Declaring Ethnicity

[Jedi_Master]

There are different forms and different kinds of racism in this country, but we only focus on the one we never really focus about the others.

Chuckle.

When you are bleeding out of your carotid artery, you don't ask the doctor to treat your sprained ankle.

You focus on what is causing you the most damage, then work your way through the rest.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

There are different forms and different kinds of racism in this country, but we only focus on the one we never really focus about the others.

What form of racism is getting all the attention, and what other forms do you feel are being neglected? It's hard to discuss without specifics.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Which is a thing white people love to say because it's supposed to get all those pesky non-white people to stop talking about race. We were more than happy to be all about race when we could use it to subjugate, enslave, and oppress. Now that other people have taken the concept for themselves and use it to identify in solidarity with one another, well, whitey's not too happy with that, so let's try to erase it.=

While I tend to lean towards your argument rather than against it, there's an implicit accusation that RJ (or anyone else who shares his view) would be in favor of using race to enslave, subjugate, or oppress. Now I certainly don't think you're suggesting that, but it can come off that way unless one is a little more careful.

 

[thestrangequark]

That's the tragedy of the whole thing: people who are ignorant of racial privilege don't want to oppress -- usually it's quite the opposite, and I doubt they have a racist bone in their bodies. But shutting down the conversation about race by literally denying its existence is in itself oppressive. Denying race isn't a malicious action, it's a privileged action. It's a case of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

 

[Sector 7]

With the exception of a very few government forms, US law states that no one may be required to provide ethnicity. Other laws in other nations may vary.

IMHO, no one should be forced to choose. I am Scotch, Irish, German Jew, Pennsylvania Dutch and 1/4 Cherokee. I am often at a loss as to which of the narrow definitions to choose.

 

[RJDiogenes]

^^ Joel, nobody is saying that racism doesn't exist. Of course it does. And one of the best ways to fight it is through education, and that includes educating people that there is just one human race.

Which is a thing white people love to say because it's supposed to get all those pesky non-white people to stop talking about race.

No, it's what liberals have been saying for decades, because it's true. It's a shame to see the Left Wing abandoning its principles like this. I don't know where you get the idea that anybody is trying to stop "non-whites" (talk about declaring ethnicity 1930s style) from talking about race-- the opposite is true.

It's true, we're all human,

That's good. Focus on that.

That doesn't mean we should encourage people to give up their hard-fought identities, because that's what you are suggesting.

No, I'm suggesting science is real. You're confusing genetics with culture.

If anything is going to solve racism, it won't be white people declaring "race doesn't exist except in that we're all the human race." I guarantee it.

You're wrong. Education is exactly what will solve the problem of racism. But I guarantee that validating, legitimizing, normalizing, and perpetuating racism will not solve the problem of racism.

The level to which you are disregarding what I wrote is just insulting. I addressed the biological, psychological, and sociological contributors to racism. I countered your claims on each of these levels and explained why I think they are ethically misguided, ultimately causing more harm than good...and you ignored it, which is again, a privilege that POC don't generally have. A debate is only pointless to the closed minded. I'm willing to hear and consider counter arguments, if you're not, just say so, but don't go misrepresenting what I wrote.

Countered what claims? You stated the obvious about the reasons for racism and then argued with things I never said.

Where did I say that? In fact, I said quite the opposite:

Yup, you agreed with me and then went on to argue with things I never said.

You are not breaking down barriers, you are shutting down discussion.

Mixed metaphors aside, I already know it's pointless to discuss anything with you, so this is the end of it.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Isn't it funny how you, as a man, know sexism better than women themselves, and you, as a white person, know racism better than people of colour themselves.

How... privileged of you.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Which is a thing white people love to say because it's supposed to get all those pesky non-white people to stop talking about race. We were more than happy to be all about race when we could use it to subjugate, enslave, and oppress. Now that other people have taken the concept for themselves and use it to identify in solidarity with one another, well, whitey's not too happy with that, so let's try to erase it.=

While I tend to lean towards your argument rather than against it, there's an implicit accusation that RJ (or anyone else who shares his view) would be in favor of using race to enslave, subjugate, or oppress. Now I certainly don't think you're suggesting that, but it can come off that way unless one is a little more careful.

I don't mean to imply anyone here is supportive of slavery, just describing the historical context that has left us with our current conception of race. What I am suggesting is that white people who don't want to talk about race and only want to believe in "one human race" are effectively trying to repeat history: erase the identities of others that they find inconvenient or uncomfortable. The current form is less malicious but still quite hurtful and inconsiderate.

