Denobulan, Vulcan and human sexuality; bonding

[Penguin]

We do know that Trip loves T-Pol as he told T-Les he did in Home.

So if t-Pol needed help with her adiction then Trip would have been the best one to help her.

Personally I never liked that damned Addiction anyway. Writers jerked the T-Pol character around so much. Mae he look weak in many ways when they could have had a strong female character in the series.

The Bond. I still belivee that it was the Love of Trip and T-POl that gave the bond it's life and Power. I think the bond symbolizes the T/TP love.

This bond was extremely powerful. Extended over five light years. It joined Trip's and T-Pol's mind over that distance. When T-Pol was meditating in her white room (which was in her mind) trip enters the white room but he is on the comunbia which is in dry dock on earth five light years away.

Now five light years is not five steps or five yards or five blocks or just around the corner. It measures a distance of several trillion miles. that is Trillion with a"t". Do the math if you don't bellive me. A Photon of light travels at a speed of 186,000 miles per sec/per sec work it out. So their love was very strong indeed. I have an idea that the writers iddn't consider the speed of light when they wrote that.

Me prattling

 

[angie]

The addiction was the only they could sell us on T'Pol doing a 180 change.

 

[Mach5]

The Bond. I still believe that it was the Love of Trip and T-Pol that gave the bond it's life and Power.

I don't think that the bond was the result of a single sexual encounter (that would have been seriously dumb, like in that VOY episode...).
IIRC, the Vulcan mating bond is something that takes time to develop (that's why vulcan newlyweds are expected to reside together for at least a year).
With Trip and T'pol, it was a result of their long intimacy, which began long before "Harbinger" (yep, the infamous neuropressure had a lot to do with it, it was pretty intimate after all). Plus, it was made pretty clear in "Home" that they shared a genuine affection for one another. Without all that, I seriously doubt that they would have bonded.
(The last two ENT novels expand on the subject, but that's probably for the Trek-Lit board).

 

[Penguin]

Mach5, not wanting to be arguementative but:

In bound T-Pol told Trip "it has long been believed tyhat when a Vulcan mates (has Sex) a Physic bond is created."

She did not say when a Vulcan mates and lives together with her mate for a year a Bond is created."

One Sexual encocunter would be nough to crearte the Bond it would take time for the bond to become complete.

Trip and T-Pol lived together after a fashinon on Enterprise for a year after mating. Since the bond did exist and was evident when Trip appeared in t-Pol's whirte room wh8ile he was a hel of along distance away.

In home they were more than affectionate. Trip admitted that he loved T-Pol in that episode and T-Pol seemed to feel more that affection for Trip although she never said so.

Actually I feel that the writers screwed up everything starting with
Harbinger right through Terra Prime.

Peronally I believe that anything that can operate over several trillion miles is a lot more than affection.

 

[Mach5]

Mach5, not wanting to be argumentative but:

In bound T-Pol told Trip "it has long been believed that when a Vulcan mates (has Sex) a Physic bond is created."

I don't know... I think there has to be more than just sex.
For example, what if a Vulcan get's raped? Does that mean that he/she would bond with a rapist?
And another thing. Why would T'pol get into the one night stand (exploration of human sexuality, whatever) with Trip, if there was a risk of a psychic bond being formed?

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

The interpretation of the word "mate" may not be so cut and dried.

From "Bound":

T'Pol: There's a long-held belief that when a Vulcan mates, there's a shared psychic bond.

Trip: We didn't mate.

Trip knows they had sex, so apparently he's referring to something else.

Also, when T'Pol refers back to her night with Trip in "E2" and "The Forgotten," she uses the term "sexual relations," not "mate."

According to the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, another definition of the word "mate" is "to unite in marriage." T'Pol and Trip could be using the term in this general way--i.e., the establishment of a longterm relationship/commitment--in the "Bound" scene. The dialogue could easily have been written more clearly, but perhaps it was kept vague on purpose, to be left open to interpretation.

 

[angie]

I think T'Pol assumed her P'Naar's would interfere with any bonding though she still was allowed to marry Kos.Also at that point I think little was know about Vulcans being with Vulcans. The whole thing was sloppy engineered in part by people who had little interest or knowledge in Vulcan rituals.The fact that Bound(originally written by 2 writers who know their Vulcans) to give us a crappy episode says alot to me.

