought into prominence a political faction that demands the reorganization of Starfleet. So the "Golden Era" people are no longer in charge. Although they remain a powerful faction that has to be placated.

You are given the task of reorganizing Starfleet to rectify the problems uncovered during the Border Conflict. You must also prepare to face the emerging threat from the Romulans, who are rumoured to be embarking on a massive military buildup.



Starship Designs

Given the discussion in the video, it seems like the following categories of Starship are needed:


1. Battleship. A vessel with maximum armour and firepower. Designed to confront the large vessels of the enemy, and form the core of battlegroups.

2. Exploration ship. A ship with the exploratory capability of the Galaxy-class is still needed. At least in terms of what was actually used in the series. This might be combined with the GCS diplomatic and medical facilities, or they might have specialized vessels as well.

3. Cruiser. It is unlikely that this category would disappear from Starfleet, but it needs to be re-conceptualized somewhat.

4. Frigate. A small frigate is necessary to scout areas, ferry people around, and deliver vital supplies to colonies. Somehow, the Enterprise, Nebula-class ships, and Excelsiors are seen doing this in TNG.

5. Attack ship. This is actually a very important category discussed in the video. This ship needs to be affordable, attritable, and capable of working in a variety of formations. It needs to keep enemy attack ships away, while swarming enemy capital ships.



Reorganization


If we're talking 2357-2358, mid Border-War, then it may be too late to stop the fleet we see in S1 TNG. The Galaxy and Nebula programs are probably underway, and most of the "Golden Era" frigate and cruisers may be entering construction / service.

But in 2350, when maybe the Border War has started to heat up unacceptably, it is possible to conceptualize and build a different TNG fleet.



We have to assume that the budget is largely the same, as more resources cannot magically appear. Maybe the "rationalists" are able to obtain a 10-20% budget increase in the years leading up to TNG. There are dangers, but nothing looming like the Borg or the Dominion. [This is 10-20% above the original timeline.]


Ship Categorizations


So what do to about the ships? Going by the categories above:


Battleship


1. If the re-organization is happening mid Border-War, circa 2357, then we may be stuck with the Galaxy and Nebula-class. That's a whole other discussion.

But in 2350, there is time to design a battleship.



It has to be produced in numbers. It should use the underlying technology base of what became the Galaxy-class program, and low-risk innovations if we want to see them arriving during TNG.


Starfleet would probably be limited to the reactor and weapons used on the Galaxy-class. But the actual design of the ship is up for grabs. The GCS's combat capability could probably be used comfortably from a ship not much larger than the Excelsior.

It would probably need long-range and high-speed, in order to escort exploration missions, and pursue Romulans.


Explorer


2. Exploration is still an important mission for Starfleet, even with a 'rationalized' navy.

You would want something with the mission capabilities seen on screen during TNG. It's been said that such capabilities could largely fit in a ship the size of Intrepid or Excelsior.

It's going to need excellent sensors, communications, transporters, shuttlebays. Probably diplomatic facilities. Likely medical facilities, unless there is a separate vessel.

It does not have to be heavily-armed. In fact, that goes against mission. Nor does it have to be extremely fast. But it needs good cruising capabilities, and it has to keep up with modern ships.

So probably something Excelsior-sized. No saucer-separation. The lavish 'explorer-facilities' seen during TNG.


Cruiser

3. I don't know what to say about cruisers. The Freedom and Niagara-class cruisers may be in production, with Akira in the design or prototyping phase. Concentrate on the Akira for now.

The assumption going forward is that cruisers will operate in groups of 3-4, wherever possible.


Frigate


4. The New Orleans seems to be a good frigate for the era. Already in-service by 2360. Maybe even the 2340s. It would be good to standardize on it, until something more modern is available.

Forget the Springfield-class. The Cheyenne seems cool. A limited run would be fine, if they are already in production.

Otherwise, the emphasis on these heavier frigates should be standardization and numbers. Stop producing a wide-range of frigates, and have more New Orleans / Cheyenne in service by 2364.




What about the next-generation Frigate, though?