^^ Joel, nobody is saying that racism doesn't exist. Of course it does. And one of the best ways to fight it is through education, and that includes educating people that there is just one human race.

Which is a thing white people love to say because it's supposed to get all those pesky non-white people to stop talking about race.

No, it's what liberals have been saying for decades, because it's true. It's a shame to see the Left Wing abandoning its principles like this. I don't know where you get the idea that anybody is trying to stop "non-whites" (talk about declaring ethnicity 1930s style) from talking about race-- the opposite is true.

Except you will gladly demean others by saying there's only one human race.

No, I'm suggesting science is real. You're confusing genetics with culture.

No, I'm pointing out that white people conflated genetics with culture, and while there is no inherent link between the two, they've been treated the same for long enough that certain cultures are associated with certain ethnic groups based around their skin color and appearance. This is why "black culture" exists--not because being black automatically imparts someone with particular cultural traits, but because white people have marginalized and denigrated black people and denied them a place in white culture for so long that black people developed their own distinct culture.

The piece of the puzzle you seem to keep missing is that historical white oppression of black people is a crucial component of black American culture. It is central to the black experience, because its effects continue to linger and hurt people, and white Americans continue to deny that it's happening. So, you'll pardon me if "race doesn't exist because science" doesn't handwave the problems we're talking about.

You're wrong. Education is exactly what will solve the problem of racism. But I guarantee that validating, legitimizing, normalizing, and perpetuating racism will not solve the problem of racism.

Did you just accuse me of validating, legitimizing, normalizing, or perpetuating racism? Because you're the one who is quite clearly doing that. Here's a clue for you, since you seem to be in desperate need of one: wishing racism away, as you have been doing, will not make it happen. Education is important, yes. So is correct inequities, and having a serious dialogue. There's a whole lot of heinous shit white Americans still won't own up to, and centuries of black oppression we still haven't taken a serious look at correcting--injustices that have occurred within living memory, and some of which continue to occur today. Until we do that, there can be no healing, there can be no harmony, and there can be no end to racism.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

That's the tragedy of the whole thing: people who are ignorant of racial privilege don't want to oppress -- usually it's quite the opposite, and I doubt they have a racist bone in their bodies. But shutting down the conversation about race by literally denying its existence is in itself oppressive. Denying race isn't a malicious action, it's a privileged action. It's a case of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

Isn't it funny how you, as a man, know sexism better than women themselves, and you, as a white person, know racism better than people of colour themselves.

How... privileged of you.

Sorry, RJ, but TSQ and Iguana are right.

No, I'm suggesting science is real. You're confusing genetics with culture.

Of course people should be educated to understand that, genetically, there is only one human race. However, genetics isn't really the point. Racial identity and racism have way more to do with culture and history than with genetics. (I won't bother elaborating, because I just noticed that Robert Maxwell already has.)

 

[Nick086]

I think when they ask about what your race is which I'm sure has been explain before on here. I think it might have to do if company has diversity so that maybe they what to see what race you are. If your white, your white they don't care what your ethnicity is you hail from in old Europe. Now I've seen when someone is Hispanic they want to know which part of the Americas are you from? Like Mexico, Central America, South America, and the Caribbean (Like Puerto Rican and Dominican) Asian (South East Asian, Central Asian, Pacific Island). If your Native American they want to know what region you are from like Alaska, The Southwest, and Native American tribes in the Northeast. One application I saw they have Middle Eastern now which is mainly people from North Africa, Middle East, Iran, and Turkey.

 

[thestrangequark]

Mixed metaphors aside, I already know it's pointless to discuss anything with you, so this is the end of it.

WTF, man? Seriously. You're telling me I won't discuss things so you won't discuss things with me? I'm actually trying here. Again, if you don't want to talk about it that's fine, but take responsibility: it's not my fault if you're not willing to discuss something. Until then, because I'm stubborn as hell, and because I think this is an important topic, I'll keep trying:

When I said I countered your claims I was referring to the claim you made about science supporting your stance, which it seems to do if you ignore a lot of facts about people and their psychology, but upon scrutiny, it does not; you can't cite science by cherry picking what supports your ideology, that's just not how it works. You said biologically, we are all human -- I agree, that much is obvious. But that's the end of your acceptance of science, because that's the end of where facts agree with your ideology.