 

[commodore64]

I'm a committed Archer/T'Pol fan and I wish they had just decided to either go with a real romance (or nothing at all ) with Trip and T'Pol!

The back and forth will they/won't they thing was very frustrating to watch. Instead of writing a compelling story it ended up coming across to me most of the time as being not out of place on a bad soap opera. I have Days of Our Lives for that, I didn't need to see that kind of thing on Enterprise!

Agreed! I thought the very best scene between Trip/T'Pol was in Terra Prime, not when he offered to make her a new baby, but when she comforted him. It was a nice moment, even for an A/T'Per like me.

Hard, sure. Writing isn't a cakewalk. But impossible? Nah.

Sorry. my comment was a direct response to yours (that you thought T/T'P was going somewhere after season 3); I did not.

As to March 5's cormment, I thought T/T'P was the worst relationship Star Trek had to offer. I have to admit, though, they haven't offerend many good relationships, imo. I have yet to see a relationship other than Spock/Saavik or Riker/Troi where people are friends who develop something more. (And with Spock/Saavik, they "did it" because it was logical without really much happening in canon othen than Pon Farr.) I liked Picard/Crusher (not a couple), too. To me, it's important characters are friends first and connect that way.

To be fair, I don't remember anyone telling T'Pol, "Y'know, I'd like you if you were more emotional." I think she came up with that idea herself.

Yeah, but I kept seeing Trip say things like "reading that bible of yours" in season 4. Lines like that really didn't sit well with me.

And I do think that T'Pol drove Archer batty at first.

For sure! I would say she drove him batty into season 2 -- sometimes in a way that confused him and sometimes in purely a "why did I ask her to stay?" way.

I didn't think of them as a potential couple, because of Archer's strong moral center and sense of ethics; I don't believe he would ever have crossed that line. But I liked watching the progression of their professional and personal relationship, since it represented such growth for both of them.

We didn't know until Home he had any moral issues with dating someone under his command. I thought A Night in Sickbay actually opened the door.

Another way to show the consequences--the writers were kind of trying that: T'Pol having trouble controlling her emotions. When I saw T'Pol's struggles in "Home," I was getting ready for a Spock-like inner battle, logic vs. emotions, T'Pol trying to come to terms with emotions she hadn't been trained to handle...I think it would have been compelling. But one mind-meld later, poof! no Pa'nar, no emotional wigouts, no more compelling inner conflict. *sigh* Too bad.

I think the problem with T'Pol in season 4 is she was all over the map from SF on. You're right. It would've made sense if they decided to do that, but she seemed normal in some episodes and not normal in others, thus hard to get a read on what was happening. Also, it's great to *show* consequences, but they needed some dialogue to make it concrete. For example, I thought T'Pol didn't act normal in Harbinger and other episodes, but I didn't know the degree of not normal (drugged up) she was until they showed me in Damage that she'd been taking drugs and then revealed why (when she talked with Phlox).

 

[Mach5]

As to March 5's comment, I thought T/T'P was the worst relationship Star Trek had to offer. I have to admit, though, they haven't offered many good relationships, imo. I have yet to see a relationship other than Spock/Saavik or Riker/Troi where people are friends who develop something more.

Riker and Troi had a very passionate love affair long before the "Encounter at Farpoint," remember?

Yeah, but I kept seeing Trip say things like "reading that bible of yours" in season 4. Lines like that really didn't sit well with me.

I doubt Trip meant anything bad by that, he simply wanted to point out that T'pol has been burying herself in Kir'shara and by doing that, pushing people (him in particular) away.

We didn't know until Home he had any moral issues with dating someone under his command. I thought A Night in Sickbay actually opened the door.

I didn't know bad episodes opened doors (whatever). Anyway, the very idea of a captain dating a subordinate (let alone his XO) always sickened me, and no, Picard is not an exception (neither are Janeway and Chakotay).
Captains are supposed to make life and death decisions all the time, decisions that involved choosing whom to put in (and in what kind of) jeopardy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but banging one of his officers kinda makes the captain lose his objectivity, doesn't it?

 

[commodore64]

I think you have an accidental double post.

Riker and Troi had a very passionate love affair long before the "Encounter at Farpoint," remember?

I do. But throughout TNG, they managed to be friends, even while she was dating Worf. I think friendship is always the basis of real love. Err, both on and off-screen it works.