You want a ship that can do unglamorous missions, cheaply. Relieve the burden on larger ships.

It should be able to evacuate the crew of a damaged starship in an emergency.

To make it affordable, perhaps it carries inflatable life-pods for damaged ships and stations. It can deploy these expanding pods in a disaster area. A larger ship can evacuate those personnel later.

It is lightly-armed, but can accept mission pods with weapons. Or medical facilities. Or cargo pods. You get the idea.

Probably about Constellation-sized, maybe Intrepid. Could be smaller, if the pod concept is taken to the extreme.

For maximum affordability/modularity, you could take a page from the best of the Oberth-class. Not the stupid inaccessibility of the lower pod. But a 'common frigate chassis' that is just the essentials, plus a large pod or pods it connects to. So this common chassis could be all over the place, as well as the pods. So it's also a science vessel, buoy tender, and so on.

The problem would be, you might not have the pod you need when confronting a crisis.


Attack Ship


5. The category of Attack Ship is very important. This is what the Federation is missing, up until near the end of the Dominion War.

The Defiant is too artisanal and expensive. Very few were made over the course of an existential war. They probably can't be fully serviced at most Starfleet facilities. And the technology does not exist in 2350.

We're talking something in the size range of a BOP. It would be like the smaller estimates of the Defiant's size. Where it does not look like there is a shuttlebay. It doesn't need a shuttlebay for its main mission.

The ship will be designed to accept one streamlined pod that attaches to the hull. In regular service, it has no pod. This is where a small shuttlebay or limited scientific facilities could be attached.

It is designed for maximum sublight speed and maneuverability. It has the range to operate usefully from starbases and motherships. But it is not going on long-range exploration missions, unless supported externally. Quarters are extremely spartan.

Defiant-style pulse-phasers are probably not an option yet. But it could have something adapted from the 'megaphasers' seen on Miranda-classes. Something with limited firing arcs, but more powerful than regular phasers. It probably should have forward and aft torpedoes.

Phaser coils that burn out can be rapidly-replaced, and affordably-manufactured.


The Attack Ship is obviously a departure for the Starfleet of this era. It would likely be called an "escort." That way, it could be attached to exploration missions, if necessary.



Doctrine

Starfleet is no longer a 'cruiser force.' Going forward, it has specialized ships offering flexibility in confronting problems.


-The battleships will protect the borders, and escort exploration missions. They can be sent to confront enemy battlegroups.

-The frigates will carry out mundane missions, freeing up battleships and explorers for other missions. They can scout ahead of battlegroups, patrol, and carry out pickets.

-It seems as if cruisers will continue to be necessary for trade protection, colony support, independent scouting, battleship screening, and raiding missions during wartime. They should probably be designed on that basis.

-The Attack Ships are very important in this new doctrine. They will escort larger ships during battle, harrass enemy capital ships, engage enemy attack ships, and engage in raiding.




The video did not discuss much the support and auxillary vessels. So I did not describe science, medical, and engineering vessels.

It might be useful to have mothership vessels to support exploration flotillas. It depends on how lavishly-equipped the exploration ships are, and how utilitarian the warships. Similarly, motherships could support Attack Ship formations on long-range missions, and provide mission pods for frigates.

Perhaps science vessels could be part of their own little flotillas, together with frigates. Something like the Nova-class might be developed early, although not as sophisticated.

I suppose the rest of the budget 2350-64 would be used to keep the existing vessels updated. They constitute the bulk of the fleet. Changes are possible here, as well.

I like your initial thoughts. I think this is gonna be a good thread.

I've had some thoughts along similar lines before. There should be a dedicated military wing to Starfleet, a proper Federation Navy as it were, and a dedicated exploration wing. Some of the existing ship designs circa the TNG era could lend themselves to either role, whilst others would be best-suited to one or the other.

Command ships/battleships: The Galaxy class lends itself to the role of a fleet flag vessel. It has the space and relative comfort that a flag officer may warrant, whilst being capable in a fight. The Sovereign class would also fit into this role, once it joins the fleet.