Psychology is also a science, race is real psychologically. Sociology is also a science, race is real sociologically.
Tribalism is inherent, in the sense that our biology informs our psychology, the foundations for the abstract and man-made concept of race are real biologically.

It's like you're looking at one corner of a massive painting, and claiming to deduce the whole picture: yeah, you've got the facts about the type of paint down right, but you're missing a whole lot of information that matters just as much. This is why I think science does not support your stance, if you disagree, or think the psychological and sociological factors are somehow unimportant, I'm curious as to why.

Like I said, you are obviously not racist, but I don't think you are as open about the issue as you think you are. I think that your post-racial ideology does more harm than good in a reality that is not actually post-racial. I think ignoring race is a stance based of privilege, and I believe it is wrong ethically, because it does real, tangible harm to people. If you disagree, I'm curious as to why. I am open to discussion, labeling me "pointless" to discuss with is not only untrue, but rude and hypocritical.

 

[May 20]

So, at what point do we say we want our future to be better? Yes, that was our past, which we cannot ignore and must teach our children about, and this is our present, which we currently must live with, but there is a better way to live with one another. Isn't there?

And don't we deserve to find that better way without tearing one another up in the process?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

So, at what point do we say we want our future to be better? Yes, that was our past, which we cannot ignore and must teach our children about, and this is our present, which we currently must live with, but there is a better way to live with one another. Isn't there?

And don't we deserve to find that better way without tearing one another up in the process?

You can't build a future on denying the past. That is the heart of the problem.

And "tearing one another up" is, frankly, an essential part of the process. It will not be painless, nor should it be. The issue is that the pain has overwhelmingly been felt by one segment of the population. It's time that everyone face it and own up to it, and it's not going to be comfortable or pleasant.

 

[May 20]

But no one is denying anything.

There are problems. There are solutions. Work on the solutions. And, no, we are supposed to be a civilized people. We don't have to tear one another up to work toward a better future.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

But no one is denying anything.

I think you'll find that is very much not the case.

For example, this book offers a perspective on slavery in the US that you almost surely didn't get in school. And we continue to deny the real inequities that slavery and its legacy have left us. There's a reason black Americans are much, much less wealthy than their white counterparts, and it isn't because they didn't work hard.

There are problems. There are solutions. Work on the solutions.

What solutions would you suggest?

And, no, we are supposed to be a civilized people. We don't have to tear one another up to work toward a better future.

This just sounds like an argument for everyone to calm down and not make such a fuss. I guarantee you that attitude never gets anything done.

 

[Nick086]

hmmmm I think we already finished Declaring Ethnicity and what it means..........

 

[RoJoHen]

Psychology is also a science, race is real psychologically. Sociology is also a science, race is real sociologically.
Tribalism is inherent, in the sense that our biology informs our psychology, the foundations for the abstract and man-made concept of race are real biologically.

So how do we find a balance? How do you reconcile the idea that we are all one human race with the fact that we also want to be able to identify with our ethnic background?

I'm one of those white males you guys keep rattling on about. I tend to fall into the same mindset at RJ and May 20. Maybe it's because, as a white mutt of mixed European heritage, I don't really identify with any ethnicity. People get into conversations about their lineage, and I usually say, "I'm from the suburbs." I've always found it bizarre how people cling to their ethnicities because I have never had any feelings like that before.

Maybe it's because I'm white that I've never had to identify with anything else. The world has never treated me like I belonged in a a different group. Call it white privilege if you want (I admit I wasn't familiar with the term until reading this thread). I guess I just don't know what to do about it.

I like everybody. I don't have a racist bone in my body. I have black friends and Arab friends and gay friends and *gasp* even some women friends! I long for the day when we have a Lesbian Atheist Black Midget president.

It's one thing to try and convince a racist that we should all be treated equally. How do you deal with someone like me, a very blatant non-racist who really doesn't give a shit about your ethnicity at all?

 

[Jedi_Master]

I am very good at Declaring Bankruptcy.

I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!

 

[thestrangequark]

So, at what point do we say we want our future to be better? Yes, that was our past, which we cannot ignore and must teach our children about, and this is our present, which we currently must live with, but there is a better way to live with one another. Isn't there?

And don't we deserve to find that better way without tearing one another up in the process?

Sure, we all agree that we want a better future, and we definitely all want racism to end. But racism is not our past, it's our present. If it were our past than the statistics in that comic I linked to wouldn't exist. If it were our past I wouldn't be having arguments with my coworkers about why it bothers me that the nation's capital's football team is named after a racist slur.