I doubt Trip meant anything bad by that, he simply wanted to point out that T'pol has been burying herself in Kir'shara and by doing that, pushing people (him in particular) away.

I don't know if that would be the way I'd write it if I intended to show they care about each other. Why not say, "You seem pretty interested in Vulcan since your trip. I'd love to learn more about it."

I didn't know bad episodes opened doors (whatever). Anyway, the very idea of a captain dating a subordinate (let alone his XO) always sickened me, and no, Picard is not an exception. Captains are supposed to make life and death decisions all the time, decisions that involved choosing whom to put in (and in what kind of) jeopardy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but banging one of his officers kinda makes the captain lose his objectivity, doesn't it?

I didn't find ANIS a bad episode. And if Harbinger counts as canon, I'm afraid so does ANIS.

Anyway, I find the idea of a captain dating a subordinate intriguing ... especially for the first starship vessel. I would think perhaps Archer's experience would've helped determie how future captains deal with the situation. Why does Kirk feel so strongly that he has to walk alone? Also, many A/T'Pers feel they shouldn't have shown a relationship during the show, but really only lead up to one.

Besides, Trip reports to T'Pol and she has to make life and death decisions about him. What's the difference?

 

[Captain X]

How it was written and the chemistry between the actors, mostly. But then he never brought up TnT, so it's an assumption on your part that he'd be a fan of that 'ship either.

 

[Mach5]

Besides, Trip reports to T'Pol and she has to make life and death decisions about him. What's the difference?

There's a huge difference. Captain is the highest authority on the ship, responsible for everyone, superior to everyone, and dependent on everyone's loyalty (which is a crucial component that makes everything on the ship function smoothly and properly). A ship depends on cohesion, which is also one of captains responsibilities. Now, remember the effect Picard's little romance in "Lessons" had on the crew? Not even Riker was happy about it.
The bottom line is, when a commanding officer does something like this, the crew starts to question him, his ability to make decisions, and his objectivity. Archer knew this, so did T'pol.

Tucker and T'pol are IMO a lot more similar to Riker and Troi, and although technically she is his superior, they never really felt like a superior and a subordinate. They were almost always depicted as equals, and as a team. In fact, when they worked together in engineering (Tucker's domain), which was more then often, there was even an impression that he was the one in charge.

How it was written and the chemistry between the actors, mostly.

Yeah that too, but I wasn't gonna mention that because I didn't think it was appropriate (didn't want to be blamed for starting shipper wars )

 

[Penguin]

Someone brought uup Breaking the Ice Episode.

Can anyone explain to me what was meant when at the end of the Episode T-Pol had a slice of Pecan Pie in her quarters that she was looking at while meditating?

Were the writers hinting that there would be more Trip and T-Pol in future episodes.

I have wondered about that for a long time.

Don't want to start any fights but at no time shold have T-Pol been in the Enterprise chain of command, first officer or superior to Trip.

Trip was the second highest ranking Human officer on the Enterprise and thee Enterprise was a human Starship in a human organization, Starfleet. so he was de facto first officer, XO and Chief Engineer.

T-Pol was not a human officer and even if she were a ten star admiral in the Vulcan military she had no rank or status on a human Starship. It would be against regulations and protocol for Archer to say she was his first officer. Trip should not have been reporting to her nor her subordinate. T-Pol should never had been in command of the Enterprise at any time. she had no command experience at all whereas Trip did even if it was just in Engineering.

 

[Mach5]

Someone brought up Breaking the Ice Episode.

Can anyone explain to me what was meant when at the end of the Episode T-Pol had a slice of Pecan Pie in her quarters that she was looking at while meditating?

T'pol was (by Vulcan standards) rebellious in nature, and pecan pie represented her curiosity and willingness to embrace different ideas.

Were the writers hinting that there would be more Trip and T-Pol in future episodes.

Possibly, but at that point in time, all options were still on the table.

T-Pol was not a human officer and even if she were a ten star admiral in the Vulcan military she had no rank or status on a human Starship.

T'pol was de facto an acting first officer, and therefore Trip's superior. That much is indisputable.

 

[Penguin]

Mach 5, I don't know what military you were in but I was in the U.S.
military (Air Force) and there is no way on Gods Green Earth that a foreign officer from a foreign country was ever going to be in ommand of U.S. troops when all U.S. Officers were alive and in good health.