Heavy cruisers: The Nebula class strikes me as a class that fits this role, and could potentially even act as a command ship, if there aren't enough Galaxies to go around. The Akira class strikes me as another. The Nebula class would be a good platform for slugging it out, with its beefy phaser array, whilst the Akira class can function as a dangerous torpedo boat.

Medium cruisers: The Excelsior and Steamrunner classes could fit this bill. Starfleet clearly maintains faith in the Excelsior design, building them well into the late 24th Century, and we've seen via the Lakota in DS9 that they can be upgraded to be quite formidable for their size. The Steamrunner is a modern interpretation of a ship of that sort of size, featuring the latest, most advanced technology.

Light cruisers: The Sabre class, like the Steamrunner, is a modern development, agile and nimble, good for part of a screen.

Destroyers: whilst the Defiant class may be better suited to the role of escort, it could also fulfil this role. If Starfleet chose to build them en-masse, they could be a considerable pain in the ass for an enemy fleet, considering how they comfortably outgun most other ships their size (and several larger vessels too).

For an 'exploration' wing, you'd still have the likes of the Intrepid class and the Nova class, and the option would still exist - especially in peacetime - for Galaxy and Nebula class ships to join them on such duties.

A smaller number of ship classes would also mean it would be easier to maintain and supply parts.

 

[Checker222]

Yes, I think this is where the discussion was going.


The problem throughout TNG and the other series is that Starfleet is both exploratory and military. This has caused tremendous confusion. Both in the show, and among viewers.

The goals of Picard and the "Golden Era" people diverge from factions within the Admiralty and Earth Starfleet.

This contradiction could be solved by having separate fleets for exploration and military. The bureaucracy for doing so sort of exists already. The United Earth Space Probe Agency could be a separate, purely NASA-like exploration and research entity. While the Starfleet defends the Federation. In the early series, at least.*


As you say, the Galaxy-class is actually an excellent common platform for both roles. Imagine that the GCS had different saucers. One of them being exploration, another being military, etc...

You could swap ships between both fleets very easily that way. And keep ambiguous what ship is doing what, if desired.


So Picard would be operating as part of the "exploration fleet." He could have similar rules of engagement as he did in the series. Whereas other admirals like Paris are part of the "Starfleet."

Imagine how much confusion this would resolve, from TNG and all subsequent series.



It strikes me that your views on cruisers don't diverge much from TNG. I am not sure it is possible to build Defiant en masse. It doesn't become a concept until TNG S3 [DS9 pilot], I believe.

For destroyers, something is likely possible. But it would have to be a cheap, pre-Defiant. Something that "gets the job done" without being fancy. So we have to decide what that job is.

Most Starfleet vessels have some or many capabilities that are not relevant in wartime. So many of those ships fighting the Borg cube at Wolf 359 had science decks, planetary sensor pods, vast shuttle bays, experimental warp drives, and exploratory capabilities that did not help very much in the battle. So we'd want to design Starfleet cruisers that don't have irrelevant attributes.


Admittedly, the Intrepid-class is very capable for its role. Probably overbuilt, with those bio-neural gel packs. The Nova is an excellent replacement for the Oberth, but is not generally available during TNG / DS9.







*[I feel that a better "Enterprise" series would have explored more the contradictions between the exploratory and military aspects, being embodied directly in agencies such as UESPA and Earth Starfleet.

For example, Enterprise [let's face it, a different ship really] would have been launched by UESPA to follow up on its initial probes and colonization missions. In a more sober series, a "mission" could take half a season, and "Enterprise" would be part of a flotilla. It doesn't have the capabilities to do all the jobs.

Just following up on one colony could take like, six episodes. There are fewer colonies to explore in that era, more intrigue, and it takes longer to travel between them.

As things get more complicated, with the introduction of Klingons, Romulans, etc..., Archer's UESPA mission would start to really conflict with Starfleet. Who want a more defensive approach. And part of Archer's job would involve navigating these bureaucracies and the conflicts between them. UESPA funding is always in danger of being pulled, as politicians squabble back on Earth. [He'd probably need a political / diplomatic attache even more in this revised series.]

And because Earth is still recovering from world wars and the Eugenic War, the remnants of nation-state federations that exist on United Earth are jockeying for position, prestige, contracts, trying to push Enterprise in this direction or that. Altering it's mission. Pacific 201 explored this a little.]

 

[Checker222]

Here's what I think a light frigate / corvette would need:


Requirements


Engines - emergency speed as high as Galaxy or Nebula-class, but only for half the duration.
Otherwise, a cruising speed similar to the Galaxy. So that it can keep up, and traverse the Federation.

It also needs sufficient antimatter reserves to carry out meaningful patrols and reconnaissance missions. These extended reserves could be carried in the pod. As some configurations would be short-ranged.


Reasonably-comfortable crew quarters, but nothing fancy. One lounge, and the dining facilities that are required. Maybe one nicer set of quarters for traveling admirals / diplomats.


Basic navigation and stellar cartography.

Basic scientific consoles and a few labs. These could plug into powerful sensors on mission pods.

Basic sickbay.


The CFC [common frigate chassis] would have defensive phasers positioned throughout. Maybe the photon torpedo / probe launcher would be integrated with the chassis.


The chassis might contain a tiny shuttlebay with two shuttlepods. As it is not supposed to be shuttling back and forth much between ships or planets. Colony-support or disaster-relief pods could contain larger shuttlebays.

Conversely, if the ship is expected to respond to colony distress calls a lot, it would need a larger shuttlebay with 2-4 full-sized shuttlecraft.



A bow section that can be detached at shipyards, housing space for a deflector dish. Either an expensive deep-space dish, or cheaper one. (Some configurations don't require one).

The mission pod is very important. It has to be easily accessible from the ship, by turbolift, tubes, and ladders. There is also a direct [sealable] connection to the engine room.



Mission Pod


Patrol: Emergency evacuation shelters in the pod itself could carry the crew of a small ship, such as a 20-80 crew Miranda or Oberth. For larger evacuations, emergency inflatable shelters are deployed near stricken vessels. A larger ship could carry away those shelters.

The pod also contains antimatter reserves and other supplies for the longer missions. Maybe additional long-range communications.


Tactical: Obviously, this would contain at the very least more provisions for firing photon torpedoes and phasers. The pod itself might contain weapon emplacements.


Planetary research: This would contain what Oberth-class ships are expected to carry, things like large planetary sensor arrays. Possible additional labs and equipment.


There would also be medical, cargo, AWACS, disaster relief, colony-support, maybe even diplomatic pods.

Without the pods, it would basically function as a tug. In its most basic form, it could be an in-system tug.



Combat

The ship is not primarily designed for combat. It's more about patrol. An OPV.


The common-chassis should have enough weapons to defeat a Bird-of-Prey. [B'rel-size.] That is the kind of vessel it is likely to encounter when investigating sabotage of Starfleet assets.

Anything larger, it runs away. That's why it needs the high emergency speed, even if it's limited-duration. If it can get a Romulan Warbird chasing it for 5 minutes, that's going to alert nearby ships of a Romulan incursion.


With the weapons pod, it can be a useful supplementary vessel in a fleet formation. This would likely occur inside Federation space, where a battlegroup is being assembled.



Appearance

I am thinking about requirements, which is where appearance would come from. Likely a TNG-styled Oberth, in the sense of an engineering+saucer chassis with an underslung pod. Attached much more directly than with the Oberth. Conformal, really.

An alternative, still very similar, would be like the Vulcan Warp Sled. The detacheable part would be the mission-module. The warp-chassis would likely still need a saucer.



You'd want this to be built throughout the Federation at lower-tier shipyards. Things that were building Oberths, and the yards previously building Constitution / Miranda. So it would have a length of about 300 m max, 275 would be better. The chassis fitting in 120-150m Oberth-class docks would be even better, if they exist. The pod does not have to be attached to the chassis if it is under refit.


Really, the ship might be shaped like a stubby and streamlined blue whale, with engines sticking out, and the dorsal pod integral and conformal.

(Or the chassis could be a more traditional saucer and extension, like the Oberth. The chassis and pod together should probably be larger than the Oberth, as the ship needs to traverse larger distances more quickly.)

 

[Ithekro]

There are ships from Wolf 359 that fit that. Springfield-class and New Orleans-class would do. But we never see them.

 

[Checker222]

And that's the issue. We never see them. Why is that?

It feels subjectively like those modern TNG-era frigates don't exist in numbers. They aren't around to support the larger cruisers when they are needed.

It could be that the TNG 'highlighter fleet' largely existed as tech demonstrators. Proving the technology to be used in the Galaxy-class. Which is the 'capstone.' So everything is being directed towards producing an ideal Roddenberry fleet of 'heavy explorers.'

That would be consistent with what we see. Almost no early TNG-era smaller ships during the series run and DS9. The fleet is mostly TMP-era designs, with a few 'highlighter ships.'


This might also be because these ships are basically cruisers. The New Orleans is 340 metres, I think. Larger than a Constitution-class. Maybe a crew of 500 according to printed materials.

One of ideas behind this discussion is that we want to build a class of ship to take on mundane duties that larger ships Excelsior > Galaxy are seen doing. Like ferrying people around, carrying medical supplies, investigating a signal, anomaly, maybe even distress calls.

A more minimalist ship just optimized for these basic duties might not need to be 340 meters long with a crew of 500. More like 275 meters long, optional mission pods so it doesn't have to be able to do everything, and a crew of 40-200. Probably around 80. Could be significantly cheaper and faster to build and crew than New Orleans and Springfield.

That's what the video discussions are saying, for one thing. Starfleet doesn't have enough low-cost frigates.

 

[Boo-khat!]

And that's the issue. We never see them. Why is that?

Because the producers of TNG never wanted to spend budget money building new filming models if they could help it. That's why we always got reuses of old TOS movie models as guest ships/space stations/etc., or stock footage thereof. Or, Greg Jein would modify an already existing model to make it into another class, like the TUC executive shuttle into the Sydney class Jenolan, or the Romulan scout ship into the Romulan science vessel. Unless there was a specific in-story reason why they needed a new ship, we were only going to get reuses. And heck, not even then. The producers didn't even want to have a new model built for the Enterprise-C despite the need for one in-story. And the Pegasus was supposed to be a prototype vessel not that much older than the Enterprise-D, and we got a Grissom reuse instead.

But I get that you want an in-universe reason. The only thing I can think of as to why we never saw the 40-odd other Starfleet ships classes and instead saw plenty of old Excelsiors, Mirandas, and Klingon Birds of Prey, was because in the 80 years between the TOS films and TNG, most of them were lost during things like the Cardassian War, or that many of them were on deep space missions and not close to home.

 

[Takeru]

And that's the issue. We never see them. Why is that?

Real world reason: Building new ship models and shooting them costs money and the show had a budget, every dollar spend on that was a dollar they couldn't spend somewhere else. It's smart to reuse existing assets wherever they can.
And narratively you want the main characters to deal with the issue if the week, what would the Enterprise have done if there had always been a frigate, a science vessel, a diplomatic transport etc. right around the corner? it would have been very limiting if we had only seen the Enterprise on missions she was realistically supposed to do.

In universe reason: Space is big, really big. Even if we ignore the 8000 light years across number for the federation from First Contact and go with just 500 light years, even in that sphere of space there would be over a million stars, imagine a massive fleet of 50,000 ships and how thinly spread out they would be exploring, patrolling, transporting etc., in some cases it just might make more sense to use a galaxy class ship as a transport because she's already in the area instead of having everyone wait a week for an official transport to get there for example.

 

[Boo-khat!]

The problem with all the reuses of models and stock footage was that it made TNG look cheap. And another side effect was that the same ship ended up being used by multiple alien races (or even races from a completely different area of the galaxy). And then we have the bad scaling issues because the producers always wanted to use the Klingon BoP for every generic Klingon ship, despite instances where the scale is way off (i.e. the K'Vort class and the BoPs from "The Defector" which were as large as the Romulan Warbirds.)

So no, in many cases it wasn't smart to use existing assets. They only did it because they were cheap.

 

[DarthTimon]

The problem with all the reuses of models and stock footage was that it made TNG look cheap. And another side effect was that the same ship ended up being used by multiple alien races (or even races from a completely different area of the galaxy). And then we have the bad scaling issues because the producers always wanted to use the Klingon BoP for every generic Klingon ship, despite instances where the scale is way off (i.e. the K'Vort class and the BoPs from "The Defector" which were as large as the Romulan Warbirds.)

So no, in many cases it wasn't smart to use existing assets. They only did it because they were cheap.

I guess it was an unfortunate product of the times, CGI in its infancy, and the studio with expectations of sticking to a reasonable budget. We didn't really get large-scale fleet activity until DS9, by which time the CGI was to a stand that Trek's producers were willing to make good use of.

 

[Boo-khat!]

I guess it was an unfortunate product of the times, CGI in its infancy, and the studio with expectations of sticking to a reasonable budget. We didn't really get large-scale fleet activity until DS9, by which time the CGI was to a stand that Trek's producers were willing to make good use of.

You know what's ironic about that, though? Classic Doctor Who, which had far, far less of a budget than TNG, never once reused a model or used stock footage from a previous episode. So I'm not cutting the Trek producers any slack.

 

[Checker222]

But I get that you want an in-universe reason. The only thing I can think of as to why we never saw the 40-odd other Starfleet ships classes and instead saw plenty of old Excelsiors, Mirandas, and Klingon Birds of Prey, was because in the 80 years between the TOS films and TNG, most of them were lost during things like the Cardassian War, or that many of them were on deep space missions and not close to home.

If so many were lost during the Cardassian War, and deep space missions, that would have been an optimal time to begin planning a new TNG Starfleet. In fact, that's the exercise here.

It fits into the scenario being discussed: Starfleet reforms begin in the 2350s.



I find that the other not in-universe reason given in this thread, that the writers needed the Enterprise to be bereft of the support ships it should have had, to be unsatisfactory.

Good storytelling should show the main characters, and their organization [if it is Starfleet] acting competently. Making the Enterprise a ship sent alone into dangerous situations, without any support, is not the best writing. I argue that a show written about an intelligent Starfleet that acts rationally, and facing capable adversaries would be just as interesting.


I agree with everyone that the 'budgetary issues' Starfleet appeared to be facing in TNG were reflective of the real-life budgetary issues. I don't think that's in dispute. Even backstage materials from the 90s talked about the limitations set designers faced.

The goal here is to imagine that people within Starfleet wanted a better navy, and what that would look like for TNG.

I grant you that such a better navy was partially being realized throughout the later DS9 era, but they still had a ways to go.

 

[Takeru]

The problem with all the reuses of models and stock footage was that it made TNG look cheap.

It's the other way around, it helped make TNG look more expensive. You seem to be under the impression that the producers saved Paramount money by not commissioning new ship models all the time and doing new shots of them but that's not true.
The entire budget was spent, they could have build more ship models but that money would have had to come from somewhere and it would not have been additional money from Paramount. So every dollar spend on new ships would have meant fewer sets, fewer guest stars and background actors, fewer visual effects other than ships, reused costumes, fewer aliens with elaborate make-up etc., so what are you willing too give up to see a bunch of new starfleet and alien ships? Because there was no way too get those in addition to everything else we got, we would have gotten it in place of something.

So no, in many cases it wasn't smart to use existing assets. They only did it because they were cheap.

Cheap implies they refused to spend money, like I said they did not do that. What you disagree on is how the budget was allocated.

You know what's ironic about that, though? Classic Doctor Who, which had far, far less of a budget than TNG, never once reused a model or used stock footage from a previous episode. So I'm not cutting the Trek producers any slack.

You complained that reusing assets made TNG look cheap and now you cite classic Doctor Who as a positive example? As much as I adore that show, it looked cheap AF.

 

[Boo-khat!]

It's the other way around, it helped make TNG look more expensive. You seem to be under the impression that the producers saved Paramount money by not commissioning new ship models all the time and doing new shots of them but that's not true.
The entire budget was spent, they could have build more ship models but that money would have had to come from somewhere and it would not have been additional money from Paramount. So every dollar spend on new ships would have meant fewer sets, fewer guest stars and background actors, fewer visual effects other than ships, reused costumes, fewer aliens with elaborate make-up etc., so what are you willing too give up to see a bunch of new starfleet and alien ships? Because there was no way too get those in addition to everything else we got, we would have gotten it in place of something.


Cheap implies they refused to spend money, like I said they did not do that. What you disagree on is how the budget was allocated.


You complained that reusing assets made TNG look cheap and now you cite classic Doctor Who as a positive example? As much as I adore that show, it looked cheap AF.

You have completely misunderstood my point.

First, reusing assets is a move to save money, but it got to a point where it became ridiculous. The producers not wanting an Enterprise-C model built when the story specifically called for it? That’s being cheap. Using a Klingon BoP for a ship that’s meant to be as large as the Romulan warbird? That’s being cheap. Reusing stock footage of the Regula One space station and Spacedock, but scaling them up to ridiculous proportions to scale with the Enterprise-D? That’s being cheap.

And I cited Doctor Who precisely because it was a cheaply made production, yet every time they needed a new spaceship model, they built one, did not use it again for different unrelated aliens, and did not use stock footage of said model again. That’s not being cheap despite the production having much less of a budget than TNG had.

 

[Paul Weaver]

Ships should never be sent alone on exploration missions. They require a small flotilla, or at least pairs. There could be a dedicated diplomacy/exploration vessel, and a warship ("escort") to protect it. Several TNG episode "problems" would have been solved if multiple starships were present.

The Dolphin - the first scientific voyage by the Royal Navy - was alone. HMS Beagle carried Darwin on his voyage as a sole ship. Cook's first voyage on the Endeavour was a sole ship. Captain Bligh sailed on a lone ship - the Providence and the Bounty. Amunsen, Shackleton, Scott all traveled on lone ships to Antarctica.

 

[valkyrie013]

Hmm, Interesting Ideas.


I'm going by this "Time" of 2260-ish that your suggesting.

For your question of why is a galaxy class running errands.. It may be, because its going in that direction, or is the only ship nearby, as it would be faster then "ordering" a smaller ship to come over to do it. Its a big fleet, but also space is vast and Warp takes time to get from A to B.

your other notes..
Why do they mostly build cruisers like the Excelsior? because they can do everything. Once you decide to specialize, you limit yourself. Sure you have specialized ships like Science Ships, Colony support, and even patrol ships. But the primary mission is exploration and a secondary of defense. You have larger cruisers that are well armed that can take on a variety of tasks, from Science, colony support and even patrols.

Your Frigate design is a bit small. With the Galaxy class, your going in the direction of "Hotel In space" look. There is ample resources, it doesn't have to be small, compact and uncomfortable.

A frigate is like a Miranda class size. Small but capeable, and comfortable. Will you have huge atriums? no, but its not 4 bunks to a room small.

 

[DSG2k]

Two quick notes:

1. The start of the TNG era featured ship type nomenclature . . . Tryla Scott's frigate, Walker Keel's heavy cruiser, et cetera. That was presumably a holdover or active from the assorted border skirmishes just prior to TNG. We didn't hear such terminology again until the Dominion War.

2. Operationally, we don't really know what any of it means. We've seen ships with funny doodads sticking off but, for the most part, every ship is a multirole vessel capable of every job, limited only by size. Everyone has the same munitions, for the most part, and they all seem capable of similar sensor mounting. The Defiant and a runabout could do wacky science missions, for example. Other than colony/transport ships, truly specialized vessels are rarely a thing, which is another reason (along with the maintenance nightmare) that the overly plentiful UFP classes make no sense.