Can't a better way be teaching our children to value and celebrate our differences as much as we value and celebrate what unites us? We are richer as a species for our variety, and if we choose to, we can allow our differences to throw our common humanity into relief. I know that sounds naive and idealistic, but I think it's more pragmatic than "One Human Race."

Psychology is also a science, race is real psychologically. Sociology is also a science, race is real sociologically.
Tribalism is inherent, in the sense that our biology informs our psychology, the foundations for the abstract and man-made concept of race are real biologically.

So how do we find a balance? How do you reconcile the idea that we are all one human race with the fact that we also want to be able to identify with our ethnic background?

I think it's quite easy, really, because recognizing ethnic background doesn't have to be a negative thing.

I'm one of those white males you guys keep rattling on about. I tend to fall into the same mindset at RJ and May 20. Maybe it's because, as a white mutt of mixed European heritage, I don't really identify with any ethnicity. People get into conversations about their lineage, and I usually say, "I'm from the suburbs." I've always found it bizarre how people cling to their ethnicities because I have never had any feelings like that before.

That makes sense. So, put yourself into someone else's shoes. What do you think you would feel about your ethnicity if you were consistently directly and indirectly discriminated against because of it? What would you feel about your ethnicity if you knew that, simply because of it, you were less likely to get a job or get into college, and more likely to be the victim of violent crime or to go to jail? Do you think you might lend more importance to your race than you do as a white person?

Maybe it's because I'm white that I've never had to identify with anything else. The world has never treated me like I belonged in a a different group. Call it white privilege if you want (I admit I wasn't familiar with the term until reading this thread). I guess I just don't know what to do about it.

Well, that depends on what you want to do about it! Most people are unaware of how privilege affects them, and that's not their fault. Being aware can be enough. To bring people together we need empathy, and to empathize we have to try to understand other people's experiences. Recognizing that other people are marginalized because of their race, while we benefit because of ours is the best thing we can do (or in my case, as a mixed person, I get a bit of both).

Everyone is ignorant of something, ignorance isn't evil, it is willful ignorance that's evil. MLK Jr said, "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

I like everybody. I don't have a racist bone in my body. I have black friends and Arab friends and gay friends and *gasp* even some women friends! I long for the day when we have a Lesbian Atheist Black Midget president.

It's one thing to try and convince a racist that we should all be treated equally. How do you deal with someone like me, a very blatant non-racist who really doesn't give a shit about your ethnicity at all?

I'd ask you: How would you feel if the capital of your country had a major sports team named after a racist slur against your ethnicity, if institutionalized racism still contributed to the people of your ethnicity having the highest mortality rates and poverty rates in the country, if almost every time you saw a person of your ethnicity in the media, they were defined not by their character, but by stereotypes of their race, and then someone for whom these things aren't true tells you they don't give a shit about your ethnicity at all? Would you feel acknowledged, or dismissed?

Not giving a shit about ethnicity when it comes to being friends with someone, or loving them, or hiring them, or investigating them for a crime, or admitting them to school -- that's the goal, that's great. But giving a shit that race affects people means that at the very least, we won't accidentally dismiss them, and at the most, we can actively fight the continuing consequences of racism.

 

[Nick086]

Psychology is also a science, race is real psychologically. Sociology is also a science, race is real sociologically.
Tribalism is inherent, in the sense that our biology informs our psychology, the foundations for the abstract and man-made concept of race are real biologically.

So how do we find a balance? How do you reconcile the idea that we are all one human race with the fact that we also want to be able to identify with our ethnic background?

I'm one of those white males you guys keep rattling on about. I tend to fall into the same mindset at RJ and May 20. Maybe it's because, as a white mutt of mixed European heritage, I don't really identify with any ethnicity. People get into conversations about their lineage, and I usually say, "I'm from the suburbs." I've always found it bizarre how people cling to their ethnicities because I have never had any feelings like that before.

Maybe it's because I'm white that I've never had to identify with anything else. The world has never treated me like I belonged in a a different group. Call it white privilege if you want (I admit I wasn't familiar with the term until reading this thread). I guess I just don't know what to do about it.

I like everybody. I don't have a racist bone in my body. I have black friends and Arab friends and gay friends and *gasp* even some women friends! I long for the day when we have a Lesbian Atheist Black Midget president.

It's one thing to try and convince a racist that we should all be treated equally. How do you deal with someone like me, a very blatant non-racist who really doesn't give a shit about your ethnicity at all?

Hey I thought they like to be called little people?