T-Pol could not be acting first officer simply because Trip was the second highest Human Officer on a human Starship and thus he was defacto firsrt officer and nothing could change that. Certainly not Archer. he would not have the authority to appoint T-Pol as acting first officer because the real first officer (Trip) was on board. If there were no other officers available (dead or incapacited) then Archer might be able to appoint T-Pol acting first officer but that too is doubful because there would probaly still be functioning human officers available.

Military changes very slowly so even in the 22nd century what goes today would go at that time. T-Pol simply could not be acting first officer (at least in real life)

Of course given the Crap that TPTB came up with regarding t-Pol as first Officer:

Season three she resigned from the Vulcan military so she was a civilain on board Enterprise as she was not in Star Fleet or a Star Fleet Officer. Yet they had Archer introducing her as his First Officer and she was in command of Enterprise when Archer was not on board.

that would have been confusing as hell for the crew. they would know she was a civilian and a Vulcan to boot. they would obey a Star Fleet Officer, Trip and not her. there might be a few who would say that Archer said to obey her but more would not and would know that Star Fleet would back them up.

In the fourth season t-Pol was accepted into Star Fleet and given a commision as a full commander but Trip still outranked her as he had time in service and time in grade on her so she would not be first officer then either.

so at no time in the series would t-Pol be acting or first officer, period.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Penguin, it may not sit well with you, but T'Pol was the First Officer of Enterprise. Period. That was established on the show.

As far as I can tell, T'Pol's rank has nothing to do with the thread topic. Let's move on.

 

[Penguin]

Hopeful when was that established on the show. I don't doubt you it is just that I have heard that the Vulcans wanted T-Pol appointed first officer and I have never seen that episode.

siince it is a Tv show anything is possible so t-Pol being acting first officer would be par for the course.

Still in real life it couldn't and wouldn't happen. But then real life is not TV is it.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

What part of "Let's move on" do you not understand, Penguin?

Okay. Final words on this off-topic sidebar:

1. In "Broken Bow," after Archer is injured, T'Pol takes command because she outranks Trip.

T'Pol: My Vulcan rank [Sub-commander in "BB"] supersedes yours.
Trip: Apples and oranges. This is an Earth vessel. You're in no position to take command.
T'Pol: As soon as we're through here, I'll contact Ambassador Soval. He'll speak to your superiors and I'm certain they'll support my authority in this situation.

Since no one, including Archer, makes a stink about T'Pol being higher-ranking than Trip, for the duration of the run of the series, we can assume that Soval and Starfleet agreed with T'Pol's statement.

2. Archer commonly referred to T'Pol as his science officer. He did not commonly refer to her as his Acting First Officer. Whenever Archer was off the ship and T'Pol and Trip remained on board, T'Pol was in command. Do the math.

3. At startrek.com, CBS/Viacom/Paramount's official Star Trek site, on T'Pol's character page, her assignment is listed as "First Officer, Earth starship Enterprise NX-01."

4. What happens in real life doesn't necessarily have any bearing on what happens in a science fiction TV show set in the 2150s. DEAL.


If you wish to discuss this subject further, do so in another thread. You will now stop spamming up this thread, please, or there will be...trouble.

 

[Penguin]

As you will Hopefullromantic. Did not think I was spamming but will certainly drop the subject since if offends you.

Pls continue to keep me in line in furure.

 

[gblews]

And her morning-after characterization of that night with Trip as "exploring human sexuality"? I didn't buy it. By the end of that scene, I don't think Trip bought it either, bless his heart. I think T'Pol was backpedaling to keep from admitting that she had gotten in way over her head, emotionally speaking, and didn't know how to deal with it.

Just my .02 I'll bite. Then why didn't she attempt to restart a relationship with Trip when he gave her ample opportunities to do so?

I think she actually did try, in her own Vulcan-like way of course. At least we did see her awkward little attempts to move closer to Trip (post Trell) in the latter part of season 3 after that little nudge from old T'Pol in E2.

I thought she started in Countdown after Trip busted her for acting emotionally while they were trying to figure out the Xindi spheres. Her move toward him continued in ZH when she told Trip some intimate information about herself. It came to a head in Home when she invited him to Vulcan.

So I think she did begin to make overtures that indicated she was open to their getting closer which, considering their intimate history and the nature of their interactions, would logically lead to a more overt romantic relationship. Her meeting OTP seemed to change everything, at least with respect to Trip.

Thats what I got from watching the end of season 